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Kazuo Koike's Nico Nico Character School! ~Lecture 13: Gen Urobuchi~

2026-07-14T22:54:11Z

SOSOMAMAHAHA: Partial changes to the English translation

== Summary ==

Originally published on 2013/12/22, Gen Urobuchi did an interview with Kazuko Koike about the writing process he used, and several questions about Madoka Magica were asked, including about Rebellion.

The original video can be viewed here.<ref>https://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv162841750</ref>

=== Exerpted Transcriptions & Translations ===

Courtesy of @sosoma0231 of the /r/MadokaMagica/ Discord.

'''Ｑ：「叛逆の意味」（0:59:55～）'''

虚淵「一度テレビで完全に終わらせちゃった話なので、ひっくり返すという意味合いが大きかったとは思いますね、キャラクターは世界に叛逆していますし、ぼくは最初の構想に自ら叛逆していますし、いろいろな意味合いを含めて叛逆というフレーズはいいよね、というのはありますね」

'''Q: "The meaning of Rebellion" (0:59:55–)'''

Urobuchi: Since it was a story that we had completely finished once on TV, I think the implication of 'turning things upside down' was a big part of it. The characters are rebelling against the world, and I myself am rebelling against my own initial concept. Including various meanings like that, there is this feeling that the phrase 'Rebellion' is really good, you see.

'''Ｑ：改変された世界では魔女はどうなるのでしょうか（1:00:00～1:02:00)'''

虚淵「ぼくの中では、あいかわらず魔獣がおおかたの世の中の歪みとして存在し、ただ、その歪みの中に反則の悪魔的な存在としてほむらがいるというスタンスなので」
「明確に魔女といえる存在はたぶんいないかな、とは思いますね」
「ただ、ほむらが、魔女のさらにいっこ上の悪魔と名乗り、存在するので、」
「そのへんは彼女の一存になっちゃうのかな、という気がしますね」

'''Q: What happens to witches in the rewritten world? (1:00:00-1:02:00)'''

Urobuchi: In my mind, Wraiths still exist as the majority of the world's distortion, but my stance is that Homura exists within that distortion as an anomalous, Devil-like presence. I think there probably aren't any beings that can clearly be called Witches. However, Homura calls herself a Devil, transcending Witches, and she exists as such, so I feel like that sort of thing would just be up to her own discretion.

'''Ｑ：子供向けのフィクションをつくるときのスタンス（1:03:??～)'''

虚淵「子供向けのフィクションっていうのは、ちょっと恐ろしい気持ち悪い寓話にしたいな、っていうのはありますね。」
虚淵「イメージトレーニングとして、もしも怖いものとあったとき自分はどういうふうに立ち向かえばいいのか、どういう人に助けを求めればいいのか、どういうところから勇気がわいてくるのか、そういったイメージを、実際に怪我するような体験じゃなくても鍛えられるのが、子供向けのフィクションじゃないかな、っていう気がしますよね。」

小池「それはありますね。昔は闇というものがあった。昔は外に出たらまっ暗闇があった。闇の中には必ず怖いものが潜んでいる、子供心にそう思ったんですね。闇の中になにかいるぞ、と思い描く本能を人間はもっているわけですから、暗い道を行くよりも明るい道を通ろう、という考え方が防御本能につながっていって、だけど、いまでは短距離」

虚淵「怖いのは、『この世に闇はありませんよ』という体裁を良かれと思って子供に教えるというのは、これはあとあと実際おそろしいことになると思いますね。」

'''Q: What is your approach when creating fiction for children? (1:03:??–)'''

Urobuchi: When it comes to fiction for children, I want it to be a somewhat frightening, unsettling fable. As a form of mental rehearsal, if you were ever to encounter something frightening, how should you face it? Whom should you ask for help? Where does courage come from? I think children's fiction is something that lets you cultivate those kinds of mental images without having to go through an experience where you actually get hurt.

Koike: That's true. In the past, there was such a thing as darkness. If you went outside, there was pitch-black darkness. As a child, you naturally thought that something frightening was always lurking in the dark. 'There's something in the darkness'—human beings are born with that instinct to imagine such things. So the idea of taking the well-lit road instead of the dark one became connected to our instinct for self-preservation. But nowadays, even over short distances...

Urobuchi: What's truly frightening is teaching children, with the best of intentions, to believe that 'there is no darkness in this world.' I think that ultimately leads to something genuinely terrible.

