Talk:Madoka Magica Episode 10: I Won't Depend on Anyone Anymore

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timelines

Are there only those listed timelines or coould it be that Homura repeated it more often, but this wasn´t shown since there weren´t many differences from the shown timelines? Judgin from what i saw the end may be that Homura repeats again since she also failed this time or Homura dies. --89.247.167.165 09:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The discrepancies in Timeline 4 lead me to think that there were more timelines than what was shown. I don't think Homura's personality would change that much in only 5 timelines either. Anyway, at this point of the story, that's basically :opinions: since we can't really prove one or the other --Homerun-chan 11:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
The first assumption was that Timeline 4 is ep1's dream sequence, and Timeline 5 is all the previous episodes. But there are slight differences between those (see Episode 10#Continuity to previous episodes), so there is nothing certain indeed. If I haven't overlooked something, there's no part in the article which would say "there are no other timelines". --KFYatek 11:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

on another note: also madoka´s strong personality isn´t like to break down in 5 loops. There is the possibility that every person who is caught in the loop has another personality then in the begining (maybe that´s why kyouko helped sayaka this time but in the others not). Kyubey meanwhile can transfer his mind to his other bodies, but he can´t keep his memory over the loops so his power is also restircted in this field. The loop story reminds me of the "Endless Eight" from Haruhi Suzumiya, were only 8 loops where shown but in reality there were 15,498 loops

At the end of Arc 1 it really is hard to say what happened as there is no conclusive evidence either way. I see that this article indicates that "Madoka dies without regrets in her heart, she remains pure and innocent in the end thus avoids the fate of becoming a witch"; however, what proof is there of this? In fact, I believe there is proof otherwise:

  • No evidence of a shattered Soul Gem or her destroying her own (Granted, there is no evidence of one intact either, or if she is just out of range of it... new theory?)
  • With that there are two other possible outcomes:
    • She was actually defeated in the fight as you can't die without your Soul Gem being destroyed which would indicate that the enemy would have been alive to destroy it at the end.
    • She turned into a witch as there is no visible remnant of her Soul Gem but a body is left in what we can only assume is the real world.
      • Evidence 1: Homura says that if you die in the reality marble your body is lost; hence, if she would have died her body wouldn't exist in the real world (that is if we are assuming the "reality" is the real world).
      • Evidence 2: Sayaka's body still existed because her Soul Gem turned into a witch outside of a reality marble. Now, granted it appears to have been sucked in after the transformation (as Kyouko caries it out) this would indicate that she likely would have turned into a witch and her body was not absorbed into the reality marble.

Opinions? SunnyJ 20:54, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


randomanon, yes, there is a hint that the story takes place in 2011. PROLOG IM HIMMEL 2011. --kFYatek 10:40, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

