https://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=SayakaMadokaPuella Magi Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-06-07T04:57:17ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.43.0https://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Community:Philosophical_Observations&diff=45142Community:Philosophical Observations2012-08-19T07:52:03Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>Moving Philosophical essays and observations to this page --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 05:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Keep in mind, this is only speculation and observation. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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==Madoka and Minding her Motive==<br />
<blockquote>-''"Why is mom working so hard for a company that she never dreamed of working with?" <br>"Hmmm... Mom doesnt like working, she likes working hard. There are a lot of things that she doesn't like about it, but she likes the feeling of satisfaction she gets when she overcomes those obstacles, those achivements are precious to her. It doesn't mean that she dreamed to work for that company. But Mom is living her ideal life, and some dreams come true this way."<br>- "so you make how you live into your dream?"'' ~ Madoka and her father. [[Episode 3]]</blockquote><br />
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During the series we notice that Madoka cant never make up her mind when it comes to making a decision, if she will make a wish or not. All she seems to be doing is stalling, crying, and blaming herself for being so weak. But is that really what is happening? It is true, Madoka feels weak and small, powerless to do anything for anyone. She knows that by becoming a Puella Magi that feeling of worthlessness within her would change. But she is also afraid of dying or worst, becoming a witch, a monster that could destroy her world and hurt even her family. Madoka feels trapped, she feels like she has no choice. But there is also something happening behind her mind as well. Before Madoka can take any action, she needs to understand herself.<br />
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The intellectual philosopher Kant states that ''"If all human beings are worthy of respect, regardless of who they are or where they live, then it's wrong to treat them as mere instruments of the collective happiness."'' To Kant, utilitarianism (and Kyubey) is not only immoral but incorrect. One example is the shopkeeper: ''"A child goes to the store and buys a loaf of bread. The grocer could overchage the kid, charge him more than the usual price for a loaf of bread and the child would never know. But the grocer realizes that if his customers discovered that he took advantage of a child, word might spread out and hurt his business. For this reason, he decides not to overcharge the kid. So he charges him the usual price. So the shopkeeper does the right thing, but for the wrong reason. The only reason he deals honestly with the child is to protect his reputation. The shopkeeper acts honestly only for the sake of self interest; the shopkeeper's action lacks moral worth."'' To Kant, what matters is the quaility of the will, the character of the motive."[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rv-4aUbZxQ&feature=BFa&list=SP30C13C91CFFEFEA6&index=6]<br />
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This example works the same way with Sayaka. Sayaka made a contract with Kyubey to heal Kyosuke. Superficially it seems like a selfless noble act to help a friend. But that is not Sayaka's true motive, regardless of whatever she says to defend her actions. Sayaka's true motive is that if Kyosuke is healed, he would not only get better but he would also fall in love with Sayaka for her sacrifice. But that wasn't Sayaka's wish nor that is what happened. And because Sayaka's wish went unfulfilled she felt into despair, not because she was selfish but because she failed to recognize her real motive behind her wish. Not only that but she used the act of healing Kyosuke as a way to earn Kyosuke's love as a form of reward to be expected from her sacrifice. Sayaka violated her own rights as an attempt to gain something in return, and she never consulted with Kyosuke if he would ever accept such deal (nor is he under any obligation to do so; and if Sayaka tried to force Kyosuke under such deal she would be violating his rights as well, since he never gave consent). In essence Sayaka is expecting a reward or a payment for her sacrifice. <br />
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We need to understand Madoka's true motives regarding in becoming a Puella Magi prior to [[Episode 11]] and her refusal during the series. It is easy to see why Madoka would refuse to make a wish, it means death (or a fate worst than death) so any rational person would refuse (as we saw during her conversation with Homura in [[Episode 4]]). But if that is the case then why is Madoka kept tempted to make a wish? This is where motive is important. In [[Episode 8]] Sayaka has a fight with Madoka, this leads to Madoka to blame herself for being weak and terrified of helping her friend. Madoka hates herself for this. Now at first it seems like Madoka is regretting her lack of action and she is tempted to make a wish to help and save Sayaka from her suffering, but this is not so. Madoka's motive is not to help Sayaka, instead she is afraid of being hated by Sayaka, a completely different understanding lacking the true nobility of friendship. There is another observation that is equally important, Madoka's scene with Kyubey in which he is trying to temp Madoka to make a wish. In this scene Kyubey is trying to convince Madoka that by making a wish she could become a god, he is trying to deceive Madoka into the belief that by becoming a powerful god she can fix everything. But what Kyubey doesnt tell her is that there are no guarantees nor he has any interest to fix anything. But let us look at Madoka's motive behind Kyubey's suggestion for her to become a powerful god. At first glance it seems like Madoka is willing to become a sacrifice to the universe so she can fix everything, save everyone. But is that Madoka's true motive? As before, Madoka's motive is not to fix everything for the good, but to fix the wrongs so she would stop suffering from the feelings of sorrow about herself and others (she wants to change Sayaka back to normal, perhaps as a way to atone her cowardly lack of action). It is during this scene that Madoka confesses to Kyubey that she always felt insignificant and useless. She felt that she would never be able to do anything for anyone to create happiness for others and for herself (a similar conversation took place with Homura in [[Drama CD 1|the drama CD ''"Memories of You"'']]). As you can see Madoka's intention at first seem noble but that is not her true motive; what we learn is that Madoka wishes she could be useful so she would stop being worthless (what Madoka desires is to stop feeling sorry about herself, she wants to avoid any more pain and suffering). Nothing has changed, Madoka continues to believe she is weak, that she is powerless, that if she fixes everything she can feel good about herself. If we watch the scene at first it seems like Kyubey is suggesting a noble sacrifice but in truth all Madoka wants to do is to end the suffering so she would stop her own suffering as well.<br />
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As the series progresses, Madoka's thoughts are slowly changing, specially in [[Episode 11]]. Madoka learns an important lesson from Kyubey, a history of sacrifice and how it has affected humanity. Madoka realizes that it is not about her anymore, it is about the people around her and the puellae magi that came before her. The sacrifices of those girls, their suffering, and how all mankind benefited from it. <br />
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Madoka has gained a lot of information that allows her to reflect about herself, and about others. Madoka's motives changes from "I want to stop being weak and feeling bad about myself" to "I want to save everyone, not to feel good about myself, but to stop the suffering and save everyone" and that "everyone" includes her family, her friends, and Homura. That's Madoka's true motive. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself (''"To act freely is not to choose the best means to a given end. It's to choose the end itself for its own sake"''). By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence. What Madoka is doing is trying to respect the humanity of others (and the puellae magi), she isnt using her own sacrifice to make herself good, she cast away that selfish idea ("being selfless for selfish reasons"). During her scene with her mother in [[Episode 11]] Madoka has finally grown up, she knows that what she is doing will hurt her family but she also knows that she is the only one who can save her family and her town from disaster. Not as a noble sacrifice, but as a moral duty as an adult. Madoka wants to do the right thing for the right reasons, she wants to stop the Puellae Magi's suffering, not to make Madoka powerful, not to make Madoka feel good about herself, but because she truly believes it is the right thing to do to stop the cycle of suffering. <br />
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Madoka's journey was long and painful and critics would like to say that Madoka was too indecisive. But I think the reason it was such a long journey for Madoka it's because Madoka was just being a typical teenage girl trying to figure out herself.<br />
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As a final note, the concert scene with Sayaka is an indicator of how much Madoka has grown. Madoka admits that she could have changed Sayaka's fate, but to do so she would have to stop her from making her wish, so instead she allows Sayaka's right to follow her decision. Sayaka agrees with Madoka's choice to respect her own decisions and the consequences that come with it (as they seem to be aware of the Law of Cycles). This indicates that Madoka respects the puellae magi's wishes and their choices, giving them the dignity and respect that Kyubey never gave them. Then when their time was over, Madoka would come and help them pass so their sacrifice wouldn't be in vain and their suffering would end quietly with no regrets. According with an interview with Urobuchi, this is [http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/pandoras-box-1-madoka-goes-terrorist/ Madoka's own way to acknowledge the magical girls' own hopes and wishes without negating them]. ''"Instead of living to chase after a dream as your goal, you should turn your way of living into your dream."''<br />
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:I never actually thought that reading someone else's philosophically-founded analysis could increase my understanding of an anime, but you've done it. This was very insightful for me. とっても素敵。[[User:Holycrap|Holycrap]] 21:16, 19 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I really think the characters in Madoka could be philosophically analyzed, Kyoko is one character I would like to try. I think there she has a mixture of extreme Libertarian philosophies within her character but my understanding of philosophy is limited. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree with Kant, but not with you. Sayaka is a selfless person with her own desire as well, but she helped Kyosuke not just because of her selfish desire, but also her good will. The problem of Sayaka is her compulsive personality, she forces herself to be a good person, while taking great damage(mental and physical) for other people, she ignores her own heart(In episode 9, what is written on the posters on the wall at the entrance of Octavia's barrier is a twisted form of "look at me", as mentioned by Yuuki Aoi in the commentary video). In a sense, this is very selfless, but you may also say her selflessness is fake because it's the "compulsive selflessness" and it is not the will of her true heart. However, still, Sayaka is basically a selfless person, it's wrong to interpret her as a selfish person, a selfless person is not a person without any selfish desires. <br />
:It is very wrong to interpret Madoka as a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:47, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I dont doubt she was selfless, but the purpose of this philosophical opinion is if Madoka was selfless for the right reasons or selfless for the wrong reason. I am not bashing Madoka, instead I believe Madoka overcomes her difficulty by doing self reflection. Remember, in all timelines Madoka always becomes a Witch. No matter what wish she makes, the wish would be twisted because of the logical nature of it (according with Kyubey). Instead, Madoka overcomes it by understanding the nature of the wish and understanding her own self. Self-reflection. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::What I said is that Madoka had never being a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, when I say "...she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed", I mean she's a true selfless person who's selfless for selfless reasons, and this has never changed. The thing that made Madoka see hope, and resonate with it, which turns her into her ultimate form, is the love of Homura(the spiral of love spins around the arrow of hope, supporting it, protecting it, making it powerful - another important metaphor; it is so beautiful and powerful, isn't it?), not a realization of that she had being selfless for selfish reasons, because she had never being.[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 22:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::::I dont doubt Madoka wants to be good and selfless, but I disagree with the idea she was wholly selfless. She was pure and innocent but not a saint. Madoka is the embodiment of innocence, childhood, and love. But Madoka is also a character who carries flaws like her lack of self-esteem or her inability to believe in herself from the very beginning (this is one reason many fans disliked her in the beginning. They dismissed her as lacking character and a coward, which I disagree). When Madoka cries or feels bad, that's a natural reaction from a child. Madoka stopped running away and crying in the end when she became a bit wiser and mature. We also saw that her idea of mahou shoujo in the begining was more in line with a typical magical girl shows and she wanted to emulate Mami's courage and strength without truly understanding how much Mami had to sacrifice. Once she learns and experiences her life difficulties, instead of running she faces it. Madoka is growing, evolving. If Madoka was selfless and pure since the beginning then there is no transformative element, there is no "change" and with that there is no true hope (for the rest of humanity or the Puella Magi). Madoka's transformation as a Witch is not a result of Madoka's corruption of her purity, it was Madoka's inability to see her own corruptive power. It is true that Homura's love for Madoka led to Madoka's transformative change. However, we have to remember that Madoka didn't develop deep feeling for Homura. Even Homura can see it in Episode 11 and states that their feeling are growing apart. Madoka only realizes Homura's feelings at the end of her evolved transformation. If you listen to Madoka's conversation, she states that she could not understand Homura until Madoka was able to see all of her previous versions and timelines. Only then Madoka could comprehend Homura in a deep manner. Even Urobuchi agrees with this, and that is why he calls it [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Shinjidai_no_Mixture_Magazine_BLACK_PAST "cruel"]. That doesn't mean that Madoka didn't care for Homura's safety in Episode 12, it just means that Madoka cared for the safety of everyone in town (including her family ) at that time. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::::Madoka is selfless at the beginning, but she couldn't see hope and resonate with it while facing the greatest darkness, until Homura's love making her powerful - that's the transformation, love makes her see, that despair is unnecessary, no matter how strong the darkness is, it can always be shattered by hope(which means the non-increasing nature of hope and non-decreasing nature of despair is not true, not matter how it seems to be true, it is not. Or you can say the rule of Universe, which is hope being non-increasing and despair being non-decreasing, has being changed. The two statements are equivalent). Madoka doesn't understand Homura consciously at the beginning, but her subconsciousness is transformed by her love without her realizing it(She could even feel the love but she doesn't know where it comes from. If her subconsciousness hasn't changed, why would she become more and more powerful? Since only the heart of a Puella Magi determines her magical power). I don't know why you don't like the saying that Madoka became a witch because of her being corrupted, I think this is a good way to describe it. Madoka is not unable to see her own corruptive power, since in some timelines before she's being turned into a witch, she knew what is inside her is going to turn her into a witch.<br />
:::::I'm not saying Madoka is perfect at the beginning, but she's almost totally selfless, and she hasn't done anything selfless for selfish reasons until the moment she was turned into a witch--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 23:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You misunderstand, I am not saying that Sayaka's selflessness is fake, the problem with Sayaka is that she lacks self reflection. Sayaka only realized the meaning of being a magical girl in Episode 9, by then it was too late and she transformed into a witch. I believe what Sayaka did was noble, she was also stubborn and childish. In her heart she thought she was doing good, in reality all she did was hurt others, including Madoka. IF Sayaka had been more honest with her feelings and her motives, perhaps her wish would not have gone unfulfilled, but that's just assuming. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:Oh, wow. WOW. I know that I'm pretty late to the whole congratulatory party, Mutopis(?), but I gotta say, I REALLY loved your analysis of Madoka's character, which I completed this early morn. I think it helps settle, at least somewhat, one of the little enduring qualms about I've had the ending-- a qualm that I was actually thinking on earlier tonight-- even though I personally regard Madoka's as one of the absolute best anime endings I've seen. And that was just how drastically fast and life-altering Madoka's development seemed to be, from (literally and mentally) a 14 year old girl to a goddess-like figure with a wisdom that surely can't be comprehended by our living humanity. There wasn't a lot of breathing room for this development! It's not like how it was with Jesus Christ, who knew of his universal significance and the fate that awaited him and lived every day of his life as we know it in preparation for it. Why, it's not even like most stories centered on a Hero's Journey, where the hero knows that he or she matters in some big way or another for a majority or reasonably large portion of the story. BUT-- seeing you map out her characterization, her subtle demonstrations of kindness and maturity, and your reminder of the revelations/conversations Madoka's had in episode 6 and 11-- the "transformation" has definitely become easier to come to grips with; it doesn't seem as extremely sudden as it did before. (still fairly accelerated, though.) (Really, thanks for giving greater context to the dialogue/revelation in episode 11's content-- I have actually semi-purposefully limited my own exposure to both episodes 11 & 12, having only let myself go through whole episode viewings twice each despite having the whole series on VLC. It's probably some combination of not wanting to make myself cry more, not wanting the ending to lose meaning to me, and not wanting to come to grips that the story, until the third movie's contents are revealed, is really over and done.) [[User:Animerican-Redeemed|Animerican-Redeemed]] 09:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Kyubey and Utilitarianism ==<br />
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I am working on Kyubey's utilitarianism, this space is for a rough draft.<br />
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Urobuchi's view in energy conservation and connection to [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/SWITCH_2011-07_Vol.29_No.07 Kyubey's utilitarianism] [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Spa_Weekly!_2011-07-19 kyubey's belief] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 the overly romanticism of (good) reality (false perception) and good intentions with bad results of unhappiness] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 trade offs]. By the way I am reading Michael Sandel's book [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY "Justice"] and it is a good source of understanding philology. Will finish when I can. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I take it that the words below are your voice (and not an attempt at translation), right, Mutopis? I ask for purpose of response. ;) -- [[User:NS|preceding comment by NS]] 16:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I can confirm these are not Urobuchi's thoughts. --[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 16:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::This is a philosophical essay with my words, I use some comments and information from interviews and some material from the book "Justice" to interpret the anime series in a philosophical way. I am using the same method that I did with [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|Madoka and her motives]] to appreciate and get a better understanding. I want to see if Kyubey's utilitarianism is that simple or it is more complex than that, and why it seems justifiable (I am playing the devil's advocate), but more importantly to demonstrate that Kyubey is not evil, but just follows what he was created to do. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 20:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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*Guys, if you like to contribute or express an opinion about the essay, you are more than welcome. This is just a rough draft. I think I will be working on this for a while and I would like some opinions to make sure it remains consistent. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
*I hope no one has any problem with this essay being long. To tell you the truth I have no idea how long this will grow into. I am still working, rewriting, doing few changes here and there... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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** Thanks for your professional opinion. But there are too many changes a day, and that makes it troublesome to track changes. Isn't it better to write into a file in your computer first to reduce modification to the page? And I think it good to open a new topic talking about this. [[User:Yorkwoo|Yorkwoo]] 15:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Well, this looks interesting, but it seems a bit long for this talkpage. I think it might be better suited either as a subpage under your user namespace or as a proper article.--[[User:Knon|Knon]] 12:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I wanted to leave it here for those who wanted to understand the character of Kyubey. I dont know, an article page about philosophy?... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::A link to a new page would work just as well for those further interested in Kyubey. --[[User:Knon|Knon]] 04:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
* I did a lot of cleaning and polishing. If anyone wants to fix some spelling errors and such, you are more than welcome. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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===What is Utilitarianism?===<br />
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The Human Philosophy known as [[wikipedia:Utilitarianism|utilitarianism]] can be easily breakdown as the philosophy that pursues the maximization of happiness and the reduction of pain, or at least the creation of happiness that surpasses the overall total of pain. If Kyubey's brand of utilitarianism was that simple there would be no need for this essay. But utilitarianism, like all brands of philosophy, have taken several different developments and each one has a distinctive flavor that requires recognition. This will be an attempt to understand Kyubey's own brand of Utilitarianism.<br />
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According with [[Episode 9|Kyubey's mission]], he wants to save the universe by offsetting the depletion of the universe's energy (actually, Kyubey's statement is wrong, the correct assessment would be to stop [[Thermodynamics|the permanent loss of heat]], but who am I to question an advance alien race?). To accomplish this mission Kyubey's alien race has found the answer to the problem, the harvesting of human emotion. The process is simply, give a human magical powers to maximize their sense of hope, then reverse their hope to be turned into despair, during the process the despair energy would be released during the witchfication process thus repairing the damage done to the universe. Repeat the process countless of times until an appropriate energy quota per planet is reached. Sounds simple yet horrifying at the same time. For many this is an example of utilitarianism as its worst, many critics believe that Kyubey is justifying the exploration of little girls to save the universe. However, before we can accuse Kyubey of anything, it is essential to understand the moral nature, as well as Kyubey's reasoning behind it, to determine if the reasoning is justifiable. <br />
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===Kyubey and Bentham: Let us just enslave the human race!===<br />
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Invaders from another galaxy have decided that to save the universe, they must harvest energy to repair the damage already done to it. Their race is incapable of producing such energy by themselves, but thanks to their advance technology they have detected a source of energy that is perfect to solve their crisis. They have detected a "bizarre" mental behavior known as "emotions" capable of producing the required energy but it goes unprocessed and it is localized in another galaxy. The inhabitants of this alien galaxy are equally strange as primitive, not only do they suffer from this mental anomaly known as emotions, but they are being wasteful by not fully developing its potential. Such a waste of energy would be a crime if left unharvested. The alien race decides to invade this galaxy, enslave the inhabitants, and fully exploit its potential by maximizing the production of energy to meet their quota... or so it should be if this was Bentham's brand of utilitarianism but it is not (at least not completely). This is the first indicator that there is something odd about Kyubey's utilitarianism.<br />
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According with Jeremy Bentham, the goal of Utilitarianism is to produce as much happiness as possible, regardless of the means. But most importantly, all forms of happiness and all form of pains have their own equal moral value (no pleasure is better or highest than the other). Which means one form of happiness cannot be measured against another form of happiness; the same can be said about pain. It takes people's preferences as they are without passing judgement on its moral worth. It would be presumptuous to judge some pleasures to be inherently better than others. At the heart of it, Bentham's utilitarianism is nonjudgmental, to him all pleasures are equal. The assumption is that by measuring and calculating the values of pleasure and pains into a formula, one can reach an agreeable moral choice that would promote the general welfare and happiness of the populace. Let us consider the issue at hand, the whole universe is going to be destroyed and all Kyubey is doing is extinguishing a few souls to preserve the general welfare and happiness of countless galaxies. Perhaps one whole planet would be annihilated in the process, but what is a few billion souls when you take into account billions and billions of worlds that would be saved. Some would object that exploiting and even killing human beings is immoral and wrong. Yet, Kyubey would point out that humans do it all the time to one another, and not only that but that they even do it against other lower life forms for their own selfish benefit. After all, aren't humans exploiting animals and other organism to feed their populace, to attain monetary gain, and maintain their civilization? (be it on the agricultural sector or for medical research or a source of cheap labor). Why should humans be given a preferential treatment? After all, maybe there are more advance and worthier alien species out there that deserves to be saved more than humans, and maybe that makes humans the lower life form. On this cold and calculating equation to save the universe one has to arrive to one simple conclusion. If saving the universe by exploiting the emotions of humans has the same moral value than domesticating cattle to feed society, then it should be reasonable to say that Bentham would not object to enslaving the human race to achieve Kyubey's objective. While one would object that it would be morally wrong to exploit humans, one would also have to argue that it would be equally morally wrong to allow the universe to be destroyed. In the utilitarian equation it would be better for one whole planet to suffer than the whole universe to collapse. After all, saving the universe at the expense of the human race would create the greatest form of happiness for the rest of the galaxy. It would suck for the human race, but stopping the end of the universe trumps anything and everything. And if you don't like what Kyubey is doing then too bad, the end justifies the means and the universe would be saved, like it or not. <br />
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Yet, as stated before, that is not the case here, at least partially. Apparently, Kyubey and the aliens have some sort of moral code of their own that disallow them to force humans to enter into a contract (slavery) but they are also not allowed to deceive (false advertisement) or lie to them either (this is, of course, up to debate). However, they do not seem to have any moral qualms regarding the harvesting of human emotions to save the galaxy, just the slavery part.<br />
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One objection to utilitarianism is the attempt to measure pleasure and pain in a single scale while ignoring the qualitative experience of pleasure and pain. For many, certain forms of pleasure are not only higher but also worthier than others. It is believed that the pursue of a nobler pleasure would allow utilitarianism to the arrival of the greatest good. One could make an argument that saving the universe would create happiness but that the quality of happiness would suffer at the expense of perverse methods used for to attain it. Instead, one could say that Kyubey is trying to create the greatest form of happiness by using much more nobler (albeit questionable) methods to attain it. Rather than force the human race into submission and slavery, why not entice them into a fair contract? <br />
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===Kyubey and Mill: Humans are not Cattle.===<br />
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One of the biggest flaws regarding Benthram's utilitarianism is that it doesn't give adequate recognition to human dignity and individual liberty. In its attempt to measure, aggregate, and calculate happiness in a nonjudgmental manner (democratizing all forms of pleasures equally) it eliminates the qualitative and unique moral value of pleasure and pain. What Bentham has done is reduce everything of moral importance to a single scale. John Stuart Mill tries to recalculate utilitarianism into a more humane and less calculating doctrine (a more human-friendly form of utilitarianism that is less prone to enslaving the human race) to achieve a munch nobler form of Utilitarianism that tries to promote the greatest good while recognizing the liberty of individuals. On Mill's ideal version of utilitarianism, as long as no one gets hurt and no one imposes their beliefs on others, then everyone is allowed to exercise their own free will and liberty to achieve the correct moral value that results in the greatest good.<br />
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Let us go back to our scenario regarding an alien race looking for a solution to save our universe. The aliens realized that the human race are the perfect source of emotional energy to be harvested to repair the damage already done to the universe. Kyubey's aliens know that humans are still primitive and prone to their own mental illness known as emotions. Why not put them to better use by enslaving them and harvesting all their energy? At least they would suffer for a noble cause. According with Mill this would be wrong for two reasons. One, it violates the liberty and rights of the human race and its individuals, no one should force them to be used as resources, no matter the cause. Second, the issue at stake here is that the noble idea to save the universe gets tainted because of the process that it is used to achieve the result. Why is this important? It could be damaging for the promotion of general welfare and happiness. Bentham would just suggest that "the end justifies the means" as long as the highest form of happiness is achieved. But Mill's issue is that such inhumane methods may create the greatest form of happiness today, but in the long run it could promote reckless behavior with devastating results. And who is to say that the human race wont try to overthrow their alien overlords to free themselves? Mill is trying to use utilitarian principles as an attempt to promote progressive behavior (the pursue of not the highest pleasure but the noble ones as well). <br />
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Let us take for example the danger of creating a Superwitch like [[Kriemhild Gretchen]]. We saw the devastating results that took place in [[Episode 10]] in which the Earth was destroyed along with all life on the planet. According with Kyubey the creation of Kriemhild Gretchen allowed Kyubey to meet its energy quota in the short run. Of course, this [[wikipedia:slash-and-burn|slash-and-burn]] method was very profitable for Kyubey but what about the loss of future energy collection now that the Earth is dead? No problem, Kyubey states that there are other planets to exploit and using its cold logic the benefits outweighed the risks. Let us assume that what Kyubey is probably saying is that Gretchen produced more energy in a single day than a lifetime collection from the Earth. Perhaps this single offset prevented the future despair of millions of girls; isn't that a better outcome? To reduce the despair of future victims? Not to mention Incubators are now much closer on saving the universe. If this is correct, then losing the planet Earth was an acceptable loss to attain a large reserve of despair energy (perhaps the largest in history), according to Bentham. But Mill would disagree, what about the consequences? What about the fact that this act stains the noble cause to save the universe?<br />