'''Ｑ：（最初の）叩き台のストーリーはどのようなものだったのでしょうか（1:06:47～）'''

虚淵「パンフレットにも書いたと思うんですけど、ほむらが魔女になり結界を張り、最後にまどかに救済される、そこで止めちゃったんですよ」
虚淵「書いて提出する段階でも、これ、わざわざ映像化にするほどの話かなぁ、っていう戸惑いはあったんですよね。ただの後日談で終わっちゃってるなぁ、という。案の定、これじゃものたりない、となり、それで、みんなで頭抱えている中で『いっそ、まどかとほむらが喧嘩になるような流れ』でもいいんじゃないか、と言われて、そこでひらめいたんですね。」
虚淵「よし、じゃあ神様が生まれる話を書いたのだから、そのあと、悪魔が生まれる話をつなげれば、表裏一体で、ある種の神話の始まり、みたいなものが作れる。それがひらめいたところで、これは作りがいのある続編になるって、一気にモチベーションがあがりましたね。」
虚淵「ぼくひとりの引き出しではでなかった発想なんですよ。最初のＴＶシリーズを終わらせた段階で、あの結末にに僕は縛られていたので、まさか、暁美ほむらというキャラクターが鹿目まどかに歯向かうような選択をするなんて、自分の中の選択肢として思いつかなかったんですね。
虚淵「ただ、彼女のメンタル、欲求や動機だったらありうる判断だ、というのは、まさに監督のアイディアもらった時点でひらめいて、いける。そこで出来上がったのがいまある脚本ですね。」
虚淵「考えてみればいろんな神話であるんですよね。もともとは、忠実に神に仕えていた者が、なにかのきっかけで歯向かう側にまわってしまうっていうのは。」

'''Q: What was the initial draft of the story like? (1:06:47–)'''

Urobuchi: I believe I mentioned this in the movie brochure as well, but the story idea was that Homura becomes a Witch, creates a barrier, and is saved by Madoka in the end. I had just stopped the story there. Even at the stage of writing and submitting it, I had some doubts, wondering, 'Is this a story that is really worth turning into a movie?' I felt like it just ended as a simple epilogue to the first TV series.

Sure enough, the feedback was that it wasn't enough. So, while everyone was scratching their heads, someone suggested, 'Why don't we go with a direction where Madoka and Homura actually clash with each other?' That was when I was inspired. So, since I had written a story about the birth of a God, by connecting it next to a story about the birth of a Devil, they were two sides of the same coin, and I could create something like the beginning of mythology. The moment I was inspired by that, I was convinced this would be a sequel truly worth creating, and my motivation suddenly surged.

It was a new idea that couldn't have come from my own repertoire alone. At the stage of finishing the first TV series, I was bound by that ending, so it never crossed my mind as an option within myself that a character like Homura Akemi would make a choice to counter Madoka Kaname. However, the moment I received the director's new idea, I was inspired that this was a judgment that could happen given Homura's mental state, desires, and motivations, and that it could work. What came out of that is the script we have now.

When you think about it, you can find various mythologies like that. Someone who originally served a god faithfully is triggered by something into turning to the opposite side.

'''Ｑ：「ほむらは本当に悪魔なのでしょうか？」（1:12:43～)'''

虚淵「それも面白いところで、結構、劇場のラストで、脚本と印象ががらっと変わっているんですよ。」
虚淵「脚本だと。ほむらが悪魔だ、と言いきって、丘の上から街を見下ろして微笑んでいるだけで終わりなんですけど、絵コンテの段階で、彼女が葛藤しているかのような材料が一気に加っているんですよね。」
虚淵「それで一気にほむらのスタンスがミステリアスになったんですけれども、あれが脚本になかった深みにつながったな、と思っていまして、まさに、僕が想定した暁美ほむらよりも映像化の過程でさらにキャラが育ったんですよね。」
虚淵「悪魔だと自称しているけれども、彼女自身が神様すら傷つけてしまうような力を持ちつつ、実際どこに転がっていくのかわからないっていう風に演出を変えてもらえているんで、虚淵玄が答えられる分ではないんですけど、謎ですよね。」
虚淵「それこそ次に膨らませる部分になると思うんですよね
虚淵「脚本家の欲求として結論を出したくなっちゃうんですけど、それだと小さく小さくまとめていっちゃうんで」

'''Q: Is Homura really a devil? (1:12:43–)'''

Urobuchi: That's an interesting point as well. By the time we reached the ending in the theatrical version, the impression had changed quite dramatically from what was in the script.