The issue with that is in the BD commentaries, they talk about how they used the runes thinking that they wouldn't be deciphered by fans. That's the reason they had "Homu" in Charlotte's space as something of an inside joke. Homura in the anime is of course never referred in-universe as "Homu." The same could be for 2011 where it's simply a reference to when the anime was released, and nothing to do with the in-universe setting. Again, you have the evidence of a futuristic setting that balances out any rune evidence. And there's also this from Shinbo in an interview, "Characters are living in a world like that. It might be a story of a near future, or a distant future."
Looking at further evidence, I think the time period is more likely May than March. As I explained previously late March, Japan schools wouldn't be in session. Furthermore, when Homura transfers in, it's clearly not on the first day...in fact the students interaction with their teacher makes it seem they've been in class together for a while. There's also this physical evidence: On the 16th, while Homura is still ill in the hospital, her window is wide-open and several cherry blossom petals fly in on a random breeze (this happens just prior to the calendar). Both are signs not of early March but closer to May. First, if you check the average weather, it's far more likely you'd have a day temperate enough for someone in the hospital to have their window wide open closer to May (75 F) than March (55 F). Then, when you look at the typical cherry blossom schedule for Japan, the cherry blossom season typically starts at the very end of March, goes to full bloom in early/mid April, and it's only after full bloom that you'd normally see petals flying around. March 16th would not make sense, but possibly May 16th would (although if it weren't for the calendar showing 31 days, I'd say April 16th makes the most sense). It also fits because when Homura attends school, the trees are still green but there's no more cherry blossoms, nor do we see any later. That would make sense if it was May 25th when the cherry blossom season is over than March 25th, when we should be seeing cherry blossoms at some point during the following weeks. Another piece of evidence is Madoka's father harvesting cherry tomatoes in ep 1 on Homura's first day. Given Japan's climate, that would not be happening at the end of March but rather, closer to May. --randomanon 11:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
The technology can be explained by the wish system (it ties into Kyubey's speech about magical girls accelerating human progress), but there's a variety of evidence here supporting late spring. Shinbo's "might be" comment also allows the possibility that they did certain things for artistic reasons instead of binding themselves to a precise time setting. I'll review the moon phases and figure out how to reorganize the timeline page to cover these alternatives without making it confusing. KM 04:03, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
If however you believe the events occurred in May and not March, it can't be 2011. The calendar would not match up. --randomanon 04:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Yeah. Maybe a table listing events and possible timings, with columns for "near future, or a distant future" and "present day, present time 2011" scenarios. Time to research patterns in moon phases over time and how common it is to have a Friday the 25th in a 31 day month. KM 04:57, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
The 25th falling on a Friday is not uncommon. Limiting it only to May, the first possible date is May 2012, then May 2018, followed by May 2029 which seems too far into the future. --Knon 08:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Ep10-calendar-BD.jpg
The kanji on the calendar seem legible in the BD. Can somebody transcribe and translate them? I got stuck after \('_')/ and (>.<) KM 10:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
The note on the 16th is 退院 taiin - "leaving hospital"; the one on the 25th seems 登校 toukou - "going to school" --kFYatek 14:18, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Tri4 came up with 退院 as well, which they came up basically with the same thing, translated as "discharge." The odd thing is they translated the 25th as "Mitakihara Middle School" which doesn't look like 見滝原中学校. I assume it's a liberal translation for attending school, so they agree with 登校. --randomanon 14:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Sayaka

Considering Sayaka's inferiority complex, is she actually afraid of Homura's bombs, or is she jealous of Homura's capabilities?

It's because if the bomb got hit her and the soul gem... You will guess what will happen next no~? Dandan550 04:07, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that both Madoka and Sayaka made contract before Homura attended to school. It seems Homura had the lowest position of the four because she joined them the latest, and Mami only asked her to change her way to fight rather than asking Sayaka to do so. (She could ask Sayaka to throw her cutlass in a distance to prevent damage from explosion.) Yorkwoo 01:05, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Next Episode Preview Image

E10endcardfigures.JPG

Anyone have any idea who/what the three shadowy figures on the upper left corner are? The one on the left almost looks like Kyoko, but not quite. Universalperson 17:01, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's a guess.
Ah, thanks! The red dot on the left figure was throwing me for a loop. Though that doesn't explain what that thing on the right is. --Universalperson 21:31, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Couldn't it be Sayaka's cape? Guil 21:51, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Probably, but then it's somehow flying over her head at an odd angle. If it is it's just...not good art. --Universalperson 22:01, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


Time-travel

However, in Episode 10, we learn that Kyuubey can only grant the ability to travel back in time. He is only part of the process to create it, so they do not posses the ability itself. The power of time travel rests only within Homura because of her wish.

When is this explained? Is it when Kyuubey talks of Homura's ability to overcome entropy? Elsa Maria 21:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

  • According to Kyuubey Puella Magi are an anomaly that his people cannot explain, their real powers come from the girl's wishes (and curse) fueled by their emotions, so Kyuubey exclaimed that Homura's wish surpassed entropy is a statement that Kyuubey knows that time travel can reverse entropy or could also be interpreted as Kyuubey being surprised. --Mutopis 20:51, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Death of Madoka

So we've been shown that witches can be shot/blasted to death, and are fully destroyed while their grief seeds remain intact.

But conversely, magical girls' bodies cannot be destroyed unless their soul gem is destroyed...according to Kyubey, anyway. I'm of the opinion that the information he gives is generally unreliable, to put it mildly. (To put it bluntly, I think Kyubey is a liar and has told multiple lies thus far.)

But let's work with these two rules for now.

So, in timeline 1, how exactly did Madoka die? Her body seemed to be intact... I didn't look for her soul gem but I suppose it must have been shattered by Walpurgia somehow? I didn't see how Mami died, either.