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Kriemhild Gretchen is a Superwitch, but apparently at the moment she is no threat to the galaxy. She may be powerful enough to kill one planet but she still small and powerless enough to be no threat to the alien race or to the whole galaxy for that matter. But let us say overtime she could be, perhaps with time she would find a way to travel to other planets and start growing. Wont this become an issue in the future? And what about the reckless behavior that it promoted? Wont there be a danger that other Incubators from other planets would like try to recreate the same scenario to meet their quota? Soon, it would not just be one planet, but perhaps a few docents and even more that are suddenly destroyed by a Superwitch. And who is to say that these Superwitches wont find a way to merge their powers and create a Super Walpurgis Night powerful enough to destroy the whole universe? Should Incubators take such chance? That is what could happen in the worst case scenario. Of course, this a fabricated scenario of a possible future event. No one knows what the consequences would be like after the destruction of the Earth. It could promote the accelerated process to end the whole galaxy, instead of saving it, but it is just as likely that it doesn't. But that is one dangerous scenario regarding utilitarianism that Mill would like to avoid. <br />
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So, what is Mill's advice for Kyubey regarding utility? Well, not slaving the human race for one. Which in fact that is what they did. As stated by Kyubey, it is against the rules to force humans to become a mahou shoujo against their will. It is their individual choice to decide if they want to become one. This would seem to indicate that Kyubey respects the rights of individuals rather than violate them. After all, Kyubey can be found promoting the Mahou Shoujo lifestyle without forcing anyone to join in, as it is per rules. But what about the recognition for human dignity? Isn't it implied that by harvesting and using humans as resources are they no better than cattle to be consumed? But Kyubey has already an answer for it. Let us not forget that Kyubey recognizes humans to be unique creatures with a noble goal and purpose, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey knows that humans are not lower life forms like cattle just to be harvested and consumed to save the universe, regardless of how humans treat each other or other lower lifeforms. Kyubey states that while it would be for the greater good to harvest human emotions, regardless how Madoka feels personally, at least Kyubey and the alien race took the effort to recognize their uniqueness. Of course, that seems like a nice speech but it still requires substance and evidence behind his words. One clear evidence is that if Kyubey thought humans were cattle then why bother with allowing humans to roam free? Why the rules regarding the respect of personal liberty and choice? We must also remember that as a sign of recognition regarding the uniqueness of humans, they are allowed one single wish in the transaction. Kyubey could easily steal their human soul but they are forbidden to do so. Kyubey states that is one reason why humans are allowed such honor for accepting a contract. While it is true that Kyubey is using humans as a resource, they are neither slave nor cattle, no one is forcing them to make a contract to join in. Instead, the mahou shoujo are like employees and they are given the opportunity and honor to sacrifice their own lives for a noble goal. Isn't that what a mahou shoujo is all about? Girls of justice and noble sacrifice to triumph over evil? It is not slavery if a mahou shoujo gives consent and it is not exploitation if they accept a wish as a form of payment.<br />
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However, there is a certain flaw regarding this argument that Kyubey is practicing a brand of Mill's utilitarianism, and that is that we are assuming that is what Kyubey is doing. First of all, as anyone who has watched the show, would have noticed that Kyubey's actions and behavior have been deceptive so far (Kyubey would disagree). Not to mention the fact that Kyubey concealed the true nature of witches and mahou shoujo from starry-eye naive girls. And who can forget the mess that resulted for the Earth in [[Episode 10]], and Kyubey's disregard for the well being of the planet's inhabitants. Was that Kyubey being cold and cruel? Or was Kyubey just accepting the hard facts as it were, and was there really nothing that Kyubey could have done about it? To Mill, he would be appalled; after all the goal of utilitarianism is to achieve not just happiness but to make sure that the practice of utility would retain long term results. The destruction of the Earth may be good for the survival of the universe, but Mill would not consider that to be an acceptable loss for the greater good if the rights of billions of humans are violated in the process. What about the adverse effect that it would produce? Couldn't this establish a terrible precedent for future energy collection processes and encourage bad immoral behavior through out the galaxy.<br />
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Such practice and behavior brings into question Kyubey's moral value and its sensibility, if it was being measured against human values. There lies a fundamental problem, we know nothing regarding this alien culture and their definition of morality (for all we know their doctrine is based on emotionless cold logic), but for the sake of argument let us assume that they do share our same view regarding morality. Can it be said that Kyubey's utilitarianism tries to remain faithful to either Bentham or Mill? Is it a mixture of it? Or perhaps it is neither and both, perhaps it is an unique form of utilitarianism? Or maybe the problem lies with Mill's utilitarianism, in which we are expecting Kyubey to live up to its principle ideally. But before that, we have to ask ourselves. Are we judging Kyubey unfairly? <br />
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===Let's Make a Deal: The Meaning of Consent.===<br />
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Let us explore the process in which one accepts a contract. One day a furry magical creature approaches you with the promise of making you into a magical girl and in exchange you get one wish. It sounds like a great bargain but you wonder if there is a trick to it. Of course, before you can accept the deal, the magical creature is obligated to disclose to you the dangers of becoming a magical girl. It informs you that you will be fighting witches, but you will be granted magical powers to defeat them. Sounds fair, right? What Kyubey is doing is offering you a product that sounds too good to be true, the creature discloses the terms of conditions (fight witches to gain more magic and to keep yourself alive) in exchange for the opportunity to attain any wish that you want (within the limits of karmatic energy availability). The process sounds simple and you do not suspect anything. After all, it seems that you are being recruited to hunt down evil Witches who are eating innocent humans, it sounds like a noble cause. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity that may never come up again (unless you are one of those girls who Kyubey decides to pester every opportunity to make a contract). You are swoon and tempted by the opportunity that you decide to accept the contract, perhaps you feel desperate enough to want your wish that you decide it is better than nothing. Then somehow you later learn that what you signed into was not what you expected, you are horrified to learn the truth behind the Puella Magi System that you want a way out to avoid your fate into becoming a Witch. But Kyubey refuses to do anything to reverse the process and tells you that you are under contractual obligation to fulfill your part of the bargain. It informs you that you are under no obligation to hunt down witches if you want, as it will accelerate the transformation process if you keep using your magic for anything else, but the process itself cannot be stopped. You accuse Kyubey of lying and the furry creature would refute your accusation by saying that it never lied and that you never ask for more details of what being a magical girl entails (in other words, you never read the fine print). But most importantly, Kyubey would maintain that since you consented to become a magical girl, you also consented with the terms and conditions of the contract that came with it: Fight witches until the moment of metamorphosis, in which the despair energy would be collected to repair the universe. Once a witch you would be freed from your contractual obligation and live the rest of your life as a witch until you are killed by another magical girl (of course, Kyubey wouldn't say it outright in the beginning. If Kyubey was a lawyer he would probably codified it in legalize to avoid annoying questions). But the point is clear, not only you gave consent to become a witch, but you failed to properly educate yourself with the consequences of becoming a Witch. In the end, the failure lies with you. Perhaps Kyubey should wear a [[wikipedia:Caveat_emptor|''"Caveat Emptor"'']] sign around his neck to warn would-be magical girls, but that would undermine Kyubey's purpose and Kyubey would declare that that would be unfair for the universe, as it would guarantee the destruction of all life, along with planet Earth in the near or far future.<br />
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Let us analyze what went wrong and determine who truly is at fault. First of all, what is consent? And once we learn the meaning of it. Does it meet the requirements to be declared consensual? Or did any girl who consented did not truly consented because it did not meet the requirements for it? <br />
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Consent refers to the provision of approval, particularly and especially after thoughtful consideration. To be considered a consent, means that the individuals gives acceptance to an agreement after making an inform decision. However, those who believe that Kyubey is deceitful would point out that any girls' consent is tainted because their informed decision lacked the adequate information to make a rational decision. Some would even go so far as to say that Kyubey used coercion to attain their consent during questionable situations. Therefore, critics would say it fails to meet the requirements for consent. If we consider Kyubey's practice to be deceitful and with the added element of coercion into it, it does bring into question wherever Kyubey's actions are valid and legal (if you could somehow take an alien to court to enforce Earth/national laws. But let us say that you can for the sake of argument). <br />
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First, the issue of coercion. One great example that we can use is [[Tomoe Mami]]'s case. Mami is a victim of a car crash accident (let us say for convenience that there is no foul play in part of Kyubey) and she is dying. The ambulance is on its way but it wont make it on time and Mami's body is already failing. Her body is mere minutes away from death and nothing can be done for her. Then suddenly, Kyubey appears and tells her that if she would like to make a contract. Kyubey informs Mami that it would grant her one wish and she would be fighting witches for the rest of her life. And she can make any wish she wants. This is a classic example of obtaining consent during duress. Mami has two choices to make, either accept Kyubey's contract and become a mahou shoujo or die. So she made her wish, she wished she could live (actually we dont know the actual wording of the wish, but it is assumed it had something to do with saving her life). Critics would say that Kyubey was being manipulative and unfair, that Mami's consent was tainted. The only way that Mami's consent would be valid, would be if Kyubey had approached Mami before the accident or if Kyubey had saved Mami's life first then ask her if she would like to make a contract with Kyubey. <br />
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I would like to point out certain issues on this case. In accordance with utilitarianism (in which Mami chose the pleasure of living over the pain of dying), Mami benefited from Kyubey's contract and any complains she may have against Kyubey is invalid. After all, Mami wanted to not die and Kyubey wanted to get a contract from Mami. Both of them had something that the other wanted and in the exchange they both got it. Under that rationality it would be hardly unfair. Second, even if one considers Mami's consent to be tainted or coerced, their complain is invalid. After all, the idea of coercion would mean that someone's rights was violated. Unless someone can find evidence that Kyubey staged the accident, then maybe they would have a point, but it is not. There is also the issue that Kyubey obtained Mami's consent while dying. Critics like to point out that Kyubey should have saved Mami first, instead it was taking advantage of the situation. We have to remember, in the case of Kyubey we do not know what kind of magical powers Kyubey itself can use or do, Kyubey is simply part of the process to create and grant wishes. It's like saying "Why Kyubey cant wish itself to repair the universe?" Because it cant. For all that we know, approaching Mami with a contract was Kyubey's way of helping her. Let us assume that this is correct (a big assumption, I know) and Kyubey is a powerful yet powerless creature unless a wish is made. If this is correct, then there is nothing Kyubey could have done by itself other than grant wishes. If Kyubey is guilty of anything, is perhaps of taking advantage of a situation. Of course, critics would continue to question the issue of validity within Mami's consent, and whatever she was on her right mind to make such decision. But the fact remains that, regardless of the situation, Mami still gave consent to save her life and she benefited from her choice. Kyubey would like to point out that it doesn't matter in which situation Kyubey got her consent, the fact remains that in Mami's case if it hadn't approached her she would be dead, instead she got to live longer (just to be killed by a [[Charlotte|cheese eating Witch]]). If anything, Mami benefited the most from the situation (to Kyubey's point of view). And since a deal is a deal, it is hardly unfair as long as both party benefited. I would agree that the issue regarding consent in Mami's case is a bit murky and difficult to determine, because of the lack of proper information. However, since we are trying to determine a conclusion with the given information, this would be my own impression. According with Bentham, the issue regarding consent doesn't matter since an individual's right don't matter on the utilitarian equation, and since both parties benefited at the time, the deal was hardly unfair. For Mill, since Mami got to live longer and she avoided the pain of death, she got the greatest good in return. While it is true that the issue of consent is at the heart of the question, we have to assume that in Mill's equation, the desire to live and the want for self-preservation would outweigh her individual's right. Mill would agree that Mami's liberty must be preserved on the utilitarian equation, but when you are weighting the two rights of the same individual, which side has the greater value? On one side it is Mami's right to life, on the other it is Mami's right to be allowed to consent free of pressure, deception, and duress. But let us be clear, Kyubey did not create the situation that Mami was in, and also there was the issue of time. Given what was occurring, there is not enough evidence to find culpability with Kyubey at the moment of the accident. And since Mami's life was at risk, her right to life takes precedent. And Mill would also like to remind us that no one got hurt during the deal (it did more than that, it prevented someone from dying). The issue of Mami's right being violated is moot since Mami's rights were preserved by saving her life so she could continue to exercise those same rights. According to Mill, actions and consequences aren't the only issue, an individual's character also matters. If Mami were to die she would be deprived to exercise her rights and to develop her character as an individual. And what would be the worst precedent from this quandary? Kyubey appearing to every girl close to death and giving them the chance to save their own lives? Wouldn't that create the greatest happiness? And what if every girl Kyubey saves from death are like Mami, or even better? Wouldn't that be not just good for society but even better? (let us assume that Kyubey saves more girls like Mami than Kyouko on this contingent assumption). Mill would agree that protecting Mami's right is important for utility to preserve the general welfare. However, he would also agree that since the rights violated were inconsequential to society (and for Mami) and instead it promoted the greatest good with harm to no one, then it has served its purpose to serve the greatest good.<br />
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Let us set aside Mami's case for now and let us examine the accusation of Kyubey's deception. Critics and detractors have objected to Kyubey's practices on attaining victims for his scam and they have accused Kyubey of lying to get its goal. As always, Kyubey would disagree with them. I don't have to tell you what Bentham's side would be regarding on lying, since he wouldn't see a problem with this as long as Kyubey's action maximizes happiness (eg: save the universe). But what about on Mill's side of utilitarianism? What would be Mill's view on lying be? <br />
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===I cannot tell a lie, you will fail Kyoko.===<br />
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Let us picture this scenario. Kyubey is chasing down Madoka and it is seeking her location, it arrives to Homura's residency but before Homura gets to fill that furry alien with bullets, Kyubey asks if Homura has seen Madoka. Prior to Kyubey's arrival, Madoka has sought refuge within Homura's home and she is hiding. On this situation, Mill would say that lying is ok because it serves to the greater good, to protect a girl from Kyubey. To Mill, lying is ok as long as it saves lives and serves its purpose to create happiness. While lying is deceitful, it has some good uses. And as long as the lie harms no one, then there shouldn't be any problem. But what about when Kyubey uses lying to save the universe? Wouldn't that also be for the greatest good? No, it wouldn't be. Kyubey would have violated the liberty of individual girls by forcing them into contracts under false pretense, and by using falsehood and deception, Kyubey has tainted the utility and quality of the greater good. The problem with this assumption, is that it believes that Kyubey would lie, cheat, and steal to attain his goal when in facts it is the opposite. Let us first try to understand Kyubey's "deception" and determine if there is some ground for such accusation.<br />
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Observers would notice three things about Kyubey. Whenever it seeks a contract it would only give a basic information and minimal detail regarding what the job entails; when someone ask a question that could unravel the true nature of the Puella Magi System, Kyubey would try to give a satisfactory answer that doesn't divulge too much information; and sometimes when someone wants an honest answer from Kyubey, it would divulge answers that could be interpreted differently that, strictly speaking, could be misleading ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqzW0eHzDSQ&feature=relmfu a misleading truth]). The problem here is that none of this proves that Kyubey has ever lied. It is true that Kyubey has omitted information whenever it suited its purpose, it is also true that Kyubey divulged information with the prospect of influencing events to his favor, and that it tried to hide facts by being vague or evasive without being false. But, was Kyubey a liar? Was Kyubey maliciously deceiving girls for his advantage? In other words, there is a difference between being purposely deceitful and another is using misleading truths (without being false or lying) in the hope that it would be incorrectly interpreted on Kyubey's favor. <br />
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Let us start with Sayaka as an example. In [[Episode 2]], Sayaka asks Kyubey what are Witches and how are they any different from mahou shoujo. Kyubey's response was simple yet clever, if a mahou shoujo is born from wishes then witches are born from curses. So a mahou shoujo spreads hope while a Witch spreads despair. Nowhere in this sentence is Kyubey lying, technically Kyubey is not only telling the truth but it briefly gives a glimpse to the Puella Magi System. Of course, you have to read between the lines and be a bit clever to realize it but to anyone unfamiliar with the system, they wouldn't even give much of a second thought. At that moment if Sayaka had pressed further the issue, who knows how far could Kyubey could have avoided telling the whole truth. But sadly, Sayaka didn't. So in effect, as long as they fail to ask the right questions, it is not Kyubey's fault.<br />
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Let us look to another example regarding Kyubey's clever way to influence a situation by telling a misleading (but carefully prepared) truth. In [[Episode 9]], Kyoko asks Kyubey if there is a way to get Sayaka's Soul Gem back. Kyubey responds that it doesn't know of any known method. We all know that Kyubey is using a careful evasion not to divulge its opinion, but at the same time tries to divulge the truth. Kyoko not wanting to give up asks Kyubey if are there things that even Kyubey doesnt know. Kyubey replies that it doesn't know everything that there is to know. It acknowledges that the nature of magic defies logic and that it wouldn't be surprising if something absurd did came out of it (let us not forget, Kyubey makes the impossible possible). Kyoko takes Kyubey's response as acknowledging that there is a possibility for her hopes. However, that is a misleading truth. Kyubey does acknowledge that magic defies logic, that what Kyoko would try to attempt has never been tried before. But Kyubey also knows that what Kyoko is suggesting is impossible and would never succeed as it "defies logic"; and even if for some absurd miracle something did happen, the odds of it are astronomical. Of course, Kyubey doesn't tell her that directly, instead it uses misleading truths and facts to confuse Kyoko so she would reach to the wrong conclusion. If you read between the lines, Kyubey is saying that what Kyoko is attempting is foolish and impossible, but Kyubey also adds that magic belongs to the realm of the impossible and that its nature is not well understood (but I am certain that Kyubey is betting that logic would prevail). Whatever conclusion Kyoko ever arrives to, it is not Kyubey's fault. Since Kyubey would respond that it has only given her the information that she needed to reach to the right conclusion. If Kyoko misinterpreted Kyubey's information and instead got the wrong impression, then the fault lies with Kyoko. After all, Kyubey told her the truth and tries to neither encourage nor discourage Kyoko on her wrong conclusion. Kyubey does admit that it usually stops a pointless sacrifice (don't get the wrong idea, Kyubey just doesn't like to lose girls too early before their emotions can be harvested) but in this case it didn't stop her. According to Kyubey, losing Kyoko has a great advantage to further utility. Now, critics would point out that Kyubey killed Kyoko by not discouraging her to stop her foolish plan. It is true, Kyubey did not tried to stop her, instead it just allowed the situation to unfold itself. But here is what it gets tricky, according to Mill people have the freedom to do whatever they want as long as they are not hurting others ''"Government may not interfere with individual liberty in order to protect a person from himself, or to impose the majority's beliefs about how best to live"''("Justice", pg. 49). In essence, Kyubey was allowing Kyoko to exercise her right to recklessly endanger herself. Kyubey knows well the dangers ahead for Kyoko, but since it is Kyoko's right to get herself killed, why interfere? After all, Kyoko knows very well how dangerous it is to meddle with a Witch, she is a veteran mahou shoujo, so she already knows the risks already. If Kyoko wanted to risk her life for an impossible task, then that was her right and her freedom to do so. But let us say hypothetically, what if Kyoko knew what Kyuey was thinking and she still decided to take a gamble? What if Kyoko knew Kyubey was using misleading truths to get rid of her? Critics would say that Kyubey should had at least warn her and told her the truth of the matter. After all, Kyoko is stubborn and would do whatever she wants, no matter the objections. Here is what Mill's utility tell us. First of all, Kyubey has the right and liberty to discard and tell any information in any way it wants it to be, Kyubey can be directly honest and get to the point or deliver the truth in such a way that it could be misinterpreted (as long as Kyubey's words are truthful). Kyubey would also add that it did warn Kyoko on its own way, Kyubey told her that what Kyoko was attempting has never been done in the past and in Kyubey's mind that was an enough warning. What Kyoko does after that is still Kyoko's responsibility. In the end, the fact remains that Kyubey is not attempting to tell a lie but it is attempting to tell the truth in a way that makes it the listeners responsibility to discern the correct conclusion. To force Kyubey to tell Kyoko the whole truth would be a violation of Kyubey's liberty. Also, Kyubey is not harming Kyoko by not telling her the directly the truth. Instead, it is Kyoko who does the harming by not correctly deciphering Kyubey's information. Kyubey would suggest that nowhere at any time it harmed Kyoko, it was in fact [[Oktavia]] who did most of the harming, because Kyoko was too dumb to realize that what she was attempting to do was impossible, and even more dumber for not reading between the lines what Kyubey was telling her. In Kyubey's words, it would say that it never lied; it would acknowledge that it withhold information, but that was because they never asked further; and if anyone ever felt deceived, it is their own fault for misunderstanding Kyubey's words (words that were always truthful). For those who say that Kyubey is deceptive, they are correct but for a different reason that critics would like to believe. Kyubey was hoping its words would be misinterpreted (I don't doubt that was its goal) while still honoring the values of honesty and veracity. That's what frustrates Kyubey's critics. It is true that Kyube is hoping to mislead its victims. But at the same time, Kyubey is honoring the moral laws within the boundaries by hoping that the victims would believe the truth that it's saying and the fact that it's communicating. If the victims misunderstood it's words and the message that Kyubey is communicating, it is not Kyubey's fault. And for that reason one can say that Kyubey is hoping to mislead while at the same time honoring the moral laws without telling a lie. Yes, Kyubey is deceptive but he/she is not a liar.<ref>I would like to make it clear that this is a [[wikipedia:Categorical_imperative|categorical imperative]] from a Kantian philosophy regarding "telling a lie", it is defined as a way of evaluating motivations for action (See, [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|"Madoka and Minding her Motive"]]). Utilitarianism is considered a [[wikipedia:Consequentialism|consequentialism]], meaning that the moral worth of an action is determined by its resulting outcome. These two bands of philosophies are completely different from each other. But I thought Kant's explanation was much more beautiful and elegant regarding the difference between telling a lie and using a "misleading truth". If Kyubey was as smart as a [[wikipedia:Vulcan_(Star_Trek)|logical Vulcan]], I believe it would use the Kantian method of telling the truth.</ref><br />
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And before anyone objects by saying that Kyubey never warned the girls that becoming a mahou shoujo means getting your soul ripped from your body, we have to take a look back at [[Episode 2]]. When Mami was giving her introductions to Madoka and Sayaka, Kyubey informed the girls that it can grant any wish they want, but that the price of that wish is the production of the Soul Gem and fighting Witches. Let us disregard the obvious fact that the word ''"Soul"'' is in the name of the magical jewelry; if you read between the lines, Kyubey is telling the girls (in its subtle way) that by granting them one wish it would create a Soul Gem as its price for it. Kyubey may not spell it directly, but even with this subtle information, anyone smart enough would be able to conclude that someone's soul would be ripped to create that magical gem (at least on Kyubey's mind). In other words, Kyubey did warn and informed the girls about how Soul Gems are created, they were just not clever enough to decipher that information. <br />
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Before we end this section I would like to address a criticism regarding an issue that none of the girls who contracted by Kyubey wished to become Witches. It is true that no mahou shoujo wants to become a witch. But let us examine Kyubey's language when it asks many of those girls if they would like to make a contract. When Kyubey asks Madoka if she would like to become a mahou shoujo, what Kyubey is actually asking is if Madoka would like to stop being human. Remember, what is a mahou shoujo? They are girls who can use magic, their healing abilities and strengths are faster and superior to humans, and it is suspected if their bodies were damaged they could be replaced (this is the closest to immortality they would ever get). Now, what is to be human? It is certain it is none of what I stated previously. Humans can't do magic, they dont heal fast, and they dont have replacing body parts when they are mangled horribly. When Kyoko was angry and told Kyubey that it changed them into zombies. Kyubey's answered that it was the only way that they could become a mahou shoujo, that there would be no other way to achieve the same such results or be able to use magic effectively. For safety and efficiency reasons their souls are turn into soul gems so a mahou shoujo can do their job more effectively, making them invincible and giving them better odds to survive a battle against a Witch. Isn't that nice from Kyubey? After all, it is looking after the best interest of the girls. It would be just as crueler to send weak human girls to fight against witches, in a way the Soul Gem process is much more "humane". Kyubey would also explain that the process of becoming a Witch is just an unfortunate effect of the mahou shoujo process. If they dont want to become Witches all they have to do is not taint their souls too much. Yet, never the least, the girls accepted the risk by making a contract and becoming a mahou shoujo. And with that comes the risks of the job. <br />
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===Bentham, the true monster. Mill, impractical idealism.===<br />
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After studying and reviewing the information, we can conclude without a doubt that Kyubey faithfully follows a Utilitarian philosophy. But it is also clear to mention that Kyubey's utilitarianism seems to be a mixture blend of Bentham's and Mill's thinking. Sometimes Kyubey would swing to one formula of utility and then swing back when it is convenient to do so. But it remains mostly on Mill's side most of the time, with the exception of when the whole planet is devastated. One could presume to suggest that Kyubey's thinking is not "The End Justifies the Means" as much as "Using Mill's Means to attain Bentham's End". Let me be the first say that Kyubey's Utilitarianism shares some similar values to Bentham and Mill. However, because Kyubey doesn't follow one principle of utility but a different version, we have to then assume that it is neither and both for two reasons. First, Kyubey is restrained by the rules that the alien race has laid on him. If Kyubey believed Bentham's utility wholly, it would disregard their rules and force Madoka into a contract regardless of her will or the rules itself. Instead, Kyubey tries to remain within the parameters and at the same time achieve the goals given to it. Second, if Kyubey had any respect for Mill's notion of Utilitarianism, then Kyubey has failed. Mill ideal version of utility is that with time the values of Utilitarianism would create progressive thinking and moral decisions based on utility that would allow the delivery of the greatest good. If Kyubey tried to follow Mill's ideal version of Utility, then he would be the less productive Incubator in the whole Universe; at that rate the end of the universe would be guaranteed. But it isn't so much as Kyubey failed Mill as Mill failed Kyubey. The problem with Mill's thinking is that it tries to maintain the principles of utility and the moral values of individual liberty at the same time. Critics have blasted Mill's utility as being naive and contradictory to Utilitarianism, some would suggest that Mill's formula violates the principle of Utility all together. Mill has proven that it can humanize utilitarianism when it adds a moral ideal of human dignity into the formula, but those ideals are independent of utility itself. Mill's formula would never achieve the greatest good that reflects the highest virtue of human value as long as it tries to maintain it within the realm of utility.<br />
<br />
Since Kyubey is from a very advance alien race, I have to assume Kyubey's utility shares similarities to our own understanding of Utility, but at the same time it is also unique because it transcends Bentham's and Mill's thinking, thus making it into a third form of Utilitarian thinking that shares some of their values but for a different end than Bentham or Mill would conclude. This is, of course, speculation.<br />
<br />
It is very clear that many critics and detractors have accused Kyubey of being evil, a liar, and a manipulator for good measure. But I would like to point out that they have failed to understand Kyubey and his own way of thinking to demonstrate why Kyubey is wrong. Their views have been mostly on the human side of the issue. Failing to see it from Kyubey's perspective to understand Kyubey. We have to remember that it is not easy to judge an alien race that we know little about, not even their moral values, but for the sake of argument we have to at least try. According to Homura, she doesn't think Kyubey thinks itself to be evil or cruel, she believes Kyubey just have a different perspective regarding morality so it fails to understand human values. However, that doesn't mean Homura trust Kyubey or believes she can reason with it. But let us be clear, by understanding Kyubey's utilitarianism I am not trying to justify its action. Instead, I am trying to comprehend Kyubey's point of view and perspective. What I have learned from Kyubey's point of view is that the issues regarding if Kyubey is evil or not is moot. What we should be concerned is the way Kyubey sees the world, which is much more disturbing and terrifying, and the worst part is that people who think the same way as Kyubey don't think that they are evil either or that they are doing anything wrong. <br />
<br />
===Kyubey: CEO of Entropy, INC.===<br />
<br />
If I had to describe Kyubey from any organism from our world, I would say that no organism exist that is similar to Kyubey. The closest we have is a human being. But even at that it would fail to describe Kyubey accurately, because Kyubey shares many differences than similarities with humans. Just like humans, Kyubey demonstrates high intelligence and faculties similar to humans, but unlike humans it lacks emotions; it cannot die but instead spawn new bodies; and is able to grant abilities that itself cannot exercise or posses, humans could only dream of having such abilities.<br />
<br />
So instead, rather than imagine Kyubey from any known living organism I would like to think Kyubey is similar to a non-living entity that is not just similar to Kyubey, but it paints a perfect picture of what Kyubey is. This non-living entity seems to follow Kyubey's philosophy regarding utilitarianism that is neither Bentham's or Mill's version. It uses Mill's means to attain Bentham's ends. Like Kyubey, it also has a goal to maximize utility for its own advantage. <br />