In the script, it simply ends with Homura definitively declaring herself to be a devil, smiling as she looks down over the city from atop a hill. But at the storyboard stage, a whole range of elements was added that make it seem as though she's struggling internally.

That immediately made Homura's position much more mysterious. I think those additions gave the film a depth that wasn't present in the script. In that sense, during the process of bringing it to the screen, the character developed even further beyond the Akemi Homura I had originally envisioned.

Homura calls herself a Devil, while she herself possesses force that can even wound a God, and we don't know where things will head. Since they have changed the direction like that, it's not something Gen Urobuchi can answer, but it's a mystery, isn't it? I think that’s exactly the part to expand on next. As a screenwriter, I can't help wanting to provide a definitive conclusion. But if I do that, I just end up wrapping everything up into something smaller and smaller.

'''Ｑ：さやかちゃんは主役になれますか？（1:27:10～)'''

虚淵「劇場版を通じて特殊な立ち位置のキャラになったので、もしかしたら孤高のヒーローになるかもしれませんね。ほむらというキャラクターがなにか悪だくみしているという直感だけは引き継いでいるのですが、直感どまりなので人のの理解は得られないでしょうし、たぶん彼女はひとりでその直感だけを抱え込んでほむらに対抗することになるでしょうから、面白いキャラクターになると思いますね。」

'''Q: Could Sayaka become the main character? (1:27:10–)'''

Urobuchi: After the movie, she's ended up becoming a character in a rather unique position. So she might even become a solitary hero. She's retained only the intuition that the character Homura is plotting something sinister. But since it's nothing more than intuition, she probably won't be able to get anyone else to understand or believe her. So she'll most likely end up carrying that intuition all by herself as she stands against Homura. I think that would make her a very interesting character.

[[Category:Interviews]]
[[Category:Interviews/Gen Urobuchi]]

Kazuo Koike's Nico Nico Character School! ~Lecture 13: Gen Urobuchi~

2026-07-11T14:58:46Z

SOSOMAMAHAHA: Changed a few words.

== Summary ==

Originally published on 2013/12/22, Gen Urobuchi did an interview with Kazuko Koike about the writing process he used, and several questions about Madoka Magica were asked, including about Rebellion.

The original video can be viewed here.<ref>https://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv162841750</ref>

=== Exerpted Transcriptions & Translations ===

Courtesy of @sosoma0231 of the /r/MadokaMagica/ Discord.

'''Ｑ：「叛逆の意味」（0:59:55～）'''

虚淵「一度テレビで完全に終わらせちゃった話なので、ひっくり返すという意味合いが大きかったとは思いますね、キャラクターは世界に叛逆していますし、ぼくは最初の構想に自ら叛逆していますし、いろいろな意味合いを含めて叛逆というフレーズはいいよね、というのはありますね」

'''Q: "The meaning of Rebellion" (0:59:55–)'''

Urobuchi: Since it was a story that we had completely finished once on TV, I think the implication of 'turning things upside down' was a big part of it. The characters are rebelling against the world, and I myself am rebelling against my own initial concept. Including various meanings like that, there is this feeling that the phrase 'Rebellion' is really good, you see.

'''Ｑ：改変された世界では魔女はどうなるのでしょうか（1:00:00～1:02:00)'''

虚淵「ぼくの中では、あいかわらず魔獣がおおかたの世の中の歪みとして存在し、ただ、その歪みの中に反則の悪魔的な存在としてほむらがいるというスタンスなので」
「明確に魔女といえる存在はたぶんいないかな、とは思いますね」
「ただ、ほむらが、魔女のさらにいっこ上の悪魔と名乗り、存在するので、」
「そのへんは彼女の一存になっちゃうのかな、という気がしますね」

'''Q: What happens to witches in the rewritten world? (1:00:00-1:02:00)'''

Urobuchi: In my mind, Wraiths still exist as the majority of the world's distortion, but my stance is that Homura exists within that distortion as an anomalous, Devil-like presence. I think there probably aren't any beings that can clearly be called Witches. However, Homura calls herself a Devil, transcending Witches, and she exists as such, so I feel like that sort of thing would just be up to her own discretion.