In timeline 3, what exactly did Homura shoot to mercy kill Madoka? Did she shoot her newly-transformed grief seed, or just shoot her still-transforming body? If Homura just shot Madoka's body to kill her, could she have possibly kept her grief seed from that timeline? If she shot the grief seed... well, how would shooting a grief seed affect a witch? I don't think that's been shown up to now. --76.199.66.130 00:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

  • In timeline 1, Mami and Madoka has their Soul Gems broken. In timeline 3, Homura shot Madoka's Soul Gem which was NOT yet a Grief Seed. --Universalperson 01:42, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
-The reason a magical girl's body can't be destroyed is that the soul gem can use magic to regenerate it eventually, as long as it has access to enough magic power. In TL1, it seems like Walpurgis shattered both of their soul gems offscreen, and Madoka and Walpurgis both dealt fatal damage to each other. What would happen when you shoot a grief seed is an interesting question, and I don't think we have any information about that yet. --KM 03:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I would like to know what information is there that indicates that Soul Gems were destroyed in TL1? I see evidence that likely this is not the case:

  • In TL1 they did not know that their soul's were actually in the Soul Gems (Kyuubey never told them as referenced by the surprised when Homura finds out in TL2) so knowing to destroy their own Soul Gem before they turned into a Witch is out of the question.
  • Second, its stated by Homura earlier in the series that if you die in the Reality Marble your body never returns to the real world; so if they both killed each other her body would not have returned to the real world as it would have been destroyed along with the reality marble.
-This assumes that the wrecked world -which is different than the Reality Marble that Wapluguris is fought in- is the real world which it has to be as the Reality Marble is destroyed when the Witch dies as shown in each episode.

This only leaves the possibility that she ultimately did turn into a witch and her witch form is likely off screen and Homura didn't see this occur; however, there isn't any proof to directly support this; however, there is proof to support the other outcomes didn't happen (unless we want to go with the idea that her body is simply out of range of her Soul Gem and her body was just in it's lifeless state). --SunnyJ 12:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