<br />
Let us remember, an alien race created an artificial entity that is highly intelligent with no emotions, these aliens bestowed upon Kyubey certain abilities and limitations but also parameters known as "rules". Kyubey is assigned with a very simple mission and duty: follow the rules stated by the alien race (it cannot force humans into a contract. It also means it cannot also lie but it is allowed the flexibility to limit his information as long as it is truthful), maximize the collection of energy to repair the universe without violating the given parameters, and protect the girls until they reach to their maximum potential. Now, let us imagine that Kyubey is not an artificial organism created by an alien race, let us think of Kyubey as a Corporation created by a group of business people. "Kyubey", as the company is known, has a business mandate: follow the national and international laws regarding trade and finances set up by an entity known as "the government". "Kyubey" as a company is not allowed to exercise illegal activities, but the laws are flexible and deregulated enough to allow for a company to pursue interests that would benefit a free market society in a very competitive enviroment, if it wishes to survive it would take advantage of the loosened rules (in other words, as long as it is withing the boundaries of the law and it is not illegal, the company is protected from liability); and "Kyubey" must maximize company profits in order to not only benefit shareholders but to also avoid a bankruptcy or being taken over by the competition. "Kyubey" believes its existence is essential for the survival of the market/financial economy (so think of the universe as a large financial consortium). Without Corporations there is no free market or capitalism, and without Incubators you can say goodbye to the universe. <br />
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I am certain some of you would think that I am overreaching with my thinking but let us just assume that my assertion is possible for the moment. One day "Kyubey" is taken to court and it stands accused of several crimes. The proceedings state that the company has violated several laws and disregarded the rights of their employees. The first criminal accusation would be false advertisement and failure to disclose information. Sayaka, the accuser, would declare that she would have never made a contract if she had known that her soul would be ripped from her body and that she would become a witch. As stated before, what Sayaka calls false advertisement, Kyubey would defend himself by stating that Sayaka failed to "read between the lines" and if she didn't understand the conditions of the contract she should have contacted a lawyer of her own. The other issue regarding becoming a Witch, "Kyubey" would explain that Sayaka had more than enough information to make an educated decision regarding the risks of the job. According with the company, Sayaka knew the risks of becoming a mahou shoujo, what happens after the facts (or in this case, death) bears no consequence, nor does it make any difference regarding occupational hazard and safety (in other words, knowing that Sayaka would become a Witch during her period of employment would not have prevented her from becoming one). Not to mention it would be reckless endangerment to send weak little girls against witches; so the company has a policy regarding safety and health to protect their employees against hazards, ergo they rip their souls to make soul gems to minimize pain and increase their magical powers. What kind of employee sues a company for trying to reduce occupational hazards? Isn't Sayaka being ungrateful? <br />
<br />
And regarding Sayaka's objection to her "uninformed" consent. As an example, let us say that "Kyubey" is a weapons manufacturing company and they employed Sayaka to create missiles. Sayaka knows what missiles are and that they are used during military campaigns. However, Sayaka believes that the missiles would only be used to kill evil people. One day she learns that one of the missiles she helped to construct was used to blow up a building that was suspected to house enemy combatants but instead it killed innocent civilians. While it is true that "Kyubey" sold the missile to the military for the purpose of warfare. There is no way that the company could have predicted that it would be used to cause innocent casualties; the company is aware of the possibility of such scenario. But we have to remember that this future event or circumstance is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty. According to "Kyubey", becoming a witch is not a certaintity but just a possible outcome. And in any case, "Witchification" is no different than death. So knowing or not knowing, for the sake of safety and health on Sayaka's part, makes no difference. The job still comes with the same risks, anyway. Nothing has changed.<br />
<br />
But "Kyubey" would state that divulging sensitive information regarding "company secrets" would be detrimental for company morale. In fact, by not divulging sensitive information that would be a hindrance for employees to maximize their potentials, the company and employees like Sayaka would be able to achieve their potential without any unnecessary distractions. By knowing sensitive information, employees like Sayaka would lose focus and increase the potential of creating a hostile environment. <br />
<br />
As one final act, "Kyubey" would state that as a company it has a responsibility to their shareholders by maximizing its profits. People may question a company's policy and its methods of obtaining profits, but as long as no legal laws have been broken then no crime has been committed. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" would state that as a company they are obligated to make no exceptions nor reverse their company policy just because a mahou shoujo feels like what they are doing is wrong. After all, "Kyubey" is a company not a charity. It is true that Kyubey does provide an exchange for products and services, so it is not "free", there is a price for it. If Kyubey were to grant wishes for free (without collecting souls or despair energy), not only there would be a quick depletion of energy, but their company would go bankrupt. The reason Kyubey collects souls is that they need them to create more despair energy, the more despair energy Kyubey creates, the safer the universe becomes. And the more energy Kyubey has on reserve, the more energy they can use to be reinvested to hire new and more mahou shoujo. So, Kyubey as an industry does not only provide products and services, but as a company they are also protecting the universe and reinvesting their energy to provide wishes and employment to more girls. It is true that "Kyubey" is polluting their cities with curses, familiars, and witches that are detrimental to humans. But can anyone point out to any company that has never produced toxic waste (or even just normal waste) during its lifetime? And what about the benefits that many girls have obtainted? Girls like Mami were given a second life, otherwise she would be dead. Kyouko was able to avoid destitution and hunger thanks to her wish. And even Sayaka was able to get the opportunity to heal a friend. Can anyone complain that Kyubey's services are not essential to the community and society? Kyubey as a company has saved lives, provided food and housing opportunity for the destitute, and healed incurable diseases and physical disabilities; making society and the human race more productive, safer from [[wikipedia:Heat_death_of_the_universe|death heat]], and better in the long run. <br />
<br />
And as a business, the company has an obligation to be financially sound. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" is an important member of the community. After all, society and the whole human race have profited from Kyubey's products, and services. Kyubey's presence on Earth is essential for human progress. Without Kyubey's interference, humanity would never have achieved and advanced in the areas of art, culture, history, medicine, philosophy, science, technology, and other progresses. In fact, without Kyubey, humans would still be naked and living in caves. Before anyone can accuse the company of being selfish and greedy, perhaps humanity should asks themselves if they are in any better position to be self-righteous against the company after benefiting from so much? Specially, since all of human progress is thanks to the sacrifice and despair of innocent little girls.<br />
<br />
===Why is Kyubey wrong.===<br />
<blockquote>''"If you ever feel like dying for this universe, just call us."'' ~ Kyubey, [[Episode 9]].</blockquote><br />
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I would like to add one last comparison regarding Kyubey as a corporation and the philosophy of utility. As I have stated before, Kyubey used Mill's means to attain Bentham's end. What I mean is that a Corporation would try to stay within the boundaries of the law to maximize its profit and size, but it would also use Kyubey's method to eliminate its competition and achieve Bentham's end, which would be either be the elimination of all competition or achieving a total monopoly on the market. After all, the purpose of a company is to prolong its existence and to promote the idea that without them there is no free market. Just like Kyubey wants to prolong the existence of the universe and without Incubators there is no one to stop the end of the universe. But as we have observed, Kyubey's approach and solution is quite unnerving. Specially when we are asked to accept the suffering of little girls as a form of payment to enjoy the fruits of past labors and sufferings. But I would like to add one last thought. One of the reasons that utilitarianism has it critics is its attempt to use market values to achieve a noble and moral choice. This is not just reserved only to corporations; [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost%E2%80%93benefit_analysis government entities] and individuals attempt to do the same everyday[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2Rq4HJBxw&feature=relmfu]. Not only does utilitarianism fails in its noble and moral goal, but during the process we have probably noticed that humanity and the human soul has been reduced as a form of currency. Think about it, Kyubey would not accept no other form of payment but a human soul, something that it is considered to be sacred and holy (depending on your beliefs). Now suddenly, this alien creature decides that humans souls are no different than commodities to be traded. This utilitarian attempt to reduce all and everything as a commodity, including a human soul and the right of sale of it, is a degradation of our humanity that is being packaged as goods. It loses its moral value and dignity in the marketing process.<ref>''"Certain modes of valuation are appropriate to certain goods and practices. In the case of commodities, such as cars and toasters, the proper way of valuing them is to use them, or to make them and sell them for profit. But it's a mistake to treat all things as if they were commodities. It would be wrong, for example, to treat human beings as commodities, mere things to be bought and sold. That's because human beings are persons worthy of respect, not objects to be used. Respect and use are two different modes of valuation."'' Michael Sandel, "Justice" (pg 96).</ref> This causes us to rethink what makes us human and the values we hold as a civilized society. The reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is not that it is evil; the reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is what it represents. If a human soul can be reduced as a mere currency, or resource, or commodity ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IojqOMWTgv8&feature=related or a battery]), and we are willing to emulate Kyubey's methods and values, then we as humans have failed to realized and recognized our own dignity and value within ourselves. Because Kyubey may be an alien from a different world, but its values are no different from ours once we close examine it.<br />
<br />
===Closing===<br />
<br />
I would like to reiterate that this is my personal interpretation and opinion regarding Kyubey's utilitarianism and its moral values. This is not an attempt to put words on the creators of the anime series but an attempt to grasp a better understanding of it. I have used resources like the anime series, interviews, and Michael Sandel's book "Justice" to attain a better comprehension and analysis of the Kyubey character. The views of this essay are my own --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 11:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
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<b>Notes:</b><br />
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<references/><br />
<br />
===In Opposition===<br />
<br />
The above is well written, but suffers a single, but overwhelming, flaw. As I'm not a philosopher, please bear with me, but I believe my words hold merit. The main flaw of the above article is simple: Kyubey, himself, claims to not feel emotions, and is purely logical. However, Utilitarianism is the maximisation of happiness, and the minimisation of grief, which is the opposite of Kyubey's nature - he lacks the ability to feel either happiness or grief, and as such, does not care about it whatsoever. However, he does desire to live, the most basic of all instincts. As a being that possesses only logic and the desire to survive, all of it's efforts are devoted to a logical way of living as long as physically possible. Logically, this survival would be given the priority of the survival of it's own species, survival of itself, survival of those of it's own species, the survival of prey species, and, finally, the survival of strategically advantageous (i.e., allied) species. <br />
<br />
If it's environment is reaching a physical limit to support it's existence, it acts to counter this, whether by increasing it's environment's parameters or limiting those factors acting against it. In the case of a population crisis, this would be finding more suitable ground in which to survive, or culling off competitor species, or, in an extreme case, members of it's own species. Taken to the most extreme level, that the universe is going to end eventually, even if that event is several hundred times further in the future than it's own species has lived thus far, then action must be taken to prevent or limit this collapse, so long as no more pressing matters exist. Regardless of the actual need to lengthen the life span of the universe, this is what an otherwise unoccupied, emotionless, logical species would do, and it is where the plot of the series is derived. On a similar extrapolation, Kyubey's race have conquered personal death - they can move themselves into a spare body, should they die. That, too, is an example of their attempt to control death on any level possible for them.<br />
<br />
As a logical species, Kyubey chooses actions based on mathematics. The Probability of something happening, and the Effort needed to achieve it - that is, the result of Work and Time - and the ultimate result are the core components of it's decisions. As Kyubey lacks emotions, specifically, shame and guilt, it sees no need to gain consent if it does not need it. That Kyubey does attempt to gain consent suggests that either it does need it, or that gaining consent is easier than utilising brute force upon the issue - as it is their soul, they may respond in a negative manner by pure subconscious instinct, though this is entirely speculation. However, Kyubey does not put excessive effort into making certain that it's contractors are aware of the situation that they are being put into. Kyubey is perfectly aware that it is supplying minimalist information. Logically, Sayaka or Madoka or Mami should think things through and ask for more information, as Kyubey would do. However, the terminology is intentionally misleading. The term "Soul Gem" is given in English, despite his audience being 13 year old Japanese girls. When a young Japanese person, with English being a secondary language, at best, hears the word "soul", they do not connect it to the Japanese word "Tamashii", but to pop culture, and the use of the English word as flavour text to imply a certain spirituality, especially with spirituality being a low priority subject for a classroom lesson. This goes double with magical girls, which commonly use word choices which have very little to do with the purpose of an item. For example, in Sailor Moon, there are the Witches 5, who are part of the Death Busters, and one of them has a "Fire Buster". However, there's actually 6 Witches, the Death Busters do very little busting of death, and the Fire Buster is a flame thrower, not a fire-fighting tool. Similarly, it's suggested by Kyubey that "Witch" is derived from the characters for "Magical Girl", but even to the Japanese, this is elusive, as it's considered that "Evil" (Ma) and "Magical" (Mahou) are two entirely different words, despite the character for the former being used as part of the latter. Such cases are not unusual in the Japanese language. Thus, Kyubey intentionally uses a language choice which suggests the circumstances as they are, but phrased in a way that requires fairly extensive fact checking to be certain of what's going on, in the typical manner of someone who believes themselves very intelligent. In addition, keeping the truth of the matter quite can be very helpful, as Kyubey's purpose is to instil grief upon his contractors. Usually, this takes care of itself, but if necessary, it could make a useful catalyst - for example, in the case of Mami, who seems quite stable, and seems unlikely to transform without this being pointed out to her.<br />
<br />
As for Kyoko, the probability of Kyoko ever bearing fruit may be slim, and Kyubey is not greedy. Perhaps the evolved Familiars provide as much grief as a magical girl, but at the least, it's providing that at a 5:1 ratio of kills to magical girls, in a situation where Kyoko herself is unnecessary, as a more fragile, incompetent and/or single-minded girl could be contracted to take her place. If the transformation process of Magical Girl to Witch is necessary to gather energy, then Kyoko - who is ruthless enough to avoid spending too much magical power and cold enough to survive her father's mass-murder-suicide with no transformation - will provide dividends at an extremely low probability. By supplying the most minimal level of information - or, rather, a succinct but accurate level of information, which is perfectly logical when dealing with a species with such a small communications bandwidth such as humanity - a situation in which four possibilities arises. 1) The death of Kyoko, creating a higher probability of the high-dividend, average-probability Madoka contracting. 2) Kyoko's success, resulting in Sayaka returning to normal, paving the way for an infinitely regenerating energy source. 3) Kyoko's failure, which does not positively or negatively affect Kyubey in any significant way. And 4) Kyoko's failure, followed by her transformation into a Witch, finally returning dividends on a long term investment. None of these significantly impact Kyubey in any negative manner at all, given the information on hand. Thus, Kyoko's attempt to confront Oktavia is desirable to him, and should not be prevented.<br />
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I'd like to leave it here for now. As I said at the beginning, it's my opinion that all of Kyubey's actions can be explained by the desire to live, without any messy morality being involved in the process, and I've provided several examples for this, which I believe are more logically explained, and more fully intertwined with canon statements, than my predecessor's. [[User:MrSP|MrSP]] 14:16, 4 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::The problem that I see is the desire to live or self preservation, an instinct, is an emotion by itself. Self-preservation is a desire to live, which sounds very "emotional". Let us say that logic indicates that what Kyubey is doing is only buying them time, that it wont stop the ultimate fate of the universe, their actions and their probability of success depends on the possibility that they will overcome entropy by harvesting enough energy. If the odds were on their favor then their acts are logical, if it is against their favor then it is illogical. Considering how Kyubey was trying so hard in getting Madoka it seems to indicate that Kyubey was getting "greedy" (for lack of a better term) and willing to sacrifice a whole planet for a short term gain (of course, I am guessing...). If this is correct then their quotas must be lacking and they may require some adjustments to maximize their energy yield. Yet as we saw Kyubey seems to have rules to follow, albeit he does bend them to his favor. If Kyubey is desperate to overcome entropy it would be much more easier just to follow a "slash and burn" policy and be damned about it. Of course, as you pointed out perhaps this method wont yield enough results, yet if we consider the size of the human population or even of the entire galaxy, even if one forced soul doesnt yield alot of energy, it may add up by the accumulative effect. Of course this is speculation. But the other issue is that we have to consider the possibility that even a civilization like Kyubey must be bounded by rules to live by, no matter how logical they are. The foundation of every civilization or society is to establish laws and rules, why? to minimize chaos and disorder so it doesn't collapse. Such a civilization would require a body politic to establish an extensive network, energy quotas, suggestions how to gather efficient energy, planetary exploration, etc, it needs an institution to run things properly. It also minimizes conflict with other groups or more advance civilizations. I wouldnt be surprised if there are other more advance alien races out there, and some of these organizations have imposed rules on Kyubey's civilization to make the whole process "more fair" and turn a blind eye at the same time and pretend everything is alright... Of course, speculation. We have no choice but to work as much as we can within the framework... And as for equating happiness with emotions. Now remember, Utilitarianism fails to grasp or define what "happiness" means or is to individuals or to society. When I say "happiness", I do not mean on the emotional joyful level, but what I mean in what it can maximize what would be beneficial to society as a whole (or at least to the most fortunate of the group), on in Kyubey's case the universe. While Kyubey doesnt have emotions, they do seek to maximize the lifespan of the universe itself, that would be their "happiness" for a lack of a better term, at the expense of the "suffering" of lesser groups or few planets. We can change "happiness" to "profit" or even to "energy" etc... it doesnt change much of the concept, just the definition but the aim is the same: maximize something at the cost of minimizing something else. IF Kyubey is driven by self preservation as you just suggested, then we have consider the possibility that not only can they feel emotion, but they are being selfish by imposing their rules and beliefs on others and disguise it as "logic". But what if they are not being selfish, just logical and what if their logic just happens to arrive and align to their own self interest and the interest of "others"? Help the universe survive and at the same time allow other worlds, not just their own, to benefit from it? This justification would be enough to convince even the most logical that what they are doing has long term benefits for the majority, at the expense of the minority. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 15:50, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::I would like to also point out that Bentham's utilitarianism tries to divorce morality to justify an action that is beneficial to a group or society, a reason why it has its critics because it tries to discard the messy morality. However, there are unusual discrepancies in Kyubey's action, remember it has always been pointed out as being utilitarian, yet its version seems to differ as it tries to combine both Bentam's and Mill's and it is difficult to explain it without any further details, which is why we speculate. All I can do is trying to find a reason for this transition or discrepancy. However, to me it is not good enough to say that Kyubey's actions are driven by self-preservation that lacks any emotion behind it, if there is any logic behind their actions then we have to see it beyond just "self-preservation" and make a logical argument about it that justifies it... a drive for self-preservation is not just an attempt for the continuation of an species, but it also implies a fear of death. Do kyubey's race fears death? I dont know, but they clearly dont want the universe to end and they see a logic to prologue their existence... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 16:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Kyoko, Puella Magi, and Libertarianism ==<br />
At first I disliked the character of Kyoko because she was so unlike Mami and Sayaka, but then she wormed her way into my heart and looking at the character as a whole one can appreciate her character on its own. I will try to work withing the principle [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw4l1w0rkjs&feature=relmfu philosophy of libertarianism] to try to understand her character to better appreciate her, but also demonstrate why the character of Kyoko could be destructive to society as a whole. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
As always, this will take a while... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
<b>Libertarianism: an assertion to freedom</b><br />
<br />
<b>John Locke: Life, liberty and the pursuit of wishes</b><br />
<br />
<b>My Soul Gem, My Choice</b><br />
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<b>A Free Market Solution for a Puella Magi Problem</b><br />
<br />
<b>The Puella Magi Cartel</b><br />
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<b>Puella Magi: Girls of Justice or Magical Mercenaries?</b><br />
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<b>Happiness does not equate freedom. Freedom does not equate happiness.</b><br />
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<s><b>Puellae Magi: a PR Illusion and the Issue of False Interpretation.</b></s></div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Community:Philosophical_Observations&diff=45141Community:Philosophical Observations2012-08-19T07:49:37Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>Moving Philosophical essays and observations to this page --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 05:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Keep in mind, this is only speculation and observation. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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==Madoka and Minding her Motive==<br />
<blockquote>-''"Why is mom working so hard for a company that she never dreamed of working with?" <br>"Hmmm... Mom doesnt like working, she likes working hard. There are a lot of things that she doesn't like about it, but she likes the feeling of satisfaction she gets when she overcomes those obstacles, those achivements are precious to her. It doesn't mean that she dreamed to work for that company. But Mom is living her ideal life, and some dreams come true this way."<br>- "so you make how you live into your dream?"'' ~ Madoka and her father. [[Episode 3]]</blockquote><br />
<br />
During the series we notice that Madoka cant never make up her mind when it comes to making a decision, if she will make a wish or not. All she seems to be doing is stalling, crying, and blaming herself for being so weak. But is that really what is happening? It is true, Madoka feels weak and small, powerless to do anything for anyone. She knows that by becoming a Puella Magi that feeling of worthlessness within her would change. But she is also afraid of dying or worst, becoming a witch, a monster that could destroy her world and hurt even her family. Madoka feels trapped, she feels like she has no choice. But there is also something happening behind her mind as well. Before Madoka can take any action, she needs to understand herself.<br />
<br />
The intellectual philosopher Kant states that ''"If all human beings are worthy of respect, regardless of who they are or where they live, then it's wrong to treat them as mere instruments of the collective happiness."'' To Kant, utilitarianism (and Kyubey) is not only immoral but incorrect. One example is the shopkeeper: ''"A child goes to the store and buys a loaf of bread. The grocer could overchage the kid, charge him more than the usual price for a loaf of bread and the child would never know. But the grocer realizes that if his customers discovered that he took advantage of a child, word might spread out and hurt his business. For this reason, he decides not to overcharge the kid. So he charges him the usual price. So the shopkeeper does the right thing, but for the wrong reason. The only reason he deals honestly with the child is to protect his reputation. The shopkeeper acts honestly only for the sake of self interest; the shopkeeper's action lacks moral worth."'' To Kant, what matters is the quaility of the will, the character of the motive."[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rv-4aUbZxQ&feature=BFa&list=SP30C13C91CFFEFEA6&index=6]<br />
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This example works the same way with Sayaka. Sayaka made a contract with Kyubey to heal Kyosuke. Superficially it seems like a selfless noble act to help a friend. But that is not Sayaka's true motive, regardless of whatever she says to defend her actions. Sayaka's true motive is that if Kyosuke is healed, he would not only get better but he would also fall in love with Sayaka for her sacrifice. But that wasn't Sayaka's wish nor that is what happened. And because Sayaka's wish went unfulfilled she felt into despair, not because she was selfish but because she failed to recognize her real motive behind her wish. Not only that but she used the act of healing Kyosuke as a way to earn Kyosuke's love as a form of reward to be expected from her sacrifice. Sayaka violated her own rights as an attempt to gain something in return, and she never consulted with Kyosuke if he would ever accept such deal (nor is he under any obligation to do so; and if Sayaka tried to force Kyosuke under such deal she would be violating his rights as well, since he never gave consent). In essence Sayaka is expecting a reward or a payment for her sacrifice. <br />
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We need to understand Madoka's true motives regarding in becoming a Puella Magi prior to [[Episode 11]] and her refusal during the series. It is easy to see why Madoka would refuse to make a wish, it means death (or a fate worst than death) so any rational person would refuse (as we saw during her conversation with Homura in [[Episode 4]]). But if that is the case then why is Madoka kept tempted to make a wish? This is where motive is important. In [[Episode 8]] Sayaka has a fight with Madoka, this leads to Madoka to blame herself for being weak and terrified of helping her friend. Madoka hates herself for this. Now at first it seems like Madoka is regretting her lack of action and she is tempted to make a wish to help and save Sayaka from her suffering, but this is not so. Madoka's motive is not to help Sayaka, instead she is afraid of being hated by Sayaka, a completely different understanding lacking the true nobility of friendship. There is another observation that is equally important, Madoka's scene with Kyubey in which he is trying to temp Madoka to make a wish. In this scene Kyubey is trying to convince Madoka that by making a wish she could become a god, he is trying to deceive Madoka into the belief that by becoming a powerful god she can fix everything. But what Kyubey doesnt tell her is that there are no guarantees nor he has any interest to fix anything. But let us look at Madoka's motive behind Kyubey's suggestion for her to become a powerful god. At first glance it seems like Madoka is willing to become a sacrifice to the universe so she can fix everything, save everyone. But is that Madoka's true motive? As before, Madoka's motive is not to fix everything for the good, but to fix the wrongs so she would stop suffering from the feelings of sorrow about herself and others (she wants to change Sayaka back to normal, perhaps as a way to atone her cowardly lack of action). It is during this scene that Madoka confesses to Kyubey that she always felt insignificant and useless. She felt that she would never be able to do anything for anyone to create happiness for others and for herself (a similar conversation took place with Homura in [[Drama CD 1|the drama CD ''"Memories of You"'']]). As you can see Madoka's intention at first seem noble but that is not her true motive; what we learn is that Madoka wishes she could be useful so she would stop being worthless (what Madoka desires is to stop feeling sorry about herself, she wants to avoid any more pain and suffering). Nothing has changed, Madoka continues to believe she is weak, that she is powerless, that if she fixes everything she can feel good about herself. If we watch the scene at first it seems like Kyubey is suggesting a noble sacrifice but in truth all Madoka wants to do is to end the suffering so she would stop her own suffering as well.<br />
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As the series progresses, Madoka's thoughts are slowly changing, specially in [[Episode 11]]. Madoka learns an important lesson from Kyubey, a history of sacrifice and how it has affected humanity. Madoka realizes that it is not about her anymore, it is about the people around her and the puellae magi that came before her. The sacrifices of those girls, their suffering, and how all mankind benefited from it. <br />
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Madoka has gained a lot of information that allows her to reflect about herself, and about others. Madoka's motives changes from "I want to stop being weak and feeling bad about myself" to "I want to save everyone, not to feel good about myself, but to stop the suffering and save everyone" and that "everyone" includes her family, her friends, and Homura. That's Madoka's true motive. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself (''"To act freely is not to choose the best means to a given end. It's to choose the end itself for its own sake"''). By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence. What Madoka is doing is trying to respect the humanity of others (and the puellae magi), she isnt using her own sacrifice to make herself good, she cast away that selfish idea ("being selfless for selfish reasons"). During her scene with her mother in [[Episode 11]] Madoka has finally grown up, she knows that what she is doing will hurt her family but she also knows that she is the only one who can save her family and her town from disaster. Not as a noble sacrifice, but as a moral duty as an adult. Madoka wants to do the right thing for the right reasons, she wants to stop the Puellae Magi's suffering, not to make Madoka powerful, not to make Madoka feel good about herself, but because she truly believes it is the right thing to do to stop the cycle of suffering. <br />
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Madoka's journey was long and painful and critics would like to say that Madoka was too indecisive. But I think the reason it was such a long journey for Madoka it's because Madoka was just being a typical teenage girl trying to figure out herself.<br />