'''Ｑ：子供向けのフィクションをつくるときのスタンス（1:03:??～)'''

虚淵「子供向けのフィクションっていうのは、ちょっと恐ろしい気持ち悪い寓話にしたいな、っていうのはありますね。」
虚淵「イメージトレーニングとして、もしも怖いものとあったとき自分はどういうふうに立ち向かえばいいのか、どういう人に助けを求めればいいのか、どういうところから勇気がわいてくるのか、そういったイメージを、実際に怪我するような体験じゃなくても鍛えられるのが、子供向けのフィクションじゃないかな、っていう気がしますよね。」

小池「それはありますね。昔は闇というものがあった。昔は外に出たらまっ暗闇があった。闇の中には必ず怖いものが潜んでいる、子供心にそう思ったんですね。闇の中になにかいるぞ、と思い描く本能を人間はもっているわけですから、暗い道を行くよりも明るい道を通ろう、という考え方が防御本能につながっていって、だけど、いまでは短距離」

虚淵「怖いのは、『この世に闇はありませんよ』という体裁を良かれと思って子供に教えるというのは、これはあとあと実際おそろしいことになると思いますね。」

'''Q: What is your approach when creating fiction for children? (1:03:??–)'''

Urobuchi: When it comes to fiction for children, I want it to be a somewhat frightening, unsettling fable. As a form of mental rehearsal, if you were ever to encounter something frightening, how should you face it? Whom should you ask for help? Where does courage come from? I think children's fiction is something that lets you cultivate those kinds of mental images without having to go through an experience where you actually get hurt.

Koike: That's true. In the past, there was such a thing as darkness. If you went outside, there was pitch-black darkness. As a child, you naturally thought that something frightening was always lurking in the dark. 'There's something in the darkness'—human beings are born with that instinct to imagine such things. So the idea of taking the well-lit road instead of the dark one became connected to our instinct for self-preservation. But nowadays, even over short distances...

Urobuchi: What's truly frightening is teaching children, with the best of intentions, to believe that 'there is no darkness in this world.' I think that ultimately leads to something genuinely terrible.

'''Ｑ：（最初の）叩き台のストーリーはどのようなものだったのでしょうか（1:06:47～）'''

虚淵「パンフレットにも書いたと思うんですけど、ほむらが魔女になり結界を張り、最後にまどかに救済される、そこで止めちゃったんですよ」
虚淵「書いて提出する段階でも、これ、わざわざ映像化にするほどの話かなぁ、っていう戸惑いはあったんですよね。ただの後日談で終わっちゃってるなぁ、という。案の定、これじゃものたりない、となり、それで、みんなで頭抱えている中で『いっそ、まどかとほむらが喧嘩になるような流れ』でもいいんじゃないか、と言われて、そこでひらめいたんですね。」
虚淵「よし、じゃあ神様が生まれる話を書いたのだから、そのあと、悪魔が生まれる話をつなげれば、表裏一体で、ある種の神話の始まり、みたいなものが作れる。それがひらめいたところで、これは作りがいのある続編になるって、一気にモチベーションがあがりましたね。」
虚淵「ぼくひとりの引き出しではでなかった発想なんですよ。最初のＴＶシリーズを終わらせた段階で、あの結末にに僕は縛られていたので、まさか、暁美ほむらというキャラクターが鹿目まどかに歯向かうような選択をするなんて、自分の中の選択肢として思いつかなかったんですね。
虚淵「ただ、彼女のメンタル、欲求や動機だったらありうる判断だ、というのは、まさに監督のアイディアもらった時点でひらめいて、いける。そこで出来上がったのがいまある脚本ですね。」
虚淵「考えてみればいろんな神話であるんですよね。もともとは、忠実に神に仕えていた者が、なにかのきっかけで歯向かう側にまわってしまうっていうのは。」

'''Q: What was the initial draft of the story like? (1:06:47–)'''

Urobuchi: I believe I mentioned this in the movie brochure as well, but the story idea was that Homura becomes a Witch, creates a barrier, and is saved by Madoka in the end. I had just stopped the story there. Even at the stage of writing and submitting it, I had some doubts, wondering, 'Is this a story that is really worth turning into a movie?' I felt like it just ended as a simple epilogue to the first TV series.

Sure enough, the feedback was that it wasn't enough. So, while everyone was scratching their heads, someone suggested, 'Why don't we go with a direction where Madoka and Homura actually clash with each other?' That was when I was inspired. So, since I had written a story about the birth of a God, by connecting it next to a story about the birth of a Devil, they were two sides of the same coin, and I could create something like the beginning of mythology. The moment I was inspired by that, I was convinced this would be a sequel truly worth creating, and my motivation suddenly surged.