-In timeline 1 Mami's and Madoka's Soul Gems are never seen, implying they were broken. It's mentioned in episode 7 that magical girls can basically only die if their soul gems are broken; Kyubey says that's why he removes their souls in the first place, so they can regenerate their bodies even if they do suffer a lot of damage! --Universalperson 12:31, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- That is true that they can only die if their soul gems are destroyed; however, just because you do not see them does not imply they were broken. Additionally, if they were broken the most likely point in time they would have been broken would have been during Walpurgis's Night. Assuming that they both killed each other at the same time (destroying the witch / destroying Madoka's Soul Gem) her body would have been at that point still in the Reality Marble. As stated in Ep4 you don't leave a corpse behind if you die in the reality marble so the fact that her corpse still exists in the real world the likeliness of her Soul Gem being destroyed is lower than the likeliness of her having turned into a witch. --SunnyJ 18:13, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
It appears that Walpurgis Night is capable of existing outside of her barrier for reasons currently unknown; this should have been obvious as far back as episode 1 where Madoka LEAVES what is obviously a witch's barrier and enters the real world on top of a giant tree. And yes, not seeing the Soul Gems implies they were broken. If either of them became witches before the 2nd timeline, Homura would have known about it. Homura only learned magical girls could turn into witches at the end of the second timeline, when Madoka's Soul Gem became a Grief Seed right before her eyes. --Universalperson 18:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
You think shes leaving the Reality Marble when that happens? It's more likely that either she was just entering it, or she was entering the room where the actual Witch existed. If you look at previous Witches they had their own room or final area (Sayaka's witch as well as the second one). Now, yes its very likely it existed in both places, otherwise how did it cause damage to the real world; however, I'm fairly certain that was still inside the Reality Marble. Not seen = it was destroyed? Give me a break, if you're going to use that kind of logic not seen could also = the Witch wasn't destroyed... Cause we both never saw her beat it and never see it at the end of TL1 (though, I would agree that Homura would likely have seen something, but who knows if she would realize that it was her soul gem turning into a witch.. she could have been miles away when it happened...) --SunnyJ 22:35, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
>A corpse can be removed from a barrier, like when Kyouko kept Sayaka's body. Homura was there with it. The bigger issue is whether they were in a barrier or the real world. The post-battle wrecked world is the same in all timelines, including before and after Madoka became a witch, and after Walpurgis was confirmed to be destroyed in TL4. The lighting is very different from the Walpurgis battles, but the physical structure is the same. Since neither witch is alive at all times when we see the post-battle world, it must be the real world, and Madoka as a witch is existing in the real world. So either Walpurgis was also in the real world, or Madoka's corpse was preserved when the barrier closed.
> After a witch dies/is destroyed their area of influence disappears a short time later. The similar is seen with the Magical Girls in TL3 when Mami Kills Kyouko and Madoka kills Mami. Their power doesn't disappear instantly but a few seconds later, but it does disappear so likely they are no longer in at least that Witches Reality Marble. It is possible we could be in Madokas, that is true; however, with hos much it resembles the destruction of TL2 and TL3 when there is no Witch it has to be the real world like you say. Additionally, I don't see how your logic concludes that her corpse had to be preserved with it closed? As for seeing Madoka's witch in the other time lines at that point Homura is a full Magical Girl and as this is all basically from her perspective she is a Magical Girl at this point so she can sense them easier... She was not a Magical Girl in TL1 so she may not have seen it clearly; however, it is true that non Magical Girlw can see the distortion caused by them slightly... So its only logical that in all of them Homura would see her witch form but there's enough reasonable evidence to say she might not have seen it in TL1 (she never noticed when she walked into the Reality Marble in TL1 until she was in it, why didn't she see that one?) --SunnyJ 22:48, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
>Madoka as a witch wasn't present and was never seen by Homura in TL1, even though Homura was watching everything and that witch is too big to miss. So either Madoka's soul gem was destroyed, or her witch from was completely different from all other timelines (which doesn't make any sense), or the gem somehow got removed from her and taken away by Walpurgis (who would then have to stop rampaging, give up, and leave) or Kyuubey. The Walpurgis case only makes sense if her whole purpose was to steal Madoka's soul gem, which would mean she's either Kyuubey's minion or witch-Homura coming back in time for Madoka, since she appears even when Madoka isn't contracted yet. Kyuubey would want to push Madoka into using all her power and transforming asap, so he'd only capture and store her gem if Walpurgis had been defeated.
>That leaves us with three options: Gem destroyed, Walpurgis-witch-Homura taking the gem and leaving, or Madoka destroying Walpurgis but also having her gem get removed from her transformed body and fall 100m away without it getting destroyed in the process, all without Homura noticing. The third one is getting pretty absurd, and the second is inconsistent with the behavior we've seen from witches and Homura when she was close to becoming a witch. ----KM 19:56, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
> Finally, a reasonable argument. Yes, bodies can be removed from a Reality Marble; however, in the instance that it happened a Magical Girl (Kyouko) carried it out. Additionally, the Reality Marble was not collapsing at the time. I suppose for sake of argument you could say that Homura carried her body out; however, how would she have known that the body would disappear; second, can a non magical girl carry a body out?
>True, the which is never seen; however, trying to use the same argument that "if the Soul Gem isn't seen" and rejecting the same argument that the "Witch isn't seen" shows that you aren't properly considering the available options. Yes, if you look at how big her Witch form is it would in theory be too big to miss; however, have you ever been in an accident or been in a location when something traumatic happened? How much of your surroundings do you remember, especially if your concentrating on your dying/dead friend? Additionally, IN TL2 she saw it happen as she awake and at her body when it happened. Additionally, at this point none of the characters knew that their Soul was literally in the Soul Gem... even if she did see it happen she may not have put 1 & 1 together... she could have seen it as her dieing and her energy leaving. Another scenario would be she may have never seen it happen, for all we know (in relation to the Witch in episode 4/5) Homura could have passed out. Not seeing it happen would likely lead Homura not putting the pieces together, especially in this moment of tragedy. Additionally, you never get an image from behind our POV so it's possible for us to miss. Granted it is impossible to say for sure what happened unless they give us further details I can't say for certain and certainly wouldn't say its a fact.
>Now I'm not trying to say that this is fact or anything, I'm more pointing out that we really don't have enough information to straight up say she died, especially stating that she didn't turn into a witch because she was "pure". I want to agree that she died without turning into a witch; however, there's not enough proof or logic to deny the just as possible result of her turning into a witch. --SunnyJ 21:27, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Mami and Walpurgis

I may be missing something, but how did Mami know about Walpurgis night in the first timeline? Wasn't Homerun the only one knowing about it(thanks to the time travels)? --78.134.58.150 04:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