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As a final note, the concert scene with Sayaka is an indicator of how much Madoka has grown. Madoka admits that she could have changed Sayaka's fate, but to do so she would have to stop her from making her wish, so instead she allows Sayaka's right to follow her decision. Sayaka agrees with Madoka's choice to respect her own decisions and the consequences that come with it (as they seem to be aware of the Law of Cycles). This indicates that Madoka respects the puellae magi's wishes and their choices, giving them the dignity and respect that Kyubey never gave them. Then when their time was over, Madoka would come and help them pass so their sacrifice wouldn't be in vain and their suffering would end quietly with no regrets. According with an interview with Urobuchi, this is [http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/pandoras-box-1-madoka-goes-terrorist/ Madoka's own way to acknowledge the magical girls' own hopes and wishes without negating them]. ''"Instead of living to chase after a dream as your goal, you should turn your way of living into your dream."''<br />
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:I never actually thought that reading someone else's philosophically-founded analysis could increase my understanding of an anime, but you've done it. This was very insightful for me. とっても素敵。[[User:Holycrap|Holycrap]] 21:16, 19 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I really think the characters in Madoka could be philosophically analyzed, Kyoko is one character I would like to try. I think there she has a mixture of extreme Libertarian philosophies within her character but my understanding of philosophy is limited. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree with Kant, but not with you. Sayaka is a selfless person with her own desire as well, but she helped Kyosuke not just because of her selfish desire, but also her good will. The problem of Sayaka is her compulsive personality, she forces herself to be a good person, while taking great damage(mental and physical) for other people, she ignores her own heart(In episode 9, what is written on the posters on the wall at the entrance of Octavia's barrier is a twisted form of "look at me", as mentioned by Yuuki Aoi in the commentary video). In a sense, this is very selfless, but you may also say her selflessness is fake because it's the "compulsive selflessness" and it is not the will of her true heart. However, still, Sayaka is basically a selfless person, it's wrong to interpret her as a selfish person, a selfless person is not a person without any selfish desires. <br />
:It is very wrong to interpret Madoka as a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:47, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I dont doubt she was selfless, but the purpose of this philosophical opinion is if Madoka was selfless for the right reasons or selfless for the wrong reason. I am not bashing Madoka, instead I believe Madoka overcomes her difficulty by doing self reflection. Remember, in all timelines Madoka always becomes a Witch. No matter what wish she makes, the wish would be twisted because of the logical nature of it (according with Kyubey). Instead, Madoka overcomes it by understanding the nature of the wish and understanding her own self. Self-reflection. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::What I said is that Madoka had never being a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, when I say "...she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed", I mean she's a true selfless person who's selfless for selfless reasons, and this has never changed. The thing that made Madoka see hope, and resonate with it, which turns her into her ultimate form, is the love of Homura(the spiral of love spins around the arrow of hope, supporting it, protecting it, making it powerful - another important metaphor; it is so beautiful and powerful, isn't it?), not a realization of that she had being selfless for selfish reasons, because she had never being.[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 22:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::::I dont doubt Madoka wants to be good and selfless, but I disagree with the idea she was wholly selfless. She was pure and innocent but not a saint. Madoka is the embodiment of innocence, childhood, and love. But Madoka is also a character who carries flaws like her lack of self-esteem or her inability to believe in herself from the very beginning (this is one reason many fans disliked her in the beginning. They dismissed her as lacking character and a coward, which I disagree). When Madoka cries or feels bad, that's a natural reaction from a child. Madoka stopped running away and crying in the end when she became a bit wiser and mature. We also saw that her idea of mahou shoujo in the begining was more in line with a typical magical girl shows and she wanted to emulate Mami's courage and strength without truly understanding how much Mami had to sacrifice. Once she learns and experiences her life difficulties, instead of running she faces it. Madoka is growing, evolving. If Madoka was selfless and pure since the beginning then there is no transformative element, there is no "change" and with that there is no true hope (for the rest of humanity or the Puella Magi). Madoka's transformation as a Witch is not a result of Madoka's corruption of her purity, it was Madoka's inability to see her own corruptive power. It is true that Homura's love for Madoka led to Madoka's transformative change. However, we have to remember that Madoka didn't develop deep feeling for Homura. Even Homura can see it in Episode 11 and states that their feeling are growing apart. Madoka only realizes Homura's feelings at the end of her evolved transformation. If you listen to Madoka's conversation, she states that she could not understand Homura until Madoka was able to see all of her previous versions and timelines. Only then Madoka could comprehend Homura in a deep manner. Even Urobuchi agrees with this, and that is why he calls it [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Shinjidai_no_Mixture_Magazine_BLACK_PAST "cruel"]. That doesn't mean that Madoka didn't care for Homura's safety in Episode 12, it just means that Madoka cared for the safety of everyone in town (including her family ) at that time. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::::Madoka is selfless at the beginning, but she couldn't see hope and resonate with it while facing the greatest darkness, until Homura's love making her powerful - that's the transformation, love makes her see, that despair is unnecessary, no matter how strong the darkness is, it can always be shattered by hope(which means the non-increasing nature of hope and non-decreasing nature of despair is not true, not matter how it seems to be true, it is not. Or you can say the rule of Universe, which is hope being non-increasing and despair being non-decreasing, has being changed. The two statements are equivalent). Madoka doesn't understand Homura consciously at the beginning, but her subconsciousness is transformed by her love without her realizing it(She could even feel the love but she doesn't know where it comes from. If her subconsciousness hasn't changed, why would she become more and more powerful? Since only the heart of a Puella magi determines her magical power). I don't know why you don't like the saying that Madoka became a witch because of her being corrupted, I think this is a good way to describe it. Madoka is not unable to see her own corruptive power, since in some timelines before she's being turned into a witch, she knew what is inside her is going to turn her into a witch.<br />
:::::I'm not saying Madoka is perfect at the beginning, but she's almost totally selfless, and she hasn't done anything selfless for selfish reasons until the moment she was turned into a witch--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 23:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You misunderstand, I am not saying that Sayaka's selflessness is fake, the problem with Sayaka is that she lacks self reflection. Sayaka only realized the meaning of being a magical girl in Episode 9, by then it was too late and she transformed into a witch. I believe what Sayaka did was noble, she was also stubborn and childish. In her heart she thought she was doing good, in reality all she did was hurt others, including Madoka. IF Sayaka had been more honest with her feelings and her motives, perhaps her wish would not have gone unfulfilled, but that's just assuming. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:Oh, wow. WOW. I know that I'm pretty late to the whole congratulatory party, Mutopis(?), but I gotta say, I REALLY loved your analysis of Madoka's character, which I completed this early morn. I think it helps settle, at least somewhat, one of the little enduring qualms about I've had the ending-- a qualm that I was actually thinking on earlier tonight-- even though I personally regard Madoka's as one of the absolute best anime endings I've seen. And that was just how drastically fast and life-altering Madoka's development seemed to be, from (literally and mentally) a 14 year old girl to a goddess-like figure with a wisdom that surely can't be comprehended by our living humanity. There wasn't a lot of breathing room for this development! It's not like how it was with Jesus Christ, who knew of his universal significance and the fate that awaited him and lived every day of his life as we know it in preparation for it. Why, it's not even like most stories centered on a Hero's Journey, where the hero knows that he or she matters in some big way or another for a majority or reasonably large portion of the story. BUT-- seeing you map out her characterization, her subtle demonstrations of kindness and maturity, and your reminder of the revelations/conversations Madoka's had in episode 6 and 11-- the "transformation" has definitely become easier to come to grips with; it doesn't seem as extremely sudden as it did before. (still fairly accelerated, though.) (Really, thanks for giving greater context to the dialogue/revelation in episode 11's content-- I have actually semi-purposefully limited my own exposure to both episodes 11 & 12, having only let myself go through whole episode viewings twice each despite having the whole series on VLC. It's probably some combination of not wanting to make myself cry more, not wanting the ending to lose meaning to me, and not wanting to come to grips that the story, until the third movie's contents are revealed, is really over and done.) [[User:Animerican-Redeemed|Animerican-Redeemed]] 09:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Kyubey and Utilitarianism ==<br />
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I am working on Kyubey's utilitarianism, this space is for a rough draft.<br />
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Urobuchi's view in energy conservation and connection to [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/SWITCH_2011-07_Vol.29_No.07 Kyubey's utilitarianism] [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Spa_Weekly!_2011-07-19 kyubey's belief] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 the overly romanticism of (good) reality (false perception) and good intentions with bad results of unhappiness] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 trade offs]. By the way I am reading Michael Sandel's book [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY "Justice"] and it is a good source of understanding philology. Will finish when I can. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I take it that the words below are your voice (and not an attempt at translation), right, Mutopis? I ask for purpose of response. ;) -- [[User:NS|preceding comment by NS]] 16:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I can confirm these are not Urobuchi's thoughts. --[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 16:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::This is a philosophical essay with my words, I use some comments and information from interviews and some material from the book "Justice" to interpret the anime series in a philosophical way. I am using the same method that I did with [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|Madoka and her motives]] to appreciate and get a better understanding. I want to see if Kyubey's utilitarianism is that simple or it is more complex than that, and why it seems justifiable (I am playing the devil's advocate), but more importantly to demonstrate that Kyubey is not evil, but just follows what he was created to do. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 20:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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*Guys, if you like to contribute or express an opinion about the essay, you are more than welcome. This is just a rough draft. I think I will be working on this for a while and I would like some opinions to make sure it remains consistent. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
*I hope no one has any problem with this essay being long. To tell you the truth I have no idea how long this will grow into. I am still working, rewriting, doing few changes here and there... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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** Thanks for your professional opinion. But there are too many changes a day, and that makes it troublesome to track changes. Isn't it better to write into a file in your computer first to reduce modification to the page? And I think it good to open a new topic talking about this. [[User:Yorkwoo|Yorkwoo]] 15:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Well, this looks interesting, but it seems a bit long for this talkpage. I think it might be better suited either as a subpage under your user namespace or as a proper article.--[[User:Knon|Knon]] 12:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I wanted to leave it here for those who wanted to understand the character of Kyubey. I dont know, an article page about philosophy?... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::A link to a new page would work just as well for those further interested in Kyubey. --[[User:Knon|Knon]] 04:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
* I did a lot of cleaning and polishing. If anyone wants to fix some spelling errors and such, you are more than welcome. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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===What is Utilitarianism?===<br />
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The Human Philosophy known as [[wikipedia:Utilitarianism|utilitarianism]] can be easily breakdown as the philosophy that pursues the maximization of happiness and the reduction of pain, or at least the creation of happiness that surpasses the overall total of pain. If Kyubey's brand of utilitarianism was that simple there would be no need for this essay. But utilitarianism, like all brands of philosophy, have taken several different developments and each one has a distinctive flavor that requires recognition. This will be an attempt to understand Kyubey's own brand of Utilitarianism.<br />
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According with [[Episode 9|Kyubey's mission]], he wants to save the universe by offsetting the depletion of the universe's energy (actually, Kyubey's statement is wrong, the correct assessment would be to stop [[Thermodynamics|the permanent loss of heat]], but who am I to question an advance alien race?). To accomplish this mission Kyubey's alien race has found the answer to the problem, the harvesting of human emotion. The process is simply, give a human magical powers to maximize their sense of hope, then reverse their hope to be turned into despair, during the process the despair energy would be released during the witchfication process thus repairing the damage done to the universe. Repeat the process countless of times until an appropriate energy quota per planet is reached. Sounds simple yet horrifying at the same time. For many this is an example of utilitarianism as its worst, many critics believe that Kyubey is justifying the exploration of little girls to save the universe. However, before we can accuse Kyubey of anything, it is essential to understand the moral nature, as well as Kyubey's reasoning behind it, to determine if the reasoning is justifiable. <br />
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===Kyubey and Bentham: Let us just enslave the human race!===<br />
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Invaders from another galaxy have decided that to save the universe, they must harvest energy to repair the damage already done to it. Their race is incapable of producing such energy by themselves, but thanks to their advance technology they have detected a source of energy that is perfect to solve their crisis. They have detected a "bizarre" mental behavior known as "emotions" capable of producing the required energy but it goes unprocessed and it is localized in another galaxy. The inhabitants of this alien galaxy are equally strange as primitive, not only do they suffer from this mental anomaly known as emotions, but they are being wasteful by not fully developing its potential. Such a waste of energy would be a crime if left unharvested. The alien race decides to invade this galaxy, enslave the inhabitants, and fully exploit its potential by maximizing the production of energy to meet their quota... or so it should be if this was Bentham's brand of utilitarianism but it is not (at least not completely). This is the first indicator that there is something odd about Kyubey's utilitarianism.<br />
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According with Jeremy Bentham, the goal of Utilitarianism is to produce as much happiness as possible, regardless of the means. But most importantly, all forms of happiness and all form of pains have their own equal moral value (no pleasure is better or highest than the other). Which means one form of happiness cannot be measured against another form of happiness; the same can be said about pain. It takes people's preferences as they are without passing judgement on its moral worth. It would be presumptuous to judge some pleasures to be inherently better than others. At the heart of it, Bentham's utilitarianism is nonjudgmental, to him all pleasures are equal. The assumption is that by measuring and calculating the values of pleasure and pains into a formula, one can reach an agreeable moral choice that would promote the general welfare and happiness of the populace. Let us consider the issue at hand, the whole universe is going to be destroyed and all Kyubey is doing is extinguishing a few souls to preserve the general welfare and happiness of countless galaxies. Perhaps one whole planet would be annihilated in the process, but what is a few billion souls when you take into account billions and billions of worlds that would be saved. Some would object that exploiting and even killing human beings is immoral and wrong. Yet, Kyubey would point out that humans do it all the time to one another, and not only that but that they even do it against other lower life forms for their own selfish benefit. After all, aren't humans exploiting animals and other organism to feed their populace, to attain monetary gain, and maintain their civilization? (be it on the agricultural sector or for medical research or a source of cheap labor). Why should humans be given a preferential treatment? After all, maybe there are more advance and worthier alien species out there that deserves to be saved more than humans, and maybe that makes humans the lower life form. On this cold and calculating equation to save the universe one has to arrive to one simple conclusion. If saving the universe by exploiting the emotions of humans has the same moral value than domesticating cattle to feed society, then it should be reasonable to say that Bentham would not object to enslaving the human race to achieve Kyubey's objective. While one would object that it would be morally wrong to exploit humans, one would also have to argue that it would be equally morally wrong to allow the universe to be destroyed. In the utilitarian equation it would be better for one whole planet to suffer than the whole universe to collapse. After all, saving the universe at the expense of the human race would create the greatest form of happiness for the rest of the galaxy. It would suck for the human race, but stopping the end of the universe trumps anything and everything. And if you don't like what Kyubey is doing then too bad, the end justifies the means and the universe would be saved, like it or not. <br />
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Yet, as stated before, that is not the case here, at least partially. Apparently, Kyubey and the aliens have some sort of moral code of their own that disallow them to force humans to enter into a contract (slavery) but they are also not allowed to deceive (false advertisement) or lie to them either (this is, of course, up to debate). However, they do not seem to have any moral qualms regarding the harvesting of human emotions to save the galaxy, just the slavery part.<br />
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One objection to utilitarianism is the attempt to measure pleasure and pain in a single scale while ignoring the qualitative experience of pleasure and pain. For many, certain forms of pleasure are not only higher but also worthier than others. It is believed that the pursue of a nobler pleasure would allow utilitarianism to the arrival of the greatest good. One could make an argument that saving the universe would create happiness but that the quality of happiness would suffer at the expense of perverse methods used for to attain it. Instead, one could say that Kyubey is trying to create the greatest form of happiness by using much more nobler (albeit questionable) methods to attain it. Rather than force the human race into submission and slavery, why not entice them into a fair contract? <br />
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===Kyubey and Mill: Humans are not Cattle.===<br />
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One of the biggest flaws regarding Benthram's utilitarianism is that it doesn't give adequate recognition to human dignity and individual liberty. In its attempt to measure, aggregate, and calculate happiness in a nonjudgmental manner (democratizing all forms of pleasures equally) it eliminates the qualitative and unique moral value of pleasure and pain. What Bentham has done is reduce everything of moral importance to a single scale. John Stuart Mill tries to recalculate utilitarianism into a more humane and less calculating doctrine (a more human-friendly form of utilitarianism that is less prone to enslaving the human race) to achieve a munch nobler form of Utilitarianism that tries to promote the greatest good while recognizing the liberty of individuals. On Mill's ideal version of utilitarianism, as long as no one gets hurt and no one imposes their beliefs on others, then everyone is allowed to exercise their own free will and liberty to achieve the correct moral value that results in the greatest good.<br />
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Let us go back to our scenario regarding an alien race looking for a solution to save our universe. The aliens realized that the human race are the perfect source of emotional energy to be harvested to repair the damage already done to the universe. Kyubey's aliens know that humans are still primitive and prone to their own mental illness known as emotions. Why not put them to better use by enslaving them and harvesting all their energy? At least they would suffer for a noble cause. According with Mill this would be wrong for two reasons. One, it violates the liberty and rights of the human race and its individuals, no one should force them to be used as resources, no matter the cause. Second, the issue at stake here is that the noble idea to save the universe gets tainted because of the process that it is used to achieve the result. Why is this important? It could be damaging for the promotion of general welfare and happiness. Bentham would just suggest that "the end justifies the means" as long as the highest form of happiness is achieved. But Mill's issue is that such inhumane methods may create the greatest form of happiness today, but in the long run it could promote reckless behavior with devastating results. And who is to say that the human race wont try to overthrow their alien overlords to free themselves? Mill is trying to use utilitarian principles as an attempt to promote progressive behavior (the pursue of not the highest pleasure but the noble ones as well). <br />
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Let us take for example the danger of creating a Superwitch like [[Kriemhild Gretchen]]. We saw the devastating results that took place in [[Episode 10]] in which the Earth was destroyed along with all life on the planet. According with Kyubey the creation of Kriemhild Gretchen allowed Kyubey to meet its energy quota in the short run. Of course, this [[wikipedia:slash-and-burn|slash-and-burn]] method was very profitable for Kyubey but what about the loss of future energy collection now that the Earth is dead? No problem, Kyubey states that there are other planets to exploit and using its cold logic the benefits outweighed the risks. Let us assume that what Kyubey is probably saying is that Gretchen produced more energy in a single day than a lifetime collection from the Earth. Perhaps this single offset prevented the future despair of millions of girls; isn't that a better outcome? To reduce the despair of future victims? Not to mention Incubators are now much closer on saving the universe. If this is correct, then losing the planet Earth was an acceptable loss to attain a large reserve of despair energy (perhaps the largest in history), according to Bentham. But Mill would disagree, what about the consequences? What about the fact that this act stains the noble cause to save the universe?<br />
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Kriemhild Gretchen is a Superwitch, but apparently at the moment she is no threat to the galaxy. She may be powerful enough to kill one planet but she still small and powerless enough to be no threat to the alien race or to the whole galaxy for that matter. But let us say overtime she could be, perhaps with time she would find a way to travel to other planets and start growing. Wont this become an issue in the future? And what about the reckless behavior that it promoted? Wont there be a danger that other Incubators from other planets would like try to recreate the same scenario to meet their quota? Soon, it would not just be one planet, but perhaps a few docents and even more that are suddenly destroyed by a Superwitch. And who is to say that these Superwitches wont find a way to merge their powers and create a Super Walpurgis Night powerful enough to destroy the whole universe? Should Incubators take such chance? That is what could happen in the worst case scenario. Of course, this a fabricated scenario of a possible future event. No one knows what the consequences would be like after the destruction of the Earth. It could promote the accelerated process to end the whole galaxy, instead of saving it, but it is just as likely that it doesn't. But that is one dangerous scenario regarding utilitarianism that Mill would like to avoid. <br />
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So, what is Mill's advice for Kyubey regarding utility? Well, not slaving the human race for one. Which in fact that is what they did. As stated by Kyubey, it is against the rules to force humans to become a mahou shoujo against their will. It is their individual choice to decide if they want to become one. This would seem to indicate that Kyubey respects the rights of individuals rather than violate them. After all, Kyubey can be found promoting the Mahou Shoujo lifestyle without forcing anyone to join in, as it is per rules. But what about the recognition for human dignity? Isn't it implied that by harvesting and using humans as resources are they no better than cattle to be consumed? But Kyubey has already an answer for it. Let us not forget that Kyubey recognizes humans to be unique creatures with a noble goal and purpose, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey knows that humans are not lower life forms like cattle just to be harvested and consumed to save the universe, regardless of how humans treat each other or other lower lifeforms. Kyubey states that while it would be for the greater good to harvest human emotions, regardless how Madoka feels personally, at least Kyubey and the alien race took the effort to recognize their uniqueness. Of course, that seems like a nice speech but it still requires substance and evidence behind his words. One clear evidence is that if Kyubey thought humans were cattle then why bother with allowing humans to roam free? Why the rules regarding the respect of personal liberty and choice? We must also remember that as a sign of recognition regarding the uniqueness of humans, they are allowed one single wish in the transaction. Kyubey could easily steal their human soul but they are forbidden to do so. Kyubey states that is one reason why humans are allowed such honor for accepting a contract. While it is true that Kyubey is using humans as a resource, they are neither slave nor cattle, no one is forcing them to make a contract to join in. Instead, the mahou shoujo are like employees and they are given the opportunity and honor to sacrifice their own lives for a noble goal. Isn't that what a mahou shoujo is all about? Girls of justice and noble sacrifice to triumph over evil? It is not slavery if a mahou shoujo gives consent and it is not exploitation if they accept a wish as a form of payment.<br />
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However, there is a certain flaw regarding this argument that Kyubey is practicing a brand of Mill's utilitarianism, and that is that we are assuming that is what Kyubey is doing. First of all, as anyone who has watched the show, would have noticed that Kyubey's actions and behavior have been deceptive so far (Kyubey would disagree). Not to mention the fact that Kyubey concealed the true nature of witches and mahou shoujo from starry-eye naive girls. And who can forget the mess that resulted for the Earth in [[Episode 10]], and Kyubey's disregard for the well being of the planet's inhabitants. Was that Kyubey being cold and cruel? Or was Kyubey just accepting the hard facts as it were, and was there really nothing that Kyubey could have done about it? To Mill, he would be appalled; after all the goal of utilitarianism is to achieve not just happiness but to make sure that the practice of utility would retain long term results. The destruction of the Earth may be good for the survival of the universe, but Mill would not consider that to be an acceptable loss for the greater good if the rights of billions of humans are violated in the process. What about the adverse effect that it would produce? Couldn't this establish a terrible precedent for future energy collection processes and encourage bad immoral behavior through out the galaxy.<br />
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Such practice and behavior brings into question Kyubey's moral value and its sensibility, if it was being measured against human values. There lies a fundamental problem, we know nothing regarding this alien culture and their definition of morality (for all we know their doctrine is based on emotionless cold logic), but for the sake of argument let us assume that they do share our same view regarding morality. Can it be said that Kyubey's utilitarianism tries to remain faithful to either Bentham or Mill? Is it a mixture of it? Or perhaps it is neither and both, perhaps it is an unique form of utilitarianism? Or maybe the problem lies with Mill's utilitarianism, in which we are expecting Kyubey to live up to its principle ideally. But before that, we have to ask ourselves. Are we judging Kyubey unfairly? <br />
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===Let's Make a Deal: The Meaning of Consent.===<br />
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Let us explore the process in which one accepts a contract. One day a furry magical creature approaches you with the promise of making you into a magical girl and in exchange you get one wish. It sounds like a great bargain but you wonder if there is a trick to it. Of course, before you can accept the deal, the magical creature is obligated to disclose to you the dangers of becoming a magical girl. It informs you that you will be fighting witches, but you will be granted magical powers to defeat them. Sounds fair, right? What Kyubey is doing is offering you a product that sounds too good to be true, the creature discloses the terms of conditions (fight witches to gain more magic and to keep yourself alive) in exchange for the opportunity to attain any wish that you want (within the limits of karmatic energy availability). The process sounds simple and you do not suspect anything. After all, it seems that you are being recruited to hunt down evil Witches who are eating innocent humans, it sounds like a noble cause. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity that may never come up again (unless you are one of those girls who Kyubey decides to pester every opportunity to make a contract). You are swoon and tempted by the opportunity that you decide to accept the contract, perhaps you feel desperate enough to want your wish that you decide it is better than nothing. Then somehow you later learn that what you signed into was not what you expected, you are horrified to learn the truth behind the Puella Magi System that you want a way out to avoid your fate into becoming a Witch. But Kyubey refuses to do anything to reverse the process and tells you that you are under contractual obligation to fulfill your part of the bargain. It informs you that you are under no obligation to hunt down witches if you want, as it will accelerate the transformation process if you keep using your magic for anything else, but the process itself cannot be stopped. You accuse Kyubey of lying and the furry creature would refute your accusation by saying that it never lied and that you never ask for more details of what being a magical girl entails (in other words, you never read the fine print). But most importantly, Kyubey would maintain that since you consented to become a magical girl, you also consented with the terms and conditions of the contract that came with it: Fight witches until the moment of metamorphosis, in which the despair energy would be collected to repair the universe. Once a witch you would be freed from your contractual obligation and live the rest of your life as a witch until you are killed by another magical girl (of course, Kyubey wouldn't say it outright in the beginning. If Kyubey was a lawyer he would probably codified it in legalize to avoid annoying questions). But the point is clear, not only you gave consent to become a witch, but you failed to properly educate yourself with the consequences of becoming a Witch. In the end, the failure lies with you. Perhaps Kyubey should wear a [[wikipedia:Caveat_emptor|''"Caveat Emptor"'']] sign around his neck to warn would-be magical girls, but that would undermine Kyubey's purpose and Kyubey would declare that that would be unfair for the universe, as it would guarantee the destruction of all life, along with planet Earth in the near or far future.<br />
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Let us analyze what went wrong and determine who truly is at fault. First of all, what is consent? And once we learn the meaning of it. Does it meet the requirements to be declared consensual? Or did any girl who consented did not truly consented because it did not meet the requirements for it? <br />
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Consent refers to the provision of approval, particularly and especially after thoughtful consideration. To be considered a consent, means that the individuals gives acceptance to an agreement after making an inform decision. However, those who believe that Kyubey is deceitful would point out that any girls' consent is tainted because their informed decision lacked the adequate information to make a rational decision. Some would even go so far as to say that Kyubey used coercion to attain their consent during questionable situations. Therefore, critics would say it fails to meet the requirements for consent. If we consider Kyubey's practice to be deceitful and with the added element of coercion into it, it does bring into question wherever Kyubey's actions are valid and legal (if you could somehow take an alien to court to enforce Earth/national laws. But let us say that you can for the sake of argument). <br />