It was a new idea that couldn't have come from my own repertoire alone. At the stage of finishing the first TV series, I was bound by that ending, so it never crossed my mind as an option within myself that a character like Homura Akemi would make a choice to counter Madoka Kaname. However, the moment I received the director's new idea, I was inspired that this was a judgment that could happen given Homura's mental state, desires, and motivations, and that it could work. What came out of that is the script we have now.

When you think about it, there are plenty of myths like that. Someone who originally served God faithfully ends up, because of some catalyst, joining the side that opposes Him.

'''Ｑ：「ほむらは本当に悪魔なのでしょうか？」（1:12:43～)'''

虚淵「それも面白いところで、結構、劇場のラストで、脚本と印象ががらっと変わっているんですよ。」
虚淵「脚本だと。ほむらが悪魔だ、と言いきって、丘の上から街を見下ろして微笑んでいるだけで終わりなんですけど、絵コンテの段階で、彼女が葛藤しているかのような材料が一気に加っているんですよね。」
虚淵「それで一気にほむらのスタンスがミステリアスになったんですけれども、あれが脚本になかった深みにつながったな、と思っていまして、まさに、僕が想定した暁美ほむらよりも映像化の過程でさらにキャラが育ったんですよね。」
虚淵「悪魔だと自称しているけれども、彼女自身が神様すら傷つけてしまうような力を持ちつつ、実際どこに転がっていくのかわからないっていう風に演出を変えてもらえているんで、虚淵玄が答えられる分ではないんですけど、謎ですよね。」
虚淵「それこそ次に膨らませる部分になると思うんですよね
虚淵「脚本家の欲求として結論を出したくなっちゃうんですけど、それだと小さく小さくまとめていっちゃうんで」

'''Q: Is Homura really a devil? (1:12:43–)'''

Urobuchi: That's an interesting point as well. By the time we reached the ending in the theatrical version, the impression had changed quite dramatically from what was in the script.

In the script, it simply ends with Homura definitively declaring herself to be a devil, smiling as she looks down over the city from atop a hill. But at the storyboard stage, a whole range of elements was added that make it seem as though she's struggling internally.

That immediately made Homura's position much more mysterious. I think those additions gave the film a depth that wasn't present in the script. In that sense, during the process of bringing it to the screen, the character developed even further beyond the Akemi Homura I had originally envisioned.

Homura calls herself a Devil, while she herself possesses force that can even wound a God, and we don't know where things will head. Since they have changed the direction like that, it's not something Gen Urobuchi can answer, but it's a mystery, isn't it? I think that’s exactly the part to expand on next. As a screenwriter, I can't help wanting to provide a definitive conclusion. But if I do that, I just end up wrapping everything up into something smaller and smaller.

'''Ｑ：さやかちゃんは主役になれますか？（1:27:10～)'''

虚淵「劇場版を通じて特殊な立ち位置のキャラになったので、もしかしたら孤高のヒーローになるかもしれませんね。ほむらというキャラクターがなにか悪だくみしているという直感だけは引き継いでいるのですが、直感どまりなので人のの理解は得られないでしょうし、たぶん彼女はひとりでその直感だけを抱え込んでほむらに対抗することになるでしょうから、面白いキャラクターになると思いますね。」

'''Q: Could Sayaka become the main character? (1:27:10–)'''

Urobuchi: After the movie, she's ended up becoming a character in a rather unique position. So she might even become a solitary hero. She's retained only the intuition that the character Homura is plotting something sinister. But since it's nothing more than intuition, she probably won't be able to get anyone else to understand or believe her. So she'll most likely end up carrying that intuition all by herself as she stands against Homura. I think that would make her a very interesting character.

[[Category:Interviews]]
[[Category:Interviews/Gen Urobuchi]]

Kazuo Koike's Nico Nico Character School! ~Lecture 13: Gen Urobuchi~

2026-07-08T13:07:59Z

SOSOMAMAHAHA: Addition of English translation

Kazuo Koike's Nico Nico Character School! ~Lecture 13: Gen Urobuchi~

2026-07-04T13:12:18Z

SOSOMAMAHAHA: Added the creator's statement and its English translation (the remaining sections will be added at a later date).