  • The implication is that a Walpurgis Night appears regularly, or that there is a way of sensing or learning about when a Walpurgis Night will occur. We'll probably find out once we learn more about the nature of Walpurgis. --Universalperson 09:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Maybe many magic girls know or hear Walpurgis night, but just cannot know when it will arrive. Mami may only ask Madoka to prepare herself for someday it arrives without mention WHEN. Yorkwoo 01:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
    • Mami has already been a Magical Girl for awhile even in the First timeline. And as suggested By Kyouko's lines in some episodes, It's safe to assume that at the very least, Magical Girls contact and Interact with each other every now and then. Despite the job of a Magical Girl being a preferably One-Man-Job, I think it's safe to assume that theres some sort of Bounty Hunter/Mercenary Information sharing network among Magical Girls and thus intelligence on major threats like Walpurgis can go around. MochaCoffee 01:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
      • There's also Kyubey, who would know about Walpurgis, and would warn girls or encourage them to team up when he thinks there's a high risk of combat deaths interfering with his energy farming. In the later timelines he's keeping quiet so he can use the crisis to pressure Madoka into making a mistake. KM 06:37, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Where does it state that Walpurgisnacht is defeated in timeline 1-3?

Unless all the translations I read were bad, it is never stated that Walpurgisnacht was defeated. Just because it isn't shown, doesn't meant that it's not still there, right? 84.179.148.181 22:04, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

You can see the aftermath of the destruction of Mitakihara, and Madoka and Homura wouldn't be alive if Walpurgisnacht was still active. They also severely depleted both of their Soul Gems, indicating that they used up almost all of their magic battling Walpurgis. Now, you can be pedantic and argue that Walpurgis could have just left, but I'm sure that the scene at the end of Timeline 3 was meant to show that Madoka and Homura were finally able to work together and defeat the witch -- albeit with a massive loss of property and life, and with the death of Madoka. It's why Madoka's one-shotting of Walpurgis in Episode 12 is so remarkable. 69.119.10.180 04:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
So there's nothing solid and just assumptions?
"Madoka and Homura wouldn't be alive if Walpurgisnacht was still active"
Why? It might be in order to have time for story telling but Walpurgis seems pretty passive a times. For example Timeline 1. Dialogue between Madoka and Homura after Mami died with Walpurigs obviously still around. But she doesn't interfere. Timeline 4 has dialogue between Madoka and Kyubey while Walpurigs doesn't seem to do anything either (although we don't know if Homura falls because of her or not). And what about the "Main Anime Timeline"? While Walpurgis gets closer to the shelter she doesn't seem to mind Homura too much. And she also leaves Madoka all the time in the world to talk to Homura and make her wish.
As for timeline 2 and 3, how do we know that Walpurgis just didn't settle with incapacitating any immediate threats? Fetch a bit further and you could consider that she might even have a spark of intelligence and knows that they are going to turn into some new witch friends.
So I don't really see why nobody can be alive if Walpurigs is still around.
"indicating that they used up almost all of their magic battling Walpurgis"
Sure. But you can deplete all your magic without actually winning, right?
84.179.142.62 22:17, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
As far as I know, Madoka does say that Walpurgis is defeated just before she become a witch in the manga version in Timeline 2. I'm not sure whether she says that in anime. --Yorkwoo 00:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Why do you want Walpurgis to be "alive" so badly, anon?
Anyway, from Walpurgisnacht's page on this wiki:
The play stops on Walpurgisnacht,/and the earth does not turn even once more./The story will not change./Tomorrow, and the day after, is the night of Walpurgis.
She will continue to rotate aimlessly throughout the world until she completely changes the whole of this age into a drama.
Walpurgis is heavily implied, if not outright stated by her nature of "helplessness," to be a mindless amalgamation of witches that does nothing but destroy. That's why Mami, Kyoko, and Homura are so worried about it! If there was a chance of the witch passively bobbling around and ultimately passing Mitakihara over without killing everyone in the city, they wouldn't have needed to face it head on. The reason for Walpurgis's lack of action during the Madoka/Homura scenes in Timeline 1 and Episode 12 is most likely because the witch wasn't intelligent enough or self-aware enough to act preemptively on the magical girl threat. In Episode 12, it only attacked Homura when she attacked it.
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