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First, the issue of coercion. One great example that we can use is [[Tomoe Mami]]'s case. Mami is a victim of a car crash accident (let us say for convenience that there is no foul play in part of Kyubey) and she is dying. The ambulance is on its way but it wont make it on time and Mami's body is already failing. Her body is mere minutes away from death and nothing can be done for her. Then suddenly, Kyubey appears and tells her that if she would like to make a contract. Kyubey informs Mami that it would grant her one wish and she would be fighting witches for the rest of her life. And she can make any wish she wants. This is a classic example of obtaining consent during duress. Mami has two choices to make, either accept Kyubey's contract and become a mahou shoujo or die. So she made her wish, she wished she could live (actually we dont know the actual wording of the wish, but it is assumed it had something to do with saving her life). Critics would say that Kyubey was being manipulative and unfair, that Mami's consent was tainted. The only way that Mami's consent would be valid, would be if Kyubey had approached Mami before the accident or if Kyubey had saved Mami's life first then ask her if she would like to make a contract with Kyubey. <br />
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I would like to point out certain issues on this case. In accordance with utilitarianism (in which Mami chose the pleasure of living over the pain of dying), Mami benefited from Kyubey's contract and any complains she may have against Kyubey is invalid. After all, Mami wanted to not die and Kyubey wanted to get a contract from Mami. Both of them had something that the other wanted and in the exchange they both got it. Under that rationality it would be hardly unfair. Second, even if one considers Mami's consent to be tainted or coerced, their complain is invalid. After all, the idea of coercion would mean that someone's rights was violated. Unless someone can find evidence that Kyubey staged the accident, then maybe they would have a point, but it is not. There is also the issue that Kyubey obtained Mami's consent while dying. Critics like to point out that Kyubey should have saved Mami first, instead it was taking advantage of the situation. We have to remember, in the case of Kyubey we do not know what kind of magical powers Kyubey itself can use or do, Kyubey is simply part of the process to create and grant wishes. It's like saying "Why Kyubey cant wish itself to repair the universe?" Because it cant. For all that we know, approaching Mami with a contract was Kyubey's way of helping her. Let us assume that this is correct (a big assumption, I know) and Kyubey is a powerful yet powerless creature unless a wish is made. If this is correct, then there is nothing Kyubey could have done by itself other than grant wishes. If Kyubey is guilty of anything, is perhaps of taking advantage of a situation. Of course, critics would continue to question the issue of validity within Mami's consent, and whatever she was on her right mind to make such decision. But the fact remains that, regardless of the situation, Mami still gave consent to save her life and she benefited from her choice. Kyubey would like to point out that it doesn't matter in which situation Kyubey got her consent, the fact remains that in Mami's case if it hadn't approached her she would be dead, instead she got to live longer (just to be killed by a [[Charlotte|cheese eating Witch]]). If anything, Mami benefited the most from the situation (to Kyubey's point of view). And since a deal is a deal, it is hardly unfair as long as both party benefited. I would agree that the issue regarding consent in Mami's case is a bit murky and difficult to determine, because of the lack of proper information. However, since we are trying to determine a conclusion with the given information, this would be my own impression. According with Bentham, the issue regarding consent doesn't matter since an individual's right don't matter on the utilitarian equation, and since both parties benefited at the time, the deal was hardly unfair. For Mill, since Mami got to live longer and she avoided the pain of death, she got the greatest good in return. While it is true that the issue of consent is at the heart of the question, we have to assume that in Mill's equation, the desire to live and the want for self-preservation would outweigh her individual's right. Mill would agree that Mami's liberty must be preserved on the utilitarian equation, but when you are weighting the two rights of the same individual, which side has the greater value? On one side it is Mami's right to life, on the other it is Mami's right to be allowed to consent free of pressure, deception, and duress. But let us be clear, Kyubey did not create the situation that Mami was in, and also there was the issue of time. Given what was occurring, there is not enough evidence to find culpability with Kyubey at the moment of the accident. And since Mami's life was at risk, her right to life takes precedent. And Mill would also like to remind us that no one got hurt during the deal (it did more than that, it prevented someone from dying). The issue of Mami's right being violated is moot since Mami's rights were preserved by saving her life so she could continue to exercise those same rights. According to Mill, actions and consequences aren't the only issue, an individual's character also matters. If Mami were to die she would be deprived to exercise her rights and to develop her character as an individual. And what would be the worst precedent from this quandary? Kyubey appearing to every girl close to death and giving them the chance to save their own lives? Wouldn't that create the greatest happiness? And what if every girl Kyubey saves from death are like Mami, or even better? Wouldn't that be not just good for society but even better? (let us assume that Kyubey saves more girls like Mami than Kyouko on this contingent assumption). Mill would agree that protecting Mami's right is important for utility to preserve the general welfare. However, he would also agree that since the rights violated were inconsequential to society (and for Mami) and instead it promoted the greatest good with harm to no one, then it has served its purpose to serve the greatest good.<br />
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Let us set aside Mami's case for now and let us examine the accusation of Kyubey's deception. Critics and detractors have objected to Kyubey's practices on attaining victims for his scam and they have accused Kyubey of lying to get its goal. As always, Kyubey would disagree with them. I don't have to tell you what Bentham's side would be regarding on lying, since he wouldn't see a problem with this as long as Kyubey's action maximizes happiness (eg: save the universe). But what about on Mill's side of utilitarianism? What would be Mill's view on lying be? <br />
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===I cannot tell a lie, you will fail Kyoko.===<br />
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Let us picture this scenario. Kyubey is chasing down Madoka and it is seeking her location, it arrives to Homura's residency but before Homura gets to fill that furry alien with bullets, Kyubey asks if Homura has seen Madoka. Prior to Kyubey's arrival, Madoka has sought refuge within Homura's home and she is hiding. On this situation, Mill would say that lying is ok because it serves to the greater good, to protect a girl from Kyubey. To Mill, lying is ok as long as it saves lives and serves its purpose to create happiness. While lying is deceitful, it has some good uses. And as long as the lie harms no one, then there shouldn't be any problem. But what about when Kyubey uses lying to save the universe? Wouldn't that also be for the greatest good? No, it wouldn't be. Kyubey would have violated the liberty of individual girls by forcing them into contracts under false pretense, and by using falsehood and deception, Kyubey has tainted the utility and quality of the greater good. The problem with this assumption, is that it believes that Kyubey would lie, cheat, and steal to attain his goal when in facts it is the opposite. Let us first try to understand Kyubey's "deception" and determine if there is some ground for such accusation.<br />
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Observers would notice three things about Kyubey. Whenever it seeks a contract it would only give a basic information and minimal detail regarding what the job entails; when someone ask a question that could unravel the true nature of the Puella Magi System, Kyubey would try to give a satisfactory answer that doesn't divulge too much information; and sometimes when someone wants an honest answer from Kyubey, it would divulge answers that could be interpreted differently that, strictly speaking, could be misleading ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqzW0eHzDSQ&feature=relmfu a misleading truth]). The problem here is that none of this proves that Kyubey has ever lied. It is true that Kyubey has omitted information whenever it suited its purpose, it is also true that Kyubey divulged information with the prospect of influencing events to his favor, and that it tried to hide facts by being vague or evasive without being false. But, was Kyubey a liar? Was Kyubey maliciously deceiving girls for his advantage? In other words, there is a difference between being purposely deceitful and another is using misleading truths (without being false or lying) in the hope that it would be incorrectly interpreted on Kyubey's favor. <br />
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Let us start with Sayaka as an example. In [[Episode 2]], Sayaka asks Kyubey what are Witches and how are they any different from mahou shoujo. Kyubey's response was simple yet clever, if a mahou shoujo is born from wishes then witches are born from curses. So a mahou shoujo spreads hope while a Witch spreads despair. Nowhere in this sentence is Kyubey lying, technically Kyubey is not only telling the truth but it briefly gives a glimpse to the Puella Magi System. Of course, you have to read between the lines and be a bit clever to realize it but to anyone unfamiliar with the system, they wouldn't even give much of a second thought. At that moment if Sayaka had pressed further the issue, who knows how far could Kyubey could have avoided telling the whole truth. But sadly, Sayaka didn't. So in effect, as long as they fail to ask the right questions, it is not Kyubey's fault.<br />
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Let us look to another example regarding Kyubey's clever way to influence a situation by telling a misleading (but carefully prepared) truth. In [[Episode 9]], Kyoko asks Kyubey if there is a way to get Sayaka's Soul Gem back. Kyubey responds that it doesn't know of any known method. We all know that Kyubey is using a careful evasion not to divulge its opinion, but at the same time tries to divulge the truth. Kyoko not wanting to give up asks Kyubey if are there things that even Kyubey doesnt know. Kyubey replies that it doesn't know everything that there is to know. It acknowledges that the nature of magic defies logic and that it wouldn't be surprising if something absurd did came out of it (let us not forget, Kyubey makes the impossible possible). Kyoko takes Kyubey's response as acknowledging that there is a possibility for her hopes. However, that is a misleading truth. Kyubey does acknowledge that magic defies logic, that what Kyoko would try to attempt has never been tried before. But Kyubey also knows that what Kyoko is suggesting is impossible and would never succeed as it "defies logic"; and even if for some absurd miracle something did happen, the odds of it are astronomical. Of course, Kyubey doesn't tell her that directly, instead it uses misleading truths and facts to confuse Kyoko so she would reach to the wrong conclusion. If you read between the lines, Kyubey is saying that what Kyoko is attempting is foolish and impossible, but Kyubey also adds that magic belongs to the realm of the impossible and that its nature is not well understood (but I am certain that Kyubey is betting that logic would prevail). Whatever conclusion Kyoko ever arrives to, it is not Kyubey's fault. Since Kyubey would respond that it has only given her the information that she needed to reach to the right conclusion. If Kyoko misinterpreted Kyubey's information and instead got the wrong impression, then the fault lies with Kyoko. After all, Kyubey told her the truth and tries to neither encourage nor discourage Kyoko on her wrong conclusion. Kyubey does admit that it usually stops a pointless sacrifice (don't get the wrong idea, Kyubey just doesn't like to lose girls too early before their emotions can be harvested) but in this case it didn't stop her. According to Kyubey, losing Kyoko has a great advantage to further utility. Now, critics would point out that Kyubey killed Kyoko by not discouraging her to stop her foolish plan. It is true, Kyubey did not tried to stop her, instead it just allowed the situation to unfold itself. But here is what it gets tricky, according to Mill people have the freedom to do whatever they want as long as they are not hurting others ''"Government may not interfere with individual liberty in order to protect a person from himself, or to impose the majority's beliefs about how best to live"''("Justice", pg. 49). In essence, Kyubey was allowing Kyoko to exercise her right to recklessly endanger herself. Kyubey knows well the dangers ahead for Kyoko, but since it is Kyoko's right to get herself killed, why interfere? After all, Kyoko knows very well how dangerous it is to meddle with a Witch, she is a veteran mahou shoujo, so she already knows the risks already. If Kyoko wanted to risk her life for an impossible task, then that was her right and her freedom to do so. But let us say hypothetically, what if Kyoko knew what Kyuey was thinking and she still decided to take a gamble? What if Kyoko knew Kyubey was using misleading truths to get rid of her? Critics would say that Kyubey should had at least warn her and told her the truth of the matter. After all, Kyoko is stubborn and would do whatever she wants, no matter the objections. Here is what Mill's utility tell us. First of all, Kyubey has the right and liberty to discard and tell any information in any way it wants it to be, Kyubey can be directly honest and get to the point or deliver the truth in such a way that it could be misinterpreted (as long as Kyubey's words are truthful). Kyubey would also add that it did warn Kyoko on its own way, Kyubey told her that what Kyoko was attempting has never been done in the past and in Kyubey's mind that was an enough warning. What Kyoko does after that is still Kyoko's responsibility. In the end, the fact remains that Kyubey is not attempting to tell a lie but it is attempting to tell the truth in a way that makes it the listeners responsibility to discern the correct conclusion. To force Kyubey to tell Kyoko the whole truth would be a violation of Kyubey's liberty. Also, Kyubey is not harming Kyoko by not telling her the directly the truth. Instead, it is Kyoko who does the harming by not correctly deciphering Kyubey's information. Kyubey would suggest that nowhere at any time it harmed Kyoko, it was in fact [[Oktavia]] who did most of the harming, because Kyoko was too dumb to realize that what she was attempting to do was impossible, and even more dumber for not reading between the lines what Kyubey was telling her. In Kyubey's words, it would say that it never lied; it would acknowledge that it withhold information, but that was because they never asked further; and if anyone ever felt deceived, it is their own fault for misunderstanding Kyubey's words (words that were always truthful). For those who say that Kyubey is deceptive, they are correct but for a different reason that critics would like to believe. Kyubey was hoping its words would be misinterpreted (I don't doubt that was its goal) while still honoring the values of honesty and veracity. That's what frustrates Kyubey's critics. It is true that Kyube is hoping to mislead its victims. But at the same time, Kyubey is honoring the moral laws within the boundaries by hoping that the victims would believe the truth that it's saying and the fact that it's communicating. If the victims misunderstood it's words and the message that Kyubey is communicating, it is not Kyubey's fault. And for that reason one can say that Kyubey is hoping to mislead while at the same time honoring the moral laws without telling a lie. Yes, Kyubey is deceptive but he/she is not a liar.<ref>I would like to make it clear that this is a [[wikipedia:Categorical_imperative|categorical imperative]] from a Kantian philosophy regarding "telling a lie", it is defined as a way of evaluating motivations for action (See, [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|"Madoka and Minding her Motive"]]). Utilitarianism is considered a [[wikipedia:Consequentialism|consequentialism]], meaning that the moral worth of an action is determined by its resulting outcome. These two bands of philosophies are completely different from each other. But I thought Kant's explanation was much more beautiful and elegant regarding the difference between telling a lie and using a "misleading truth". If Kyubey was as smart as a [[wikipedia:Vulcan_(Star_Trek)|logical Vulcan]], I believe it would use the Kantian method of telling the truth.</ref><br />
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And before anyone objects by saying that Kyubey never warned the girls that becoming a mahou shoujo means getting your soul ripped from your body, we have to take a look back at [[Episode 2]]. When Mami was giving her introductions to Madoka and Sayaka, Kyubey informed the girls that it can grant any wish they want, but that the price of that wish is the production of the Soul Gem and fighting Witches. Let us disregard the obvious fact that the word ''"Soul"'' is in the name of the magical jewelry; if you read between the lines, Kyubey is telling the girls (in its subtle way) that by granting them one wish it would create a Soul Gem as its price for it. Kyubey may not spell it directly, but even with this subtle information, anyone smart enough would be able to conclude that someone's soul would be ripped to create that magical gem (at least on Kyubey's mind). In other words, Kyubey did warn and informed the girls about how Soul Gems are created, they were just not clever enough to decipher that information. <br />
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Before we end this section I would like to address a criticism regarding an issue that none of the girls who contracted by Kyubey wished to become Witches. It is true that no mahou shoujo wants to become a witch. But let us examine Kyubey's language when it asks many of those girls if they would like to make a contract. When Kyubey asks Madoka if she would like to become a mahou shoujo, what Kyubey is actually asking is if Madoka would like to stop being human. Remember, what is a mahou shoujo? They are girls who can use magic, their healing abilities and strengths are faster and superior to humans, and it is suspected if their bodies were damaged they could be replaced (this is the closest to immortality they would ever get). Now, what is to be human? It is certain it is none of what I stated previously. Humans can't do magic, they dont heal fast, and they dont have replacing body parts when they are mangled horribly. When Kyoko was angry and told Kyubey that it changed them into zombies. Kyubey's answered that it was the only way that they could become a mahou shoujo, that there would be no other way to achieve the same such results or be able to use magic effectively. For safety and efficiency reasons their souls are turn into soul gems so a mahou shoujo can do their job more effectively, making them invincible and giving them better odds to survive a battle against a Witch. Isn't that nice from Kyubey? After all, it is looking after the best interest of the girls. It would be just as crueler to send weak human girls to fight against witches, in a way the Soul Gem process is much more "humane". Kyubey would also explain that the process of becoming a Witch is just an unfortunate effect of the mahou shoujo process. If they dont want to become Witches all they have to do is not taint their souls too much. Yet, never the least, the girls accepted the risk by making a contract and becoming a mahou shoujo. And with that comes the risks of the job. <br />
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===Bentham, the true monster. Mill, impractical idealism.===<br />
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After studying and reviewing the information, we can conclude without a doubt that Kyubey faithfully follows a Utilitarian philosophy. But it is also clear to mention that Kyubey's utilitarianism seems to be a mixture blend of Bentham's and Mill's thinking. Sometimes Kyubey would swing to one formula of utility and then swing back when it is convenient to do so. But it remains mostly on Mill's side most of the time, with the exception of when the whole planet is devastated. One could presume to suggest that Kyubey's thinking is not "The End Justifies the Means" as much as "Using Mill's Means to attain Bentham's End". Let me be the first say that Kyubey's Utilitarianism shares some similar values to Bentham and Mill. However, because Kyubey doesn't follow one principle of utility but a different version, we have to then assume that it is neither and both for two reasons. First, Kyubey is restrained by the rules that the alien race has laid on him. If Kyubey believed Bentham's utility wholly, it would disregard their rules and force Madoka into a contract regardless of her will or the rules itself. Instead, Kyubey tries to remain within the parameters and at the same time achieve the goals given to it. Second, if Kyubey had any respect for Mill's notion of Utilitarianism, then Kyubey has failed. Mill ideal version of utility is that with time the values of Utilitarianism would create progressive thinking and moral decisions based on utility that would allow the delivery of the greatest good. If Kyubey tried to follow Mill's ideal version of Utility, then he would be the less productive Incubator in the whole Universe; at that rate the end of the universe would be guaranteed. But it isn't so much as Kyubey failed Mill as Mill failed Kyubey. The problem with Mill's thinking is that it tries to maintain the principles of utility and the moral values of individual liberty at the same time. Critics have blasted Mill's utility as being naive and contradictory to Utilitarianism, some would suggest that Mill's formula violates the principle of Utility all together. Mill has proven that it can humanize utilitarianism when it adds a moral ideal of human dignity into the formula, but those ideals are independent of utility itself. Mill's formula would never achieve the greatest good that reflects the highest virtue of human value as long as it tries to maintain it within the realm of utility.<br />
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Since Kyubey is from a very advance alien race, I have to assume Kyubey's utility shares similarities to our own understanding of Utility, but at the same time it is also unique because it transcends Bentham's and Mill's thinking, thus making it into a third form of Utilitarian thinking that shares some of their values but for a different end than Bentham or Mill would conclude. This is, of course, speculation.<br />
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It is very clear that many critics and detractors have accused Kyubey of being evil, a liar, and a manipulator for good measure. But I would like to point out that they have failed to understand Kyubey and his own way of thinking to demonstrate why Kyubey is wrong. Their views have been mostly on the human side of the issue. Failing to see it from Kyubey's perspective to understand Kyubey. We have to remember that it is not easy to judge an alien race that we know little about, not even their moral values, but for the sake of argument we have to at least try. According to Homura, she doesn't think Kyubey thinks itself to be evil or cruel, she believes Kyubey just have a different perspective regarding morality so it fails to understand human values. However, that doesn't mean Homura trust Kyubey or believes she can reason with it. But let us be clear, by understanding Kyubey's utilitarianism I am not trying to justify its action. Instead, I am trying to comprehend Kyubey's point of view and perspective. What I have learned from Kyubey's point of view is that the issues regarding if Kyubey is evil or not is moot. What we should be concerned is the way Kyubey sees the world, which is much more disturbing and terrifying, and the worst part is that people who think the same way as Kyubey don't think that they are evil either or that they are doing anything wrong. <br />
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===Kyubey: CEO of Entropy, INC.===<br />
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If I had to describe Kyubey from any organism from our world, I would say that no organism exist that is similar to Kyubey. The closest we have is a human being. But even at that it would fail to describe Kyubey accurately, because Kyubey shares many differences than similarities with humans. Just like humans, Kyubey demonstrates high intelligence and faculties similar to humans, but unlike humans it lacks emotions; it cannot die but instead spawn new bodies; and is able to grant abilities that itself cannot exercise or posses, humans could only dream of having such abilities.<br />
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So instead, rather than imagine Kyubey from any known living organism I would like to think Kyubey is similar to a non-living entity that is not just similar to Kyubey, but it paints a perfect picture of what Kyubey is. This non-living entity seems to follow Kyubey's philosophy regarding utilitarianism that is neither Bentham's or Mill's version. It uses Mill's means to attain Bentham's ends. Like Kyubey, it also has a goal to maximize utility for its own advantage. <br />
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Let us remember, an alien race created an artificial entity that is highly intelligent with no emotions, these aliens bestowed upon Kyubey certain abilities and limitations but also parameters known as "rules". Kyubey is assigned with a very simple mission and duty: follow the rules stated by the alien race (it cannot force humans into a contract. It also means it cannot also lie but it is allowed the flexibility to limit his information as long as it is truthful), maximize the collection of energy to repair the universe without violating the given parameters, and protect the girls until they reach to their maximum potential. Now, let us imagine that Kyubey is not an artificial organism created by an alien race, let us think of Kyubey as a Corporation created by a group of business people. "Kyubey", as the company is known, has a business mandate: follow the national and international laws regarding trade and finances set up by an entity known as "the government". "Kyubey" as a company is not allowed to exercise illegal activities, but the laws are flexible and deregulated enough to allow for a company to pursue interests that would benefit a free market society in a very competitive enviroment, if it wishes to survive it would take advantage of the loosened rules (in other words, as long as it is withing the boundaries of the law and it is not illegal, the company is protected from liability); and "Kyubey" must maximize company profits in order to not only benefit shareholders but to also avoid a bankruptcy or being taken over by the competition. "Kyubey" believes its existence is essential for the survival of the market/financial economy (so think of the universe as a large financial consortium). Without Corporations there is no free market or capitalism, and without Incubators you can say goodbye to the universe. <br />
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I am certain some of you would think that I am overreaching with my thinking but let us just assume that my assertion is possible for the moment. One day "Kyubey" is taken to court and it stands accused of several crimes. The proceedings state that the company has violated several laws and disregarded the rights of their employees. The first criminal accusation would be false advertisement and failure to disclose information. Sayaka, the accuser, would declare that she would have never made a contract if she had known that her soul would be ripped from her body and that she would become a witch. As stated before, what Sayaka calls false advertisement, Kyubey would defend himself by stating that Sayaka failed to "read between the lines" and if she didn't understand the conditions of the contract she should have contacted a lawyer of her own. The other issue regarding becoming a Witch, "Kyubey" would explain that Sayaka had more than enough information to make an educated decision regarding the risks of the job. According with the company, Sayaka knew the risks of becoming a mahou shoujo, what happens after the facts (or in this case, death) bears no consequence, nor does it make any difference regarding occupational hazard and safety (in other words, knowing that Sayaka would become a Witch during her period of employment would not have prevented her from becoming one). Not to mention it would be reckless endangerment to send weak little girls against witches; so the company has a policy regarding safety and health to protect their employees against hazards, ergo they rip their souls to make soul gems to minimize pain and increase their magical powers. What kind of employee sues a company for trying to reduce occupational hazards? Isn't Sayaka being ungrateful? <br />
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And regarding Sayaka's objection to her "uninformed" consent. As an example, let us say that "Kyubey" is a weapons manufacturing company and they employed Sayaka to create missiles. Sayaka knows what missiles are and that they are used during military campaigns. However, Sayaka believes that the missiles would only be used to kill evil people. One day she learns that one of the missiles she helped to construct was used to blow up a building that was suspected to house enemy combatants but instead it killed innocent civilians. While it is true that "Kyubey" sold the missile to the military for the purpose of warfare. There is no way that the company could have predicted that it would be used to cause innocent casualties; the company is aware of the possibility of such scenario. But we have to remember that this future event or circumstance is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty. According to "Kyubey", becoming a witch is not a certaintity but just a possible outcome. And in any case, "Witchification" is no different than death. So knowing or not knowing, for the sake of safety and health on Sayaka's part, makes no difference. The job still comes with the same risks, anyway. Nothing has changed.<br />
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But "Kyubey" would state that divulging sensitive information regarding "company secrets" would be detrimental for company morale. In fact, by not divulging sensitive information that would be a hindrance for employees to maximize their potentials, the company and employees like Sayaka would be able to achieve their potential without any unnecessary distractions. By knowing sensitive information, employees like Sayaka would lose focus and increase the potential of creating a hostile environment. <br />
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As one final act, "Kyubey" would state that as a company it has a responsibility to their shareholders by maximizing its profits. People may question a company's policy and its methods of obtaining profits, but as long as no legal laws have been broken then no crime has been committed. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" would state that as a company they are obligated to make no exceptions nor reverse their company policy just because a mahou shoujo feels like what they are doing is wrong. After all, "Kyubey" is a company not a charity. It is true that Kyubey does provide an exchange for products and services, so it is not "free", there is a price for it. If Kyubey were to grant wishes for free (without collecting souls or despair energy), not only there would be a quick depletion of energy, but their company would go bankrupt. The reason Kyubey collects souls is that they need them to create more despair energy, the more despair energy Kyubey creates, the safer the universe becomes. And the more energy Kyubey has on reserve, the more energy they can use to be reinvested to hire new and more mahou shoujo. So, Kyubey as an industry does not only provide products and services, but as a company they are also protecting the universe and reinvesting their energy to provide wishes and employment to more girls. It is true that "Kyubey" is polluting their cities with curses, familiars, and witches that are detrimental to humans. But can anyone point out to any company that has never produced toxic waste (or even just normal waste) during its lifetime? And what about the benefits that many girls have obtainted? Girls like Mami were given a second life, otherwise she would be dead. Kyouko was able to avoid destitution and hunger thanks to her wish. And even Sayaka was able to get the opportunity to heal a friend. Can anyone complain that Kyubey's services are not essential to the community and society? Kyubey as a company has saved lives, provided food and housing opportunity for the destitute, and healed incurable diseases and physical disabilities; making society and the human race more productive, safer from [[wikipedia:Heat_death_of_the_universe|death heat]], and better in the long run. <br />
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And as a business, the company has an obligation to be financially sound. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" is an important member of the community. After all, society and the whole human race have profited from Kyubey's products, and services. Kyubey's presence on Earth is essential for human progress. Without Kyubey's interference, humanity would never have achieved and advanced in the areas of art, culture, history, medicine, philosophy, science, technology, and other progresses. In fact, without Kyubey, humans would still be naked and living in caves. Before anyone can accuse the company of being selfish and greedy, perhaps humanity should asks themselves if they are in any better position to be self-righteous against the company after benefiting from so much? Specially, since all of human progress is thanks to the sacrifice and despair of innocent little girls.<br />
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===Why is Kyubey wrong.===<br />
<blockquote>''"If you ever feel like dying for this universe, just call us."'' ~ Kyubey, [[Episode 9]].</blockquote><br />
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I would like to add one last comparison regarding Kyubey as a corporation and the philosophy of utility. As I have stated before, Kyubey used Mill's means to attain Bentham's end. What I mean is that a Corporation would try to stay within the boundaries of the law to maximize its profit and size, but it would also use Kyubey's method to eliminate its competition and achieve Bentham's end, which would be either be the elimination of all competition or achieving a total monopoly on the market. After all, the purpose of a company is to prolong its existence and to promote the idea that without them there is no free market. Just like Kyubey wants to prolong the existence of the universe and without Incubators there is no one to stop the end of the universe. But as we have observed, Kyubey's approach and solution is quite unnerving. Specially when we are asked to accept the suffering of little girls as a form of payment to enjoy the fruits of past labors and sufferings. But I would like to add one last thought. One of the reasons that utilitarianism has it critics is its attempt to use market values to achieve a noble and moral choice. This is not just reserved only to corporations; [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost%E2%80%93benefit_analysis government entities] and individuals attempt to do the same everyday[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2Rq4HJBxw&feature=relmfu]. Not only does utilitarianism fails in its noble and moral goal, but during the process we have probably noticed that humanity and the human soul has been reduced as a form of currency. Think about it, Kyubey would not accept no other form of payment but a human soul, something that it is considered to be sacred and holy (depending on your beliefs). Now suddenly, this alien creature decides that humans souls are no different than commodities to be traded. This utilitarian attempt to reduce all and everything as a commodity, including a human soul and the right of sale of it, is a degradation of our humanity that is being packaged as goods. It loses its moral value and dignity in the marketing process.<ref>''"Certain modes of valuation are appropriate to certain goods and practices. In the case of commodities, such as cars and toasters, the proper way of valuing them is to use them, or to make them and sell them for profit. But it's a mistake to treat all things as if they were commodities. It would be wrong, for example, to treat human beings as commodities, mere things to be bought and sold. That's because human beings are persons worthy of respect, not objects to be used. Respect and use are two different modes of valuation."'' Michael Sandel, "Justice" (pg 96).</ref> This causes us to rethink what makes us human and the values we hold as a civilized society. The reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is not that it is evil; the reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is what it represents. If a human soul can be reduced as a mere currency, or resource, or commodity ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IojqOMWTgv8&feature=related or a battery]), and we are willing to emulate Kyubey's methods and values, then we as humans have failed to realized and recognized our own dignity and value within ourselves. Because Kyubey may be an alien from a different world, but its values are no different from ours once we close examine it.<br />
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===Closing===<br />
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I would like to reiterate that this is my personal interpretation and opinion regarding Kyubey's utilitarianism and its moral values. This is not an attempt to put words on the creators of the anime series but an attempt to grasp a better understanding of it. I have used resources like the anime series, interviews, and Michael Sandel's book "Justice" to attain a better comprehension and analysis of the Kyubey character. The views of this essay are my own --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 11:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
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<b>Notes:</b><br />
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===In Opposition===<br />
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The above is well written, but suffers a single, but overwhelming, flaw. As I'm not a philosopher, please bear with me, but I believe my words hold merit. The main flaw of the above article is simple: Kyubey, himself, claims to not feel emotions, and is purely logical. However, Utilitarianism is the maximisation of happiness, and the minimisation of grief, which is the opposite of Kyubey's nature - he lacks the ability to feel either happiness or grief, and as such, does not care about it whatsoever. However, he does desire to live, the most basic of all instincts. As a being that possesses only logic and the desire to survive, all of it's efforts are devoted to a logical way of living as long as physically possible. Logically, this survival would be given the priority of the survival of it's own species, survival of itself, survival of those of it's own species, the survival of prey species, and, finally, the survival of strategically advantageous (i.e., allied) species. <br />
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If it's environment is reaching a physical limit to support it's existence, it acts to counter this, whether by increasing it's environment's parameters or limiting those factors acting against it. In the case of a population crisis, this would be finding more suitable ground in which to survive, or culling off competitor species, or, in an extreme case, members of it's own species. Taken to the most extreme level, that the universe is going to end eventually, even if that event is several hundred times further in the future than it's own species has lived thus far, then action must be taken to prevent or limit this collapse, so long as no more pressing matters exist. Regardless of the actual need to lengthen the life span of the universe, this is what an otherwise unoccupied, emotionless, logical species would do, and it is where the plot of the series is derived. On a similar extrapolation, Kyubey's race have conquered personal death - they can move themselves into a spare body, should they die. That, too, is an example of their attempt to control death on any level possible for them.<br />
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As a logical species, Kyubey chooses actions based on mathematics. The Probability of something happening, and the Effort needed to achieve it - that is, the result of Work and Time - and the ultimate result are the core components of it's decisions. As Kyubey lacks emotions, specifically, shame and guilt, it sees no need to gain consent if it does not need it. That Kyubey does attempt to gain consent suggests that either it does need it, or that gaining consent is easier than utilising brute force upon the issue - as it is their soul, they may respond in a negative manner by pure subconscious instinct, though this is entirely speculation. However, Kyubey does not put excessive effort into making certain that it's contractors are aware of the situation that they are being put into. Kyubey is perfectly aware that it is supplying minimalist information. Logically, Sayaka or Madoka or Mami should think things through and ask for more information, as Kyubey would do. However, the terminology is intentionally misleading. The term "Soul Gem" is given in English, despite his audience being 13 year old Japanese girls. When a young Japanese person, with English being a secondary language, at best, hears the word "soul", they do not connect it to the Japanese word "Tamashii", but to pop culture, and the use of the English word as flavour text to imply a certain spirituality, especially with spirituality being a low priority subject for a classroom lesson. This goes double with magical girls, which commonly use word choices which have very little to do with the purpose of an item. For example, in Sailor Moon, there are the Witches 5, who are part of the Death Busters, and one of them has a "Fire Buster". However, there's actually 6 Witches, the Death Busters do very little busting of death, and the Fire Buster is a flame thrower, not a fire-fighting tool. Similarly, it's suggested by Kyubey that "Witch" is derived from the characters for "Magical Girl", but even to the Japanese, this is elusive, as it's considered that "Evil" (Ma) and "Magical" (Mahou) are two entirely different words, despite the character for the former being used as part of the latter. Such cases are not unusual in the Japanese language. Thus, Kyubey intentionally uses a language choice which suggests the circumstances as they are, but phrased in a way that requires fairly extensive fact checking to be certain of what's going on, in the typical manner of someone who believes themselves very intelligent. In addition, keeping the truth of the matter quite can be very helpful, as Kyubey's purpose is to instil grief upon his contractors. Usually, this takes care of itself, but if necessary, it could make a useful catalyst - for example, in the case of Mami, who seems quite stable, and seems unlikely to transform without this being pointed out to her.<br />
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As for Kyoko, the probability of Kyoko ever bearing fruit may be slim, and Kyubey is not greedy. Perhaps the evolved Familiars provide as much grief as a magical girl, but at the least, it's providing that at a 5:1 ratio of kills to magical girls, in a situation where Kyoko herself is unnecessary, as a more fragile, incompetent and/or single-minded girl could be contracted to take her place. If the transformation process of Magical Girl to Witch is necessary to gather energy, then Kyoko - who is ruthless enough to avoid spending too much magical power and cold enough to survive her father's mass-murder-suicide with no transformation - will provide dividends at an extremely low probability. By supplying the most minimal level of information - or, rather, a succinct but accurate level of information, which is perfectly logical when dealing with a species with such a small communications bandwidth such as humanity - a situation in which four possibilities arises. 1) The death of Kyoko, creating a higher probability of the high-dividend, average-probability Madoka contracting. 2) Kyoko's success, resulting in Sayaka returning to normal, paving the way for an infinitely regenerating energy source. 3) Kyoko's failure, which does not positively or negatively affect Kyubey in any significant way. And 4) Kyoko's failure, followed by her transformation into a Witch, finally returning dividends on a long term investment. None of these significantly impact Kyubey in any negative manner at all, given the information on hand. Thus, Kyoko's attempt to confront Oktavia is desirable to him, and should not be prevented.<br />
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I'd like to leave it here for now. As I said at the beginning, it's my opinion that all of Kyubey's actions can be explained by the desire to live, without any messy morality being involved in the process, and I've provided several examples for this, which I believe are more logically explained, and more fully intertwined with canon statements, than my predecessor's. [[User:MrSP|MrSP]] 14:16, 4 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::The problem that I see is the desire to live or self preservation, an instinct, is an emotion by itself. Self-preservation is a desire to live, which sounds very "emotional". Let us say that logic indicates that what Kyubey is doing is only buying them time, that it wont stop the ultimate fate of the universe, their actions and their probability of success depends on the possibility that they will overcome entropy by harvesting enough energy. If the odds were on their favor then their acts are logical, if it is against their favor then it is illogical. Considering how Kyubey was trying so hard in getting Madoka it seems to indicate that Kyubey was getting "greedy" (for lack of a better term) and willing to sacrifice a whole planet for a short term gain (of course, I am guessing...). If this is correct then their quotas must be lacking and they may require some adjustments to maximize their energy yield. Yet as we saw Kyubey seems to have rules to follow, albeit he does bend them to his favor. If Kyubey is desperate to overcome entropy it would be much more easier just to follow a "slash and burn" policy and be damned about it. Of course, as you pointed out perhaps this method wont yield enough results, yet if we consider the size of the human population or even of the entire galaxy, even if one forced soul doesnt yield alot of energy, it may add up by the accumulative effect. Of course this is speculation. But the other issue is that we have to consider the possibility that even a civilization like Kyubey must be bounded by rules to live by, no matter how logical they are. The foundation of every civilization or society is to establish laws and rules, why? to minimize chaos and disorder so it doesn't collapse. Such a civilization would require a body politic to establish an extensive network, energy quotas, suggestions how to gather efficient energy, planetary exploration, etc, it needs an institution to run things properly. It also minimizes conflict with other groups or more advance civilizations. I wouldnt be surprised if there are other more advance alien races out there, and some of these organizations have imposed rules on Kyubey's civilization to make the whole process "more fair" and turn a blind eye at the same time and pretend everything is alright... Of course, speculation. We have no choice but to work as much as we can within the framework... And as for equating happiness with emotions. Now remember, Utilitarianism fails to grasp or define what "happiness" means or is to individuals or to society. When I say "happiness", I do not mean on the emotional joyful level, but what I mean in what it can maximize what would be beneficial to society as a whole (or at least to the most fortunate of the group), on in Kyubey's case the universe. While Kyubey doesnt have emotions, they do seek to maximize the lifespan of the universe itself, that would be their "happiness" for a lack of a better term, at the expense of the "suffering" of lesser groups or few planets. We can change "happiness" to "profit" or even to "energy" etc... it doesnt change much of the concept, just the definition but the aim is the same: maximize something at the cost of minimizing something else. IF Kyubey is driven by self preservation as you just suggested, then we have consider the possibility that not only can they feel emotion, but they are being selfish by imposing their rules and beliefs on others and disguise it as "logic". But what if they are not being selfish, just logical and what if their logic just happens to arrive and align to their own self interest and the interest of "others"? Help the universe survive and at the same time allow other worlds, not just their own, to benefit from it? This justification would be enough to convince even the most logical that what they are doing has long term benefits for the majority, at the expense of the minority. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 15:50, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::I would like to also point out that Bentham's utilitarianism tries to divorce morality to justify an action that is beneficial to a group or society, a reason why it has its critics because it tries to discard the messy morality. However, there are unusual discrepancies in Kyubey's action, remember it has always been pointed out as being utilitarian, yet its version seems to differ as it tries to combine both Bentam's and Mill's and it is difficult to explain it without any further details, which is why we speculate. All I can do is trying to find a reason for this transition or discrepancy. However, to me it is not good enough to say that Kyubey's actions are driven by self-preservation that lacks any emotion behind it, if there is any logic behind their actions then we have to see it beyond just "self-preservation" and make a logical argument about it that justifies it... a drive for self-preservation is not just an attempt for the continuation of an species, but it also implies a fear of death. Do kyubey's race fears death? I dont know, but they clearly dont want the universe to end and they see a logic to prologue their existence... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 16:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Kyoko, Puella Magi, and Libertarianism ==<br />
At first I disliked the character of Kyoko because she was so unlike Mami and Sayaka, but then she wormed her way into my heart and looking at the character as a whole one can appreciate her character on its own. I will try to work withing the principle [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw4l1w0rkjs&feature=relmfu philosophy of libertarianism] to try to understand her character to better appreciate her, but also demonstrate why the character of Kyoko could be destructive to society as a whole. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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As always, this will take a while... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<b>Libertarianism: an assertion to freedom</b><br />
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<b>John Locke: Life, liberty and the pursuit of wishes</b><br />
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<b>My Soul Gem, My Choice</b><br />
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<b>A Free Market Solution for a Puella Magi Problem</b><br />
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<b>The Puella Magi Cartel</b><br />
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<b>Puella Magi: Girls of Justice or Magical Mercenaries?</b><br />
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<b>Happiness does not equate freedom. Freedom does not equate happiness.</b><br />
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<s><b>Puellae Magi: a PR Illusion and the Issue of False Interpretation.</b></s></div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Community:Philosophical_Observations&diff=45140Community:Philosophical Observations2012-08-19T07:47:13Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>Moving Philosophical essays and observations to this page --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 05:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Keep in mind, this is only speculation and observation. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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==Madoka and Minding her Motive==<br />
<blockquote>-''"Why is mom working so hard for a company that she never dreamed of working with?" <br>"Hmmm... Mom doesnt like working, she likes working hard. There are a lot of things that she doesn't like about it, but she likes the feeling of satisfaction she gets when she overcomes those obstacles, those achivements are precious to her. It doesn't mean that she dreamed to work for that company. But Mom is living her ideal life, and some dreams come true this way."<br>- "so you make how you live into your dream?"'' ~ Madoka and her father. [[Episode 3]]</blockquote><br />
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During the series we notice that Madoka cant never make up her mind when it comes to making a decision, if she will make a wish or not. All she seems to be doing is stalling, crying, and blaming herself for being so weak. But is that really what is happening? It is true, Madoka feels weak and small, powerless to do anything for anyone. She knows that by becoming a Puella Magi that feeling of worthlessness within her would change. But she is also afraid of dying or worst, becoming a witch, a monster that could destroy her world and hurt even her family. Madoka feels trapped, she feels like she has no choice. But there is also something happening behind her mind as well. Before Madoka can take any action, she needs to understand herself.<br />
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The intellectual philosopher Kant states that ''"If all human beings are worthy of respect, regardless of who they are or where they live, then it's wrong to treat them as mere instruments of the collective happiness."'' To Kant, utilitarianism (and Kyubey) is not only immoral but incorrect. One example is the shopkeeper: ''"A child goes to the store and buys a loaf of bread. The grocer could overchage the kid, charge him more than the usual price for a loaf of bread and the child would never know. But the grocer realizes that if his customers discovered that he took advantage of a child, word might spread out and hurt his business. For this reason, he decides not to overcharge the kid. So he charges him the usual price. So the shopkeeper does the right thing, but for the wrong reason. The only reason he deals honestly with the child is to protect his reputation. The shopkeeper acts honestly only for the sake of self interest; the shopkeeper's action lacks moral worth."'' To Kant, what matters is the quaility of the will, the character of the motive."[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rv-4aUbZxQ&feature=BFa&list=SP30C13C91CFFEFEA6&index=6]<br />
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This example works the same way with Sayaka. Sayaka made a contract with Kyubey to heal Kyosuke. Superficially it seems like a selfless noble act to help a friend. But that is not Sayaka's true motive, regardless of whatever she says to defend her actions. Sayaka's true motive is that if Kyosuke is healed, he would not only get better but he would also fall in love with Sayaka for her sacrifice. But that wasn't Sayaka's wish nor that is what happened. And because Sayaka's wish went unfulfilled she felt into despair, not because she was selfish but because she failed to recognize her real motive behind her wish. Not only that but she used the act of healing Kyosuke as a way to earn Kyosuke's love as a form of reward to be expected from her sacrifice. Sayaka violated her own rights as an attempt to gain something in return, and she never consulted with Kyosuke if he would ever accept such deal (nor is he under any obligation to do so; and if Sayaka tried to force Kyosuke under such deal she would be violating his rights as well, since he never gave consent). In essence Sayaka is expecting a reward or a payment for her sacrifice. <br />
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We need to understand Madoka's true motives regarding in becoming a Puella Magi prior to [[Episode 11]] and her refusal during the series. It is easy to see why Madoka would refuse to make a wish, it means death (or a fate worst than death) so any rational person would refuse (as we saw during her conversation with Homura in [[Episode 4]]). But if that is the case then why is Madoka kept tempted to make a wish? This is where motive is important. In [[Episode 8]] Sayaka has a fight with Madoka, this leads to Madoka to blame herself for being weak and terrified of helping her friend. Madoka hates herself for this. Now at first it seems like Madoka is regretting her lack of action and she is tempted to make a wish to help and save Sayaka from her suffering, but this is not so. Madoka's motive is not to help Sayaka, instead she is afraid of being hated by Sayaka, a completely different understanding lacking the true nobility of friendship. There is another observation that is equally important, Madoka's scene with Kyubey in which he is trying to temp Madoka to make a wish. In this scene Kyubey is trying to convince Madoka that by making a wish she could become a god, he is trying to deceive Madoka into the belief that by becoming a powerful god she can fix everything. But what Kyubey doesnt tell her is that there are no guarantees nor he has any interest to fix anything. But let us look at Madoka's motive behind Kyubey's suggestion for her to become a powerful god. At first glance it seems like Madoka is willing to become a sacrifice to the universe so she can fix everything, save everyone. But is that Madoka's true motive? As before, Madoka's motive is not to fix everything for the good, but to fix the wrongs so she would stop suffering from the feelings of sorrow about herself and others (she wants to change Sayaka back to normal, perhaps as a way to atone her cowardly lack of action). It is during this scene that Madoka confesses to Kyubey that she always felt insignificant and useless. She felt that she would never be able to do anything for anyone to create happiness for others and for herself (a similar conversation took place with Homura in [[Drama CD 1|the drama CD ''"Memories of You"'']]). As you can see Madoka's intention at first seem noble but that is not her true motive; what we learn is that Madoka wishes she could be useful so she would stop being worthless (what Madoka desires is to stop feeling sorry about herself, she wants to avoid any more pain and suffering). Nothing has changed, Madoka continues to believe she is weak, that she is powerless, that if she fixes everything she can feel good about herself. If we watch the scene at first it seems like Kyubey is suggesting a noble sacrifice but in truth all Madoka wants to do is to end the suffering so she would stop her own suffering as well.<br />
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As the series progresses, Madoka's thoughts are slowly changing, specially in [[Episode 11]]. Madoka learns an important lesson from Kyubey, a history of sacrifice and how it has affected humanity. Madoka realizes that it is not about her anymore, it is about the people around her and the puellae magi that came before her. The sacrifices of those girls, their suffering, and how all mankind benefited from it. <br />
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Madoka has gained a lot of information that allows her to reflect about herself, and about others. Madoka's motives changes from "I want to stop being weak and feeling bad about myself" to "I want to save everyone, not to feel good about myself, but to stop the suffering and save everyone" and that "everyone" includes her family, her friends, and Homura. That's Madoka's true motive. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself (''"To act freely is not to choose the best means to a given end. It's to choose the end itself for its own sake"''). By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence. What Madoka is doing is trying to respect the humanity of others (and the puellae magi), she isnt using her own sacrifice to make herself good, she cast away that selfish idea ("being selfless for selfish reasons"). During her scene with her mother in [[Episode 11]] Madoka has finally grown up, she knows that what she is doing will hurt her family but she also knows that she is the only one who can save her family and her town from disaster. Not as a noble sacrifice, but as a moral duty as an adult. Madoka wants to do the right thing for the right reasons, she wants to stop the Puellae Magi's suffering, not to make Madoka powerful, not to make Madoka feel good about herself, but because she truly believes it is the right thing to do to stop the cycle of suffering. <br />
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Madoka's journey was long and painful and critics would like to say that Madoka was too indecisive. But I think the reason it was such a long journey for Madoka it's because Madoka was just being a typical teenage girl trying to figure out herself.<br />
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As a final note, the concert scene with Sayaka is an indicator of how much Madoka has grown. Madoka admits that she could have changed Sayaka's fate, but to do so she would have to stop her from making her wish, so instead she allows Sayaka's right to follow her decision. Sayaka agrees with Madoka's choice to respect her own decisions and the consequences that come with it (as they seem to be aware of the Law of Cycles). This indicates that Madoka respects the puellae magi's wishes and their choices, giving them the dignity and respect that Kyubey never gave them. Then when their time was over, Madoka would come and help them pass so their sacrifice wouldn't be in vain and their suffering would end quietly with no regrets. According with an interview with Urobuchi, this is [http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/pandoras-box-1-madoka-goes-terrorist/ Madoka's own way to acknowledge the magical girls' own hopes and wishes without negating them]. ''"Instead of living to chase after a dream as your goal, you should turn your way of living into your dream."''<br />
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:I never actually thought that reading someone else's philosophically-founded analysis could increase my understanding of an anime, but you've done it. This was very insightful for me. とっても素敵。[[User:Holycrap|Holycrap]] 21:16, 19 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I really think the characters in Madoka could be philosophically analyzed, Kyoko is one character I would like to try. I think there she has a mixture of extreme Libertarian philosophies within her character but my understanding of philosophy is limited. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree with Kant, but not with you. Sayaka is a selfless person with her own desire as well, but she helped Kyosuke not just because of her selfish desire, but also her good will. The problem of Sayaka is her compulsive personality, she forces herself to be a good person, while taking great damage(mental and physical) for other people, she ignores her own heart(In episode 9, what is written on the posters on the wall at the entrance of Octavia's barrier is a twisted form of "look at me", as mentioned by Yuuki Aoi in the commentary video). In a sense, this is very selfless, but you may also say her selflessness is fake because it's the "compulsive selflessness" and it is not the will of her true heart. However, still, Sayaka is basically a selfless person, it's wrong to interpret her as a selfish person, a selfless person is not a person without any selfish desires. <br />
:It is very wrong to interpret Madoka as a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:47, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I dont doubt she was selfless, but the purpose of this philosophical opinion is if Madoka was selfless for the right reasons or selfless for the wrong reason. I am not bashing Madoka, instead I believe Madoka overcomes her difficulty by doing self reflection. Remember, in all timelines Madoka always becomes a Witch. No matter what wish she makes, the wish would be twisted because of the logical nature of it (according with Kyubey). Instead, Madoka overcomes it by understanding the nature of the wish and understanding her own self. Self-reflection. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::What I said is that Madoka had never being a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, when I say "...she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed", I mean she's a true selfless person who's selfless for selfless reasons, and this has never changed. The thing that made Madoka see hope, and resonant with it, which turns her into her ultimate form, is the love of Homura(the spiral of love spins around the arrow of hope, supporting it, protecting it, making it powerful - another important metaphor; it is so beautiful and powerful, isn't it?), not a realization of that she had being selfless for selfish reasons, because she had never being.[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 22:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::::I dont doubt Madoka wants to be good and selfless, but I disagree with the idea she was wholly selfless. She was pure and innocent but not a saint. Madoka is the embodiment of innocence, childhood, and love. But Madoka is also a character who carries flaws like her lack of self-esteem or her inability to believe in herself from the very beginning (this is one reason many fans disliked her in the beginning. They dismissed her as lacking character and a coward, which I disagree). When Madoka cries or feels bad, that's a natural reaction from a child. Madoka stopped running away and crying in the end when she became a bit wiser and mature. We also saw that her idea of mahou shoujo in the begining was more in line with a typical magical girl shows and she wanted to emulate Mami's courage and strength without truly understanding how much Mami had to sacrifice. Once she learns and experiences her life difficulties, instead of running she faces it. Madoka is growing, evolving. If Madoka was selfless and pure since the beginning then there is no transformative element, there is no "change" and with that there is no true hope (for the rest of humanity or the Puella Magi). Madoka's transformation as a Witch is not a result of Madoka's corruption of her purity, it was Madoka's inability to see her own corruptive power. It is true that Homura's love for Madoka led to Madoka's transformative change. However, we have to remember that Madoka didn't develop deep feeling for Homura. Even Homura can see it in Episode 11 and states that their feeling are growing apart. Madoka only realizes Homura's feelings at the end of her evolved transformation. If you listen to Madoka's conversation, she states that she could not understand Homura until Madoka was able to see all of her previous versions and timelines. Only then Madoka could comprehend Homura in a deep manner. Even Urobuchi agrees with this, and that is why he calls it [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Shinjidai_no_Mixture_Magazine_BLACK_PAST "cruel"]. That doesn't mean that Madoka didn't care for Homura's safety in Episode 12, it just means that Madoka cared for the safety of everyone in town (including her family ) at that time. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::::Madoka is selfless at the beginning, but she couldn't see hope and resonant with it while facing the greatest darkness, until Homura's love making her powerful - that's the transformation, love makes her see, that despair is unnecessary, no matter how strong the darkness is, it can always be shattered by hope(which means the non-increasing nature of hope and non-decreasing nature of despair is not true, not matter how it seems to be true, it is not. Or you can say the rule of Universe, which is hope being non-increasing and despair being non-decreasing, has being changed. The two statements are equivalent). Madoka doesn't understand Homura consciously at the beginning, but her subconsciousness is transformed by her love without her realizing it(She could even feel the love but she doesn't know where it comes from. If her subconsciousness hasn't changed, why would she become more and more powerful? Since only the heart of a Puella magi determines her magical power). I don't know why you don't like the saying that Madoka became a witch because of her being corrupted, I think this is a good way to describe it. Madoka is not unable to see her own corruptive power, since in some timelines before she's being turned into a witch, she knew what is inside her is going to turn her into a witch.<br />
:::::I'm not saying Madoka is perfect at the beginning, but she's almost totally selfless, and she hasn't done anything selfless for selfish reasons until the moment she was turned into a witch--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 23:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You misunderstand, I am not saying that Sayaka's selflessness is fake, the problem with Sayaka is that she lacks self reflection. Sayaka only realized the meaning of being a magical girl in Episode 9, by then it was too late and she transformed into a witch. I believe what Sayaka did was noble, she was also stubborn and childish. In her heart she thought she was doing good, in reality all she did was hurt others, including Madoka. IF Sayaka had been more honest with her feelings and her motives, perhaps her wish would not have gone unfulfilled, but that's just assuming. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:Oh, wow. WOW. I know that I'm pretty late to the whole congratulatory party, Mutopis(?), but I gotta say, I REALLY loved your analysis of Madoka's character, which I completed this early morn. I think it helps settle, at least somewhat, one of the little enduring qualms about I've had the ending-- a qualm that I was actually thinking on earlier tonight-- even though I personally regard Madoka's as one of the absolute best anime endings I've seen. And that was just how drastically fast and life-altering Madoka's development seemed to be, from (literally and mentally) a 14 year old girl to a goddess-like figure with a wisdom that surely can't be comprehended by our living humanity. There wasn't a lot of breathing room for this development! It's not like how it was with Jesus Christ, who knew of his universal significance and the fate that awaited him and lived every day of his life as we know it in preparation for it. Why, it's not even like most stories centered on a Hero's Journey, where the hero knows that he or she matters in some big way or another for a majority or reasonably large portion of the story. BUT-- seeing you map out her characterization, her subtle demonstrations of kindness and maturity, and your reminder of the revelations/conversations Madoka's had in episode 6 and 11-- the "transformation" has definitely become easier to come to grips with; it doesn't seem as extremely sudden as it did before. (still fairly accelerated, though.) (Really, thanks for giving greater context to the dialogue/revelation in episode 11's content-- I have actually semi-purposefully limited my own exposure to both episodes 11 & 12, having only let myself go through whole episode viewings twice each despite having the whole series on VLC. It's probably some combination of not wanting to make myself cry more, not wanting the ending to lose meaning to me, and not wanting to come to grips that the story, until the third movie's contents are revealed, is really over and done.) [[User:Animerican-Redeemed|Animerican-Redeemed]] 09:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Kyubey and Utilitarianism ==<br />
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I am working on Kyubey's utilitarianism, this space is for a rough draft.<br />
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Urobuchi's view in energy conservation and connection to [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/SWITCH_2011-07_Vol.29_No.07 Kyubey's utilitarianism] [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Spa_Weekly!_2011-07-19 kyubey's belief] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 the overly romanticism of (good) reality (false perception) and good intentions with bad results of unhappiness] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 trade offs]. By the way I am reading Michael Sandel's book [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY "Justice"] and it is a good source of understanding philology. Will finish when I can. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I take it that the words below are your voice (and not an attempt at translation), right, Mutopis? I ask for purpose of response. ;) -- [[User:NS|preceding comment by NS]] 16:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I can confirm these are not Urobuchi's thoughts. --[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 16:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::This is a philosophical essay with my words, I use some comments and information from interviews and some material from the book "Justice" to interpret the anime series in a philosophical way. I am using the same method that I did with [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|Madoka and her motives]] to appreciate and get a better understanding. I want to see if Kyubey's utilitarianism is that simple or it is more complex than that, and why it seems justifiable (I am playing the devil's advocate), but more importantly to demonstrate that Kyubey is not evil, but just follows what he was created to do. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 20:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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*Guys, if you like to contribute or express an opinion about the essay, you are more than welcome. This is just a rough draft. I think I will be working on this for a while and I would like some opinions to make sure it remains consistent. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
*I hope no one has any problem with this essay being long. To tell you the truth I have no idea how long this will grow into. I am still working, rewriting, doing few changes here and there... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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** Thanks for your professional opinion. But there are too many changes a day, and that makes it troublesome to track changes. Isn't it better to write into a file in your computer first to reduce modification to the page? And I think it good to open a new topic talking about this. [[User:Yorkwoo|Yorkwoo]] 15:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Well, this looks interesting, but it seems a bit long for this talkpage. I think it might be better suited either as a subpage under your user namespace or as a proper article.--[[User:Knon|Knon]] 12:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I wanted to leave it here for those who wanted to understand the character of Kyubey. I dont know, an article page about philosophy?... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::A link to a new page would work just as well for those further interested in Kyubey. --[[User:Knon|Knon]] 04:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
* I did a lot of cleaning and polishing. If anyone wants to fix some spelling errors and such, you are more than welcome. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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===What is Utilitarianism?===<br />
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The Human Philosophy known as [[wikipedia:Utilitarianism|utilitarianism]] can be easily breakdown as the philosophy that pursues the maximization of happiness and the reduction of pain, or at least the creation of happiness that surpasses the overall total of pain. If Kyubey's brand of utilitarianism was that simple there would be no need for this essay. But utilitarianism, like all brands of philosophy, have taken several different developments and each one has a distinctive flavor that requires recognition. This will be an attempt to understand Kyubey's own brand of Utilitarianism.<br />
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According with [[Episode 9|Kyubey's mission]], he wants to save the universe by offsetting the depletion of the universe's energy (actually, Kyubey's statement is wrong, the correct assessment would be to stop [[Thermodynamics|the permanent loss of heat]], but who am I to question an advance alien race?). To accomplish this mission Kyubey's alien race has found the answer to the problem, the harvesting of human emotion. The process is simply, give a human magical powers to maximize their sense of hope, then reverse their hope to be turned into despair, during the process the despair energy would be released during the witchfication process thus repairing the damage done to the universe. Repeat the process countless of times until an appropriate energy quota per planet is reached. Sounds simple yet horrifying at the same time. For many this is an example of utilitarianism as its worst, many critics believe that Kyubey is justifying the exploration of little girls to save the universe. However, before we can accuse Kyubey of anything, it is essential to understand the moral nature, as well as Kyubey's reasoning behind it, to determine if the reasoning is justifiable. <br />
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===Kyubey and Bentham: Let us just enslave the human race!===<br />
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Invaders from another galaxy have decided that to save the universe, they must harvest energy to repair the damage already done to it. Their race is incapable of producing such energy by themselves, but thanks to their advance technology they have detected a source of energy that is perfect to solve their crisis. They have detected a "bizarre" mental behavior known as "emotions" capable of producing the required energy but it goes unprocessed and it is localized in another galaxy. The inhabitants of this alien galaxy are equally strange as primitive, not only do they suffer from this mental anomaly known as emotions, but they are being wasteful by not fully developing its potential. Such a waste of energy would be a crime if left unharvested. The alien race decides to invade this galaxy, enslave the inhabitants, and fully exploit its potential by maximizing the production of energy to meet their quota... or so it should be if this was Bentham's brand of utilitarianism but it is not (at least not completely). This is the first indicator that there is something odd about Kyubey's utilitarianism.<br />
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According with Jeremy Bentham, the goal of Utilitarianism is to produce as much happiness as possible, regardless of the means. But most importantly, all forms of happiness and all form of pains have their own equal moral value (no pleasure is better or highest than the other). Which means one form of happiness cannot be measured against another form of happiness; the same can be said about pain. It takes people's preferences as they are without passing judgement on its moral worth. It would be presumptuous to judge some pleasures to be inherently better than others. At the heart of it, Bentham's utilitarianism is nonjudgmental, to him all pleasures are equal. The assumption is that by measuring and calculating the values of pleasure and pains into a formula, one can reach an agreeable moral choice that would promote the general welfare and happiness of the populace. Let us consider the issue at hand, the whole universe is going to be destroyed and all Kyubey is doing is extinguishing a few souls to preserve the general welfare and happiness of countless galaxies. Perhaps one whole planet would be annihilated in the process, but what is a few billion souls when you take into account billions and billions of worlds that would be saved. Some would object that exploiting and even killing human beings is immoral and wrong. Yet, Kyubey would point out that humans do it all the time to one another, and not only that but that they even do it against other lower life forms for their own selfish benefit. After all, aren't humans exploiting animals and other organism to feed their populace, to attain monetary gain, and maintain their civilization? (be it on the agricultural sector or for medical research or a source of cheap labor). Why should humans be given a preferential treatment? After all, maybe there are more advance and worthier alien species out there that deserves to be saved more than humans, and maybe that makes humans the lower life form. On this cold and calculating equation to save the universe one has to arrive to one simple conclusion. If saving the universe by exploiting the emotions of humans has the same moral value than domesticating cattle to feed society, then it should be reasonable to say that Bentham would not object to enslaving the human race to achieve Kyubey's objective. While one would object that it would be morally wrong to exploit humans, one would also have to argue that it would be equally morally wrong to allow the universe to be destroyed. In the utilitarian equation it would be better for one whole planet to suffer than the whole universe to collapse. After all, saving the universe at the expense of the human race would create the greatest form of happiness for the rest of the galaxy. It would suck for the human race, but stopping the end of the universe trumps anything and everything. And if you don't like what Kyubey is doing then too bad, the end justifies the means and the universe would be saved, like it or not. <br />
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Yet, as stated before, that is not the case here, at least partially. Apparently, Kyubey and the aliens have some sort of moral code of their own that disallow them to force humans to enter into a contract (slavery) but they are also not allowed to deceive (false advertisement) or lie to them either (this is, of course, up to debate). However, they do not seem to have any moral qualms regarding the harvesting of human emotions to save the galaxy, just the slavery part.<br />
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One objection to utilitarianism is the attempt to measure pleasure and pain in a single scale while ignoring the qualitative experience of pleasure and pain. For many, certain forms of pleasure are not only higher but also worthier than others. It is believed that the pursue of a nobler pleasure would allow utilitarianism to the arrival of the greatest good. One could make an argument that saving the universe would create happiness but that the quality of happiness would suffer at the expense of perverse methods used for to attain it. Instead, one could say that Kyubey is trying to create the greatest form of happiness by using much more nobler (albeit questionable) methods to attain it. Rather than force the human race into submission and slavery, why not entice them into a fair contract? <br />
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===Kyubey and Mill: Humans are not Cattle.===<br />
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One of the biggest flaws regarding Benthram's utilitarianism is that it doesn't give adequate recognition to human dignity and individual liberty. In its attempt to measure, aggregate, and calculate happiness in a nonjudgmental manner (democratizing all forms of pleasures equally) it eliminates the qualitative and unique moral value of pleasure and pain. What Bentham has done is reduce everything of moral importance to a single scale. John Stuart Mill tries to recalculate utilitarianism into a more humane and less calculating doctrine (a more human-friendly form of utilitarianism that is less prone to enslaving the human race) to achieve a munch nobler form of Utilitarianism that tries to promote the greatest good while recognizing the liberty of individuals. On Mill's ideal version of utilitarianism, as long as no one gets hurt and no one imposes their beliefs on others, then everyone is allowed to exercise their own free will and liberty to achieve the correct moral value that results in the greatest good.<br />
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Let us go back to our scenario regarding an alien race looking for a solution to save our universe. The aliens realized that the human race are the perfect source of emotional energy to be harvested to repair the damage already done to the universe. Kyubey's aliens know that humans are still primitive and prone to their own mental illness known as emotions. Why not put them to better use by enslaving them and harvesting all their energy? At least they would suffer for a noble cause. According with Mill this would be wrong for two reasons. One, it violates the liberty and rights of the human race and its individuals, no one should force them to be used as resources, no matter the cause. Second, the issue at stake here is that the noble idea to save the universe gets tainted because of the process that it is used to achieve the result. Why is this important? It could be damaging for the promotion of general welfare and happiness. Bentham would just suggest that "the end justifies the means" as long as the highest form of happiness is achieved. But Mill's issue is that such inhumane methods may create the greatest form of happiness today, but in the long run it could promote reckless behavior with devastating results. And who is to say that the human race wont try to overthrow their alien overlords to free themselves? Mill is trying to use utilitarian principles as an attempt to promote progressive behavior (the pursue of not the highest pleasure but the noble ones as well). <br />
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Let us take for example the danger of creating a Superwitch like [[Kriemhild Gretchen]]. We saw the devastating results that took place in [[Episode 10]] in which the Earth was destroyed along with all life on the planet. According with Kyubey the creation of Kriemhild Gretchen allowed Kyubey to meet its energy quota in the short run. Of course, this [[wikipedia:slash-and-burn|slash-and-burn]] method was very profitable for Kyubey but what about the loss of future energy collection now that the Earth is dead? No problem, Kyubey states that there are other planets to exploit and using its cold logic the benefits outweighed the risks. Let us assume that what Kyubey is probably saying is that Gretchen produced more energy in a single day than a lifetime collection from the Earth. Perhaps this single offset prevented the future despair of millions of girls; isn't that a better outcome? To reduce the despair of future victims? Not to mention Incubators are now much closer on saving the universe. If this is correct, then losing the planet Earth was an acceptable loss to attain a large reserve of despair energy (perhaps the largest in history), according to Bentham. But Mill would disagree, what about the consequences? What about the fact that this act stains the noble cause to save the universe?<br />
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Kriemhild Gretchen is a Superwitch, but apparently at the moment she is no threat to the galaxy. She may be powerful enough to kill one planet but she still small and powerless enough to be no threat to the alien race or to the whole galaxy for that matter. But let us say overtime she could be, perhaps with time she would find a way to travel to other planets and start growing. Wont this become an issue in the future? And what about the reckless behavior that it promoted? Wont there be a danger that other Incubators from other planets would like try to recreate the same scenario to meet their quota? Soon, it would not just be one planet, but perhaps a few docents and even more that are suddenly destroyed by a Superwitch. And who is to say that these Superwitches wont find a way to merge their powers and create a Super Walpurgis Night powerful enough to destroy the whole universe? Should Incubators take such chance? That is what could happen in the worst case scenario. Of course, this a fabricated scenario of a possible future event. No one knows what the consequences would be like after the destruction of the Earth. It could promote the accelerated process to end the whole galaxy, instead of saving it, but it is just as likely that it doesn't. But that is one dangerous scenario regarding utilitarianism that Mill would like to avoid. <br />
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So, what is Mill's advice for Kyubey regarding utility? Well, not slaving the human race for one. Which in fact that is what they did. As stated by Kyubey, it is against the rules to force humans to become a mahou shoujo against their will. It is their individual choice to decide if they want to become one. This would seem to indicate that Kyubey respects the rights of individuals rather than violate them. After all, Kyubey can be found promoting the Mahou Shoujo lifestyle without forcing anyone to join in, as it is per rules. But what about the recognition for human dignity? Isn't it implied that by harvesting and using humans as resources are they no better than cattle to be consumed? But Kyubey has already an answer for it. Let us not forget that Kyubey recognizes humans to be unique creatures with a noble goal and purpose, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey knows that humans are not lower life forms like cattle just to be harvested and consumed to save the universe, regardless of how humans treat each other or other lower lifeforms. Kyubey states that while it would be for the greater good to harvest human emotions, regardless how Madoka feels personally, at least Kyubey and the alien race took the effort to recognize their uniqueness. Of course, that seems like a nice speech but it still requires substance and evidence behind his words. One clear evidence is that if Kyubey thought humans were cattle then why bother with allowing humans to roam free? Why the rules regarding the respect of personal liberty and choice? We must also remember that as a sign of recognition regarding the uniqueness of humans, they are allowed one single wish in the transaction. Kyubey could easily steal their human soul but they are forbidden to do so. Kyubey states that is one reason why humans are allowed such honor for accepting a contract. While it is true that Kyubey is using humans as a resource, they are neither slave nor cattle, no one is forcing them to make a contract to join in. Instead, the mahou shoujo are like employees and they are given the opportunity and honor to sacrifice their own lives for a noble goal. Isn't that what a mahou shoujo is all about? Girls of justice and noble sacrifice to triumph over evil? It is not slavery if a mahou shoujo gives consent and it is not exploitation if they accept a wish as a form of payment.<br />
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However, there is a certain flaw regarding this argument that Kyubey is practicing a brand of Mill's utilitarianism, and that is that we are assuming that is what Kyubey is doing. First of all, as anyone who has watched the show, would have noticed that Kyubey's actions and behavior have been deceptive so far (Kyubey would disagree). Not to mention the fact that Kyubey concealed the true nature of witches and mahou shoujo from starry-eye naive girls. And who can forget the mess that resulted for the Earth in [[Episode 10]], and Kyubey's disregard for the well being of the planet's inhabitants. Was that Kyubey being cold and cruel? Or was Kyubey just accepting the hard facts as it were, and was there really nothing that Kyubey could have done about it? To Mill, he would be appalled; after all the goal of utilitarianism is to achieve not just happiness but to make sure that the practice of utility would retain long term results. The destruction of the Earth may be good for the survival of the universe, but Mill would not consider that to be an acceptable loss for the greater good if the rights of billions of humans are violated in the process. What about the adverse effect that it would produce? Couldn't this establish a terrible precedent for future energy collection processes and encourage bad immoral behavior through out the galaxy.<br />
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Such practice and behavior brings into question Kyubey's moral value and its sensibility, if it was being measured against human values. There lies a fundamental problem, we know nothing regarding this alien culture and their definition of morality (for all we know their doctrine is based on emotionless cold logic), but for the sake of argument let us assume that they do share our same view regarding morality. Can it be said that Kyubey's utilitarianism tries to remain faithful to either Bentham or Mill? Is it a mixture of it? Or perhaps it is neither and both, perhaps it is an unique form of utilitarianism? Or maybe the problem lies with Mill's utilitarianism, in which we are expecting Kyubey to live up to its principle ideally. But before that, we have to ask ourselves. Are we judging Kyubey unfairly? <br />
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===Let's Make a Deal: The Meaning of Consent.===<br />
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Let us explore the process in which one accepts a contract. One day a furry magical creature approaches you with the promise of making you into a magical girl and in exchange you get one wish. It sounds like a great bargain but you wonder if there is a trick to it. Of course, before you can accept the deal, the magical creature is obligated to disclose to you the dangers of becoming a magical girl. It informs you that you will be fighting witches, but you will be granted magical powers to defeat them. Sounds fair, right? What Kyubey is doing is offering you a product that sounds too good to be true, the creature discloses the terms of conditions (fight witches to gain more magic and to keep yourself alive) in exchange for the opportunity to attain any wish that you want (within the limits of karmatic energy availability). The process sounds simple and you do not suspect anything. After all, it seems that you are being recruited to hunt down evil Witches who are eating innocent humans, it sounds like a noble cause. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity that may never come up again (unless you are one of those girls who Kyubey decides to pester every opportunity to make a contract). You are swoon and tempted by the opportunity that you decide to accept the contract, perhaps you feel desperate enough to want your wish that you decide it is better than nothing. Then somehow you later learn that what you signed into was not what you expected, you are horrified to learn the truth behind the Puella Magi System that you want a way out to avoid your fate into becoming a Witch. But Kyubey refuses to do anything to reverse the process and tells you that you are under contractual obligation to fulfill your part of the bargain. It informs you that you are under no obligation to hunt down witches if you want, as it will accelerate the transformation process if you keep using your magic for anything else, but the process itself cannot be stopped. You accuse Kyubey of lying and the furry creature would refute your accusation by saying that it never lied and that you never ask for more details of what being a magical girl entails (in other words, you never read the fine print). But most importantly, Kyubey would maintain that since you consented to become a magical girl, you also consented with the terms and conditions of the contract that came with it: Fight witches until the moment of metamorphosis, in which the despair energy would be collected to repair the universe. Once a witch you would be freed from your contractual obligation and live the rest of your life as a witch until you are killed by another magical girl (of course, Kyubey wouldn't say it outright in the beginning. If Kyubey was a lawyer he would probably codified it in legalize to avoid annoying questions). But the point is clear, not only you gave consent to become a witch, but you failed to properly educate yourself with the consequences of becoming a Witch. In the end, the failure lies with you. Perhaps Kyubey should wear a [[wikipedia:Caveat_emptor|''"Caveat Emptor"'']] sign around his neck to warn would-be magical girls, but that would undermine Kyubey's purpose and Kyubey would declare that that would be unfair for the universe, as it would guarantee the destruction of all life, along with planet Earth in the near or far future.<br />
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Let us analyze what went wrong and determine who truly is at fault. First of all, what is consent? And once we learn the meaning of it. Does it meet the requirements to be declared consensual? Or did any girl who consented did not truly consented because it did not meet the requirements for it? <br />
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Consent refers to the provision of approval, particularly and especially after thoughtful consideration. To be considered a consent, means that the individuals gives acceptance to an agreement after making an inform decision. However, those who believe that Kyubey is deceitful would point out that any girls' consent is tainted because their informed decision lacked the adequate information to make a rational decision. Some would even go so far as to say that Kyubey used coercion to attain their consent during questionable situations. Therefore, critics would say it fails to meet the requirements for consent. If we consider Kyubey's practice to be deceitful and with the added element of coercion into it, it does bring into question wherever Kyubey's actions are valid and legal (if you could somehow take an alien to court to enforce Earth/national laws. But let us say that you can for the sake of argument). <br />
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First, the issue of coercion. One great example that we can use is [[Tomoe Mami]]'s case. Mami is a victim of a car crash accident (let us say for convenience that there is no foul play in part of Kyubey) and she is dying. The ambulance is on its way but it wont make it on time and Mami's body is already failing. Her body is mere minutes away from death and nothing can be done for her. Then suddenly, Kyubey appears and tells her that if she would like to make a contract. Kyubey informs Mami that it would grant her one wish and she would be fighting witches for the rest of her life. And she can make any wish she wants. This is a classic example of obtaining consent during duress. Mami has two choices to make, either accept Kyubey's contract and become a mahou shoujo or die. So she made her wish, she wished she could live (actually we dont know the actual wording of the wish, but it is assumed it had something to do with saving her life). Critics would say that Kyubey was being manipulative and unfair, that Mami's consent was tainted. The only way that Mami's consent would be valid, would be if Kyubey had approached Mami before the accident or if Kyubey had saved Mami's life first then ask her if she would like to make a contract with Kyubey. <br />
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I would like to point out certain issues on this case. In accordance with utilitarianism (in which Mami chose the pleasure of living over the pain of dying), Mami benefited from Kyubey's contract and any complains she may have against Kyubey is invalid. After all, Mami wanted to not die and Kyubey wanted to get a contract from Mami. Both of them had something that the other wanted and in the exchange they both got it. Under that rationality it would be hardly unfair. Second, even if one considers Mami's consent to be tainted or coerced, their complain is invalid. After all, the idea of coercion would mean that someone's rights was violated. Unless someone can find evidence that Kyubey staged the accident, then maybe they would have a point, but it is not. There is also the issue that Kyubey obtained Mami's consent while dying. Critics like to point out that Kyubey should have saved Mami first, instead it was taking advantage of the situation. We have to remember, in the case of Kyubey we do not know what kind of magical powers Kyubey itself can use or do, Kyubey is simply part of the process to create and grant wishes. It's like saying "Why Kyubey cant wish itself to repair the universe?" Because it cant. For all that we know, approaching Mami with a contract was Kyubey's way of helping her. Let us assume that this is correct (a big assumption, I know) and Kyubey is a powerful yet powerless creature unless a wish is made. If this is correct, then there is nothing Kyubey could have done by itself other than grant wishes. If Kyubey is guilty of anything, is perhaps of taking advantage of a situation. Of course, critics would continue to question the issue of validity within Mami's consent, and whatever she was on her right mind to make such decision. But the fact remains that, regardless of the situation, Mami still gave consent to save her life and she benefited from her choice. Kyubey would like to point out that it doesn't matter in which situation Kyubey got her consent, the fact remains that in Mami's case if it hadn't approached her she would be dead, instead she got to live longer (just to be killed by a [[Charlotte|cheese eating Witch]]). If anything, Mami benefited the most from the situation (to Kyubey's point of view). And since a deal is a deal, it is hardly unfair as long as both party benefited. I would agree that the issue regarding consent in Mami's case is a bit murky and difficult to determine, because of the lack of proper information. However, since we are trying to determine a conclusion with the given information, this would be my own impression. According with Bentham, the issue regarding consent doesn't matter since an individual's right don't matter on the utilitarian equation, and since both parties benefited at the time, the deal was hardly unfair. For Mill, since Mami got to live longer and she avoided the pain of death, she got the greatest good in return. While it is true that the issue of consent is at the heart of the question, we have to assume that in Mill's equation, the desire to live and the want for self-preservation would outweigh her individual's right. Mill would agree that Mami's liberty must be preserved on the utilitarian equation, but when you are weighting the two rights of the same individual, which side has the greater value? On one side it is Mami's right to life, on the other it is Mami's right to be allowed to consent free of pressure, deception, and duress. But let us be clear, Kyubey did not create the situation that Mami was in, and also there was the issue of time. Given what was occurring, there is not enough evidence to find culpability with Kyubey at the moment of the accident. And since Mami's life was at risk, her right to life takes precedent. And Mill would also like to remind us that no one got hurt during the deal (it did more than that, it prevented someone from dying). The issue of Mami's right being violated is moot since Mami's rights were preserved by saving her life so she could continue to exercise those same rights. According to Mill, actions and consequences aren't the only issue, an individual's character also matters. If Mami were to die she would be deprived to exercise her rights and to develop her character as an individual. And what would be the worst precedent from this quandary? Kyubey appearing to every girl close to death and giving them the chance to save their own lives? Wouldn't that create the greatest happiness? And what if every girl Kyubey saves from death are like Mami, or even better? Wouldn't that be not just good for society but even better? (let us assume that Kyubey saves more girls like Mami than Kyouko on this contingent assumption). Mill would agree that protecting Mami's right is important for utility to preserve the general welfare. However, he would also agree that since the rights violated were inconsequential to society (and for Mami) and instead it promoted the greatest good with harm to no one, then it has served its purpose to serve the greatest good.<br />
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Let us set aside Mami's case for now and let us examine the accusation of Kyubey's deception. Critics and detractors have objected to Kyubey's practices on attaining victims for his scam and they have accused Kyubey of lying to get its goal. As always, Kyubey would disagree with them. I don't have to tell you what Bentham's side would be regarding on lying, since he wouldn't see a problem with this as long as Kyubey's action maximizes happiness (eg: save the universe). But what about on Mill's side of utilitarianism? What would be Mill's view on lying be? <br />
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===I cannot tell a lie, you will fail Kyoko.===<br />
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Let us picture this scenario. Kyubey is chasing down Madoka and it is seeking her location, it arrives to Homura's residency but before Homura gets to fill that furry alien with bullets, Kyubey asks if Homura has seen Madoka. Prior to Kyubey's arrival, Madoka has sought refuge within Homura's home and she is hiding. On this situation, Mill would say that lying is ok because it serves to the greater good, to protect a girl from Kyubey. To Mill, lying is ok as long as it saves lives and serves its purpose to create happiness. While lying is deceitful, it has some good uses. And as long as the lie harms no one, then there shouldn't be any problem. But what about when Kyubey uses lying to save the universe? Wouldn't that also be for the greatest good? No, it wouldn't be. Kyubey would have violated the liberty of individual girls by forcing them into contracts under false pretense, and by using falsehood and deception, Kyubey has tainted the utility and quality of the greater good. The problem with this assumption, is that it believes that Kyubey would lie, cheat, and steal to attain his goal when in facts it is the opposite. Let us first try to understand Kyubey's "deception" and determine if there is some ground for such accusation.<br />
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Observers would notice three things about Kyubey. Whenever it seeks a contract it would only give a basic information and minimal detail regarding what the job entails; when someone ask a question that could unravel the true nature of the Puella Magi System, Kyubey would try to give a satisfactory answer that doesn't divulge too much information; and sometimes when someone wants an honest answer from Kyubey, it would divulge answers that could be interpreted differently that, strictly speaking, could be misleading ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqzW0eHzDSQ&feature=relmfu a misleading truth]). The problem here is that none of this proves that Kyubey has ever lied. It is true that Kyubey has omitted information whenever it suited its purpose, it is also true that Kyubey divulged information with the prospect of influencing events to his favor, and that it tried to hide facts by being vague or evasive without being false. But, was Kyubey a liar? Was Kyubey maliciously deceiving girls for his advantage? In other words, there is a difference between being purposely deceitful and another is using misleading truths (without being false or lying) in the hope that it would be incorrectly interpreted on Kyubey's favor. <br />
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Let us start with Sayaka as an example. In [[Episode 2]], Sayaka asks Kyubey what are Witches and how are they any different from mahou shoujo. Kyubey's response was simple yet clever, if a mahou shoujo is born from wishes then witches are born from curses. So a mahou shoujo spreads hope while a Witch spreads despair. Nowhere in this sentence is Kyubey lying, technically Kyubey is not only telling the truth but it briefly gives a glimpse to the Puella Magi System. Of course, you have to read between the lines and be a bit clever to realize it but to anyone unfamiliar with the system, they wouldn't even give much of a second thought. At that moment if Sayaka had pressed further the issue, who knows how far could Kyubey could have avoided telling the whole truth. But sadly, Sayaka didn't. So in effect, as long as they fail to ask the right questions, it is not Kyubey's fault.<br />
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Let us look to another example regarding Kyubey's clever way to influence a situation by telling a misleading (but carefully prepared) truth. In [[Episode 9]], Kyoko asks Kyubey if there is a way to get Sayaka's Soul Gem back. Kyubey responds that it doesn't know of any known method. We all know that Kyubey is using a careful evasion not to divulge its opinion, but at the same time tries to divulge the truth. Kyoko not wanting to give up asks Kyubey if are there things that even Kyubey doesnt know. Kyubey replies that it doesn't know everything that there is to know. It acknowledges that the nature of magic defies logic and that it wouldn't be surprising if something absurd did came out of it (let us not forget, Kyubey makes the impossible possible). Kyoko takes Kyubey's response as acknowledging that there is a possibility for her hopes. However, that is a misleading truth. Kyubey does acknowledge that magic defies logic, that what Kyoko would try to attempt has never been tried before. But Kyubey also knows that what Kyoko is suggesting is impossible and would never succeed as it "defies logic"; and even if for some absurd miracle something did happen, the odds of it are astronomical. Of course, Kyubey doesn't tell her that directly, instead it uses misleading truths and facts to confuse Kyoko so she would reach to the wrong conclusion. If you read between the lines, Kyubey is saying that what Kyoko is attempting is foolish and impossible, but Kyubey also adds that magic belongs to the realm of the impossible and that its nature is not well understood (but I am certain that Kyubey is betting that logic would prevail). Whatever conclusion Kyoko ever arrives to, it is not Kyubey's fault. Since Kyubey would respond that it has only given her the information that she needed to reach to the right conclusion. If Kyoko misinterpreted Kyubey's information and instead got the wrong impression, then the fault lies with Kyoko. After all, Kyubey told her the truth and tries to neither encourage nor discourage Kyoko on her wrong conclusion. Kyubey does admit that it usually stops a pointless sacrifice (don't get the wrong idea, Kyubey just doesn't like to lose girls too early before their emotions can be harvested) but in this case it didn't stop her. According to Kyubey, losing Kyoko has a great advantage to further utility. Now, critics would point out that Kyubey killed Kyoko by not discouraging her to stop her foolish plan. It is true, Kyubey did not tried to stop her, instead it just allowed the situation to unfold itself. But here is what it gets tricky, according to Mill people have the freedom to do whatever they want as long as they are not hurting others ''"Government may not interfere with individual liberty in order to protect a person from himself, or to impose the majority's beliefs about how best to live"''("Justice", pg. 49). In essence, Kyubey was allowing Kyoko to exercise her right to recklessly endanger herself. Kyubey knows well the dangers ahead for Kyoko, but since it is Kyoko's right to get herself killed, why interfere? After all, Kyoko knows very well how dangerous it is to meddle with a Witch, she is a veteran mahou shoujo, so she already knows the risks already. If Kyoko wanted to risk her life for an impossible task, then that was her right and her freedom to do so. But let us say hypothetically, what if Kyoko knew what Kyuey was thinking and she still decided to take a gamble? What if Kyoko knew Kyubey was using misleading truths to get rid of her? Critics would say that Kyubey should had at least warn her and told her the truth of the matter. After all, Kyoko is stubborn and would do whatever she wants, no matter the objections. Here is what Mill's utility tell us. First of all, Kyubey has the right and liberty to discard and tell any information in any way it wants it to be, Kyubey can be directly honest and get to the point or deliver the truth in such a way that it could be misinterpreted (as long as Kyubey's words are truthful). Kyubey would also add that it did warn Kyoko on its own way, Kyubey told her that what Kyoko was attempting has never been done in the past and in Kyubey's mind that was an enough warning. What Kyoko does after that is still Kyoko's responsibility. In the end, the fact remains that Kyubey is not attempting to tell a lie but it is attempting to tell the truth in a way that makes it the listeners responsibility to discern the correct conclusion. To force Kyubey to tell Kyoko the whole truth would be a violation of Kyubey's liberty. Also, Kyubey is not harming Kyoko by not telling her the directly the truth. Instead, it is Kyoko who does the harming by not correctly deciphering Kyubey's information. Kyubey would suggest that nowhere at any time it harmed Kyoko, it was in fact [[Oktavia]] who did most of the harming, because Kyoko was too dumb to realize that what she was attempting to do was impossible, and even more dumber for not reading between the lines what Kyubey was telling her. In Kyubey's words, it would say that it never lied; it would acknowledge that it withhold information, but that was because they never asked further; and if anyone ever felt deceived, it is their own fault for misunderstanding Kyubey's words (words that were always truthful). For those who say that Kyubey is deceptive, they are correct but for a different reason that critics would like to believe. Kyubey was hoping its words would be misinterpreted (I don't doubt that was its goal) while still honoring the values of honesty and veracity. That's what frustrates Kyubey's critics. It is true that Kyube is hoping to mislead its victims. But at the same time, Kyubey is honoring the moral laws within the boundaries by hoping that the victims would believe the truth that it's saying and the fact that it's communicating. If the victims misunderstood it's words and the message that Kyubey is communicating, it is not Kyubey's fault. And for that reason one can say that Kyubey is hoping to mislead while at the same time honoring the moral laws without telling a lie. Yes, Kyubey is deceptive but he/she is not a liar.<ref>I would like to make it clear that this is a [[wikipedia:Categorical_imperative|categorical imperative]] from a Kantian philosophy regarding "telling a lie", it is defined as a way of evaluating motivations for action (See, [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|"Madoka and Minding her Motive"]]). Utilitarianism is considered a [[wikipedia:Consequentialism|consequentialism]], meaning that the moral worth of an action is determined by its resulting outcome. These two bands of philosophies are completely different from each other. But I thought Kant's explanation was much more beautiful and elegant regarding the difference between telling a lie and using a "misleading truth". If Kyubey was as smart as a [[wikipedia:Vulcan_(Star_Trek)|logical Vulcan]], I believe it would use the Kantian method of telling the truth.</ref><br />
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And before anyone objects by saying that Kyubey never warned the girls that becoming a mahou shoujo means getting your soul ripped from your body, we have to take a look back at [[Episode 2]]. When Mami was giving her introductions to Madoka and Sayaka, Kyubey informed the girls that it can grant any wish they want, but that the price of that wish is the production of the Soul Gem and fighting Witches. Let us disregard the obvious fact that the word ''"Soul"'' is in the name of the magical jewelry; if you read between the lines, Kyubey is telling the girls (in its subtle way) that by granting them one wish it would create a Soul Gem as its price for it. Kyubey may not spell it directly, but even with this subtle information, anyone smart enough would be able to conclude that someone's soul would be ripped to create that magical gem (at least on Kyubey's mind). In other words, Kyubey did warn and informed the girls about how Soul Gems are created, they were just not clever enough to decipher that information. <br />
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Before we end this section I would like to address a criticism regarding an issue that none of the girls who contracted by Kyubey wished to become Witches. It is true that no mahou shoujo wants to become a witch. But let us examine Kyubey's language when it asks many of those girls if they would like to make a contract. When Kyubey asks Madoka if she would like to become a mahou shoujo, what Kyubey is actually asking is if Madoka would like to stop being human. Remember, what is a mahou shoujo? They are girls who can use magic, their healing abilities and strengths are faster and superior to humans, and it is suspected if their bodies were damaged they could be replaced (this is the closest to immortality they would ever get). Now, what is to be human? It is certain it is none of what I stated previously. Humans can't do magic, they dont heal fast, and they dont have replacing body parts when they are mangled horribly. When Kyoko was angry and told Kyubey that it changed them into zombies. Kyubey's answered that it was the only way that they could become a mahou shoujo, that there would be no other way to achieve the same such results or be able to use magic effectively. For safety and efficiency reasons their souls are turn into soul gems so a mahou shoujo can do their job more effectively, making them invincible and giving them better odds to survive a battle against a Witch. Isn't that nice from Kyubey? After all, it is looking after the best interest of the girls. It would be just as crueler to send weak human girls to fight against witches, in a way the Soul Gem process is much more "humane". Kyubey would also explain that the process of becoming a Witch is just an unfortunate effect of the mahou shoujo process. If they dont want to become Witches all they have to do is not taint their souls too much. Yet, never the least, the girls accepted the risk by making a contract and becoming a mahou shoujo. And with that comes the risks of the job. <br />
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===Bentham, the true monster. Mill, impractical idealism.===<br />
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After studying and reviewing the information, we can conclude without a doubt that Kyubey faithfully follows a Utilitarian philosophy. But it is also clear to mention that Kyubey's utilitarianism seems to be a mixture blend of Bentham's and Mill's thinking. Sometimes Kyubey would swing to one formula of utility and then swing back when it is convenient to do so. But it remains mostly on Mill's side most of the time, with the exception of when the whole planet is devastated. One could presume to suggest that Kyubey's thinking is not "The End Justifies the Means" as much as "Using Mill's Means to attain Bentham's End". Let me be the first say that Kyubey's Utilitarianism shares some similar values to Bentham and Mill. However, because Kyubey doesn't follow one principle of utility but a different version, we have to then assume that it is neither and both for two reasons. First, Kyubey is restrained by the rules that the alien race has laid on him. If Kyubey believed Bentham's utility wholly, it would disregard their rules and force Madoka into a contract regardless of her will or the rules itself. Instead, Kyubey tries to remain within the parameters and at the same time achieve the goals given to it. Second, if Kyubey had any respect for Mill's notion of Utilitarianism, then Kyubey has failed. Mill ideal version of utility is that with time the values of Utilitarianism would create progressive thinking and moral decisions based on utility that would allow the delivery of the greatest good. If Kyubey tried to follow Mill's ideal version of Utility, then he would be the less productive Incubator in the whole Universe; at that rate the end of the universe would be guaranteed. But it isn't so much as Kyubey failed Mill as Mill failed Kyubey. The problem with Mill's thinking is that it tries to maintain the principles of utility and the moral values of individual liberty at the same time. Critics have blasted Mill's utility as being naive and contradictory to Utilitarianism, some would suggest that Mill's formula violates the principle of Utility all together. Mill has proven that it can humanize utilitarianism when it adds a moral ideal of human dignity into the formula, but those ideals are independent of utility itself. Mill's formula would never achieve the greatest good that reflects the highest virtue of human value as long as it tries to maintain it within the realm of utility.<br />
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Since Kyubey is from a very advance alien race, I have to assume Kyubey's utility shares similarities to our own understanding of Utility, but at the same time it is also unique because it transcends Bentham's and Mill's thinking, thus making it into a third form of Utilitarian thinking that shares some of their values but for a different end than Bentham or Mill would conclude. This is, of course, speculation.<br />
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It is very clear that many critics and detractors have accused Kyubey of being evil, a liar, and a manipulator for good measure. But I would like to point out that they have failed to understand Kyubey and his own way of thinking to demonstrate why Kyubey is wrong. Their views have been mostly on the human side of the issue. Failing to see it from Kyubey's perspective to understand Kyubey. We have to remember that it is not easy to judge an alien race that we know little about, not even their moral values, but for the sake of argument we have to at least try. According to Homura, she doesn't think Kyubey thinks itself to be evil or cruel, she believes Kyubey just have a different perspective regarding morality so it fails to understand human values. However, that doesn't mean Homura trust Kyubey or believes she can reason with it. But let us be clear, by understanding Kyubey's utilitarianism I am not trying to justify its action. Instead, I am trying to comprehend Kyubey's point of view and perspective. What I have learned from Kyubey's point of view is that the issues regarding if Kyubey is evil or not is moot. What we should be concerned is the way Kyubey sees the world, which is much more disturbing and terrifying, and the worst part is that people who think the same way as Kyubey don't think that they are evil either or that they are doing anything wrong. <br />
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===Kyubey: CEO of Entropy, INC.===<br />
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If I had to describe Kyubey from any organism from our world, I would say that no organism exist that is similar to Kyubey. The closest we have is a human being. But even at that it would fail to describe Kyubey accurately, because Kyubey shares many differences than similarities with humans. Just like humans, Kyubey demonstrates high intelligence and faculties similar to humans, but unlike humans it lacks emotions; it cannot die but instead spawn new bodies; and is able to grant abilities that itself cannot exercise or posses, humans could only dream of having such abilities.<br />
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So instead, rather than imagine Kyubey from any known living organism I would like to think Kyubey is similar to a non-living entity that is not just similar to Kyubey, but it paints a perfect picture of what Kyubey is. This non-living entity seems to follow Kyubey's philosophy regarding utilitarianism that is neither Bentham's or Mill's version. It uses Mill's means to attain Bentham's ends. Like Kyubey, it also has a goal to maximize utility for its own advantage. <br />
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Let us remember, an alien race created an artificial entity that is highly intelligent with no emotions, these aliens bestowed upon Kyubey certain abilities and limitations but also parameters known as "rules". Kyubey is assigned with a very simple mission and duty: follow the rules stated by the alien race (it cannot force humans into a contract. It also means it cannot also lie but it is allowed the flexibility to limit his information as long as it is truthful), maximize the collection of energy to repair the universe without violating the given parameters, and protect the girls until they reach to their maximum potential. Now, let us imagine that Kyubey is not an artificial organism created by an alien race, let us think of Kyubey as a Corporation created by a group of business people. "Kyubey", as the company is known, has a business mandate: follow the national and international laws regarding trade and finances set up by an entity known as "the government". "Kyubey" as a company is not allowed to exercise illegal activities, but the laws are flexible and deregulated enough to allow for a company to pursue interests that would benefit a free market society in a very competitive enviroment, if it wishes to survive it would take advantage of the loosened rules (in other words, as long as it is withing the boundaries of the law and it is not illegal, the company is protected from liability); and "Kyubey" must maximize company profits in order to not only benefit shareholders but to also avoid a bankruptcy or being taken over by the competition. "Kyubey" believes its existence is essential for the survival of the market/financial economy (so think of the universe as a large financial consortium). Without Corporations there is no free market or capitalism, and without Incubators you can say goodbye to the universe. <br />
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I am certain some of you would think that I am overreaching with my thinking but let us just assume that my assertion is possible for the moment. One day "Kyubey" is taken to court and it stands accused of several crimes. The proceedings state that the company has violated several laws and disregarded the rights of their employees. The first criminal accusation would be false advertisement and failure to disclose information. Sayaka, the accuser, would declare that she would have never made a contract if she had known that her soul would be ripped from her body and that she would become a witch. As stated before, what Sayaka calls false advertisement, Kyubey would defend himself by stating that Sayaka failed to "read between the lines" and if she didn't understand the conditions of the contract she should have contacted a lawyer of her own. The other issue regarding becoming a Witch, "Kyubey" would explain that Sayaka had more than enough information to make an educated decision regarding the risks of the job. According with the company, Sayaka knew the risks of becoming a mahou shoujo, what happens after the facts (or in this case, death) bears no consequence, nor does it make any difference regarding occupational hazard and safety (in other words, knowing that Sayaka would become a Witch during her period of employment would not have prevented her from becoming one). Not to mention it would be reckless endangerment to send weak little girls against witches; so the company has a policy regarding safety and health to protect their employees against hazards, ergo they rip their souls to make soul gems to minimize pain and increase their magical powers. What kind of employee sues a company for trying to reduce occupational hazards? Isn't Sayaka being ungrateful? <br />
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And regarding Sayaka's objection to her "uninformed" consent. As an example, let us say that "Kyubey" is a weapons manufacturing company and they employed Sayaka to create missiles. Sayaka knows what missiles are and that they are used during military campaigns. However, Sayaka believes that the missiles would only be used to kill evil people. One day she learns that one of the missiles she helped to construct was used to blow up a building that was suspected to house enemy combatants but instead it killed innocent civilians. While it is true that "Kyubey" sold the missile to the military for the purpose of warfare. There is no way that the company could have predicted that it would be used to cause innocent casualties; the company is aware of the possibility of such scenario. But we have to remember that this future event or circumstance is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty. According to "Kyubey", becoming a witch is not a certaintity but just a possible outcome. And in any case, "Witchification" is no different than death. So knowing or not knowing, for the sake of safety and health on Sayaka's part, makes no difference. The job still comes with the same risks, anyway. Nothing has changed.<br />
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But "Kyubey" would state that divulging sensitive information regarding "company secrets" would be detrimental for company morale. In fact, by not divulging sensitive information that would be a hindrance for employees to maximize their potentials, the company and employees like Sayaka would be able to achieve their potential without any unnecessary distractions. By knowing sensitive information, employees like Sayaka would lose focus and increase the potential of creating a hostile environment. <br />
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As one final act, "Kyubey" would state that as a company it has a responsibility to their shareholders by maximizing its profits. People may question a company's policy and its methods of obtaining profits, but as long as no legal laws have been broken then no crime has been committed. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" would state that as a company they are obligated to make no exceptions nor reverse their company policy just because a mahou shoujo feels like what they are doing is wrong. After all, "Kyubey" is a company not a charity. It is true that Kyubey does provide an exchange for products and services, so it is not "free", there is a price for it. If Kyubey were to grant wishes for free (without collecting souls or despair energy), not only there would be a quick depletion of energy, but their company would go bankrupt. The reason Kyubey collects souls is that they need them to create more despair energy, the more despair energy Kyubey creates, the safer the universe becomes. And the more energy Kyubey has on reserve, the more energy they can use to be reinvested to hire new and more mahou shoujo. So, Kyubey as an industry does not only provide products and services, but as a company they are also protecting the universe and reinvesting their energy to provide wishes and employment to more girls. It is true that "Kyubey" is polluting their cities with curses, familiars, and witches that are detrimental to humans. But can anyone point out to any company that has never produced toxic waste (or even just normal waste) during its lifetime? And what about the benefits that many girls have obtainted? Girls like Mami were given a second life, otherwise she would be dead. Kyouko was able to avoid destitution and hunger thanks to her wish. And even Sayaka was able to get the opportunity to heal a friend. Can anyone complain that Kyubey's services are not essential to the community and society? Kyubey as a company has saved lives, provided food and housing opportunity for the destitute, and healed incurable diseases and physical disabilities; making society and the human race more productive, safer from [[wikipedia:Heat_death_of_the_universe|death heat]], and better in the long run. <br />
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And as a business, the company has an obligation to be financially sound. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" is an important member of the community. After all, society and the whole human race have profited from Kyubey's products, and services. Kyubey's presence on Earth is essential for human progress. Without Kyubey's interference, humanity would never have achieved and advanced in the areas of art, culture, history, medicine, philosophy, science, technology, and other progresses. In fact, without Kyubey, humans would still be naked and living in caves. Before anyone can accuse the company of being selfish and greedy, perhaps humanity should asks themselves if they are in any better position to be self-righteous against the company after benefiting from so much? Specially, since all of human progress is thanks to the sacrifice and despair of innocent little girls.<br />
<br />
===Why is Kyubey wrong.===<br />
<blockquote>''"If you ever feel like dying for this universe, just call us."'' ~ Kyubey, [[Episode 9]].</blockquote><br />
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I would like to add one last comparison regarding Kyubey as a corporation and the philosophy of utility. As I have stated before, Kyubey used Mill's means to attain Bentham's end. What I mean is that a Corporation would try to stay within the boundaries of the law to maximize its profit and size, but it would also use Kyubey's method to eliminate its competition and achieve Bentham's end, which would be either be the elimination of all competition or achieving a total monopoly on the market. After all, the purpose of a company is to prolong its existence and to promote the idea that without them there is no free market. Just like Kyubey wants to prolong the existence of the universe and without Incubators there is no one to stop the end of the universe. But as we have observed, Kyubey's approach and solution is quite unnerving. Specially when we are asked to accept the suffering of little girls as a form of payment to enjoy the fruits of past labors and sufferings. But I would like to add one last thought. One of the reasons that utilitarianism has it critics is its attempt to use market values to achieve a noble and moral choice. This is not just reserved only to corporations; [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost%E2%80%93benefit_analysis government entities] and individuals attempt to do the same everyday[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2Rq4HJBxw&feature=relmfu]. Not only does utilitarianism fails in its noble and moral goal, but during the process we have probably noticed that humanity and the human soul has been reduced as a form of currency. Think about it, Kyubey would not accept no other form of payment but a human soul, something that it is considered to be sacred and holy (depending on your beliefs). Now suddenly, this alien creature decides that humans souls are no different than commodities to be traded. This utilitarian attempt to reduce all and everything as a commodity, including a human soul and the right of sale of it, is a degradation of our humanity that is being packaged as goods. It loses its moral value and dignity in the marketing process.<ref>''"Certain modes of valuation are appropriate to certain goods and practices. In the case of commodities, such as cars and toasters, the proper way of valuing them is to use them, or to make them and sell them for profit. But it's a mistake to treat all things as if they were commodities. It would be wrong, for example, to treat human beings as commodities, mere things to be bought and sold. That's because human beings are persons worthy of respect, not objects to be used. Respect and use are two different modes of valuation."'' Michael Sandel, "Justice" (pg 96).</ref> This causes us to rethink what makes us human and the values we hold as a civilized society. The reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is not that it is evil; the reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is what it represents. If a human soul can be reduced as a mere currency, or resource, or commodity ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IojqOMWTgv8&feature=related or a battery]), and we are willing to emulate Kyubey's methods and values, then we as humans have failed to realized and recognized our own dignity and value within ourselves. Because Kyubey may be an alien from a different world, but its values are no different from ours once we close examine it.<br />
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===Closing===<br />
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I would like to reiterate that this is my personal interpretation and opinion regarding Kyubey's utilitarianism and its moral values. This is not an attempt to put words on the creators of the anime series but an attempt to grasp a better understanding of it. I have used resources like the anime series, interviews, and Michael Sandel's book "Justice" to attain a better comprehension and analysis of the Kyubey character. The views of this essay are my own --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 11:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
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<b>Notes:</b><br />
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<references/><br />
<br />
===In Opposition===<br />
<br />
The above is well written, but suffers a single, but overwhelming, flaw. As I'm not a philosopher, please bear with me, but I believe my words hold merit. The main flaw of the above article is simple: Kyubey, himself, claims to not feel emotions, and is purely logical. However, Utilitarianism is the maximisation of happiness, and the minimisation of grief, which is the opposite of Kyubey's nature - he lacks the ability to feel either happiness or grief, and as such, does not care about it whatsoever. However, he does desire to live, the most basic of all instincts. As a being that possesses only logic and the desire to survive, all of it's efforts are devoted to a logical way of living as long as physically possible. Logically, this survival would be given the priority of the survival of it's own species, survival of itself, survival of those of it's own species, the survival of prey species, and, finally, the survival of strategically advantageous (i.e., allied) species. <br />
<br />
If it's environment is reaching a physical limit to support it's existence, it acts to counter this, whether by increasing it's environment's parameters or limiting those factors acting against it. In the case of a population crisis, this would be finding more suitable ground in which to survive, or culling off competitor species, or, in an extreme case, members of it's own species. Taken to the most extreme level, that the universe is going to end eventually, even if that event is several hundred times further in the future than it's own species has lived thus far, then action must be taken to prevent or limit this collapse, so long as no more pressing matters exist. Regardless of the actual need to lengthen the life span of the universe, this is what an otherwise unoccupied, emotionless, logical species would do, and it is where the plot of the series is derived. On a similar extrapolation, Kyubey's race have conquered personal death - they can move themselves into a spare body, should they die. That, too, is an example of their attempt to control death on any level possible for them.<br />
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As a logical species, Kyubey chooses actions based on mathematics. The Probability of something happening, and the Effort needed to achieve it - that is, the result of Work and Time - and the ultimate result are the core components of it's decisions. As Kyubey lacks emotions, specifically, shame and guilt, it sees no need to gain consent if it does not need it. That Kyubey does attempt to gain consent suggests that either it does need it, or that gaining consent is easier than utilising brute force upon the issue - as it is their soul, they may respond in a negative manner by pure subconscious instinct, though this is entirely speculation. However, Kyubey does not put excessive effort into making certain that it's contractors are aware of the situation that they are being put into. Kyubey is perfectly aware that it is supplying minimalist information. Logically, Sayaka or Madoka or Mami should think things through and ask for more information, as Kyubey would do. However, the terminology is intentionally misleading. The term "Soul Gem" is given in English, despite his audience being 13 year old Japanese girls. When a young Japanese person, with English being a secondary language, at best, hears the word "soul", they do not connect it to the Japanese word "Tamashii", but to pop culture, and the use of the English word as flavour text to imply a certain spirituality, especially with spirituality being a low priority subject for a classroom lesson. This goes double with magical girls, which commonly use word choices which have very little to do with the purpose of an item. For example, in Sailor Moon, there are the Witches 5, who are part of the Death Busters, and one of them has a "Fire Buster". However, there's actually 6 Witches, the Death Busters do very little busting of death, and the Fire Buster is a flame thrower, not a fire-fighting tool. Similarly, it's suggested by Kyubey that "Witch" is derived from the characters for "Magical Girl", but even to the Japanese, this is elusive, as it's considered that "Evil" (Ma) and "Magical" (Mahou) are two entirely different words, despite the character for the former being used as part of the latter. Such cases are not unusual in the Japanese language. Thus, Kyubey intentionally uses a language choice which suggests the circumstances as they are, but phrased in a way that requires fairly extensive fact checking to be certain of what's going on, in the typical manner of someone who believes themselves very intelligent. In addition, keeping the truth of the matter quite can be very helpful, as Kyubey's purpose is to instil grief upon his contractors. Usually, this takes care of itself, but if necessary, it could make a useful catalyst - for example, in the case of Mami, who seems quite stable, and seems unlikely to transform without this being pointed out to her.<br />
<br />
As for Kyoko, the probability of Kyoko ever bearing fruit may be slim, and Kyubey is not greedy. Perhaps the evolved Familiars provide as much grief as a magical girl, but at the least, it's providing that at a 5:1 ratio of kills to magical girls, in a situation where Kyoko herself is unnecessary, as a more fragile, incompetent and/or single-minded girl could be contracted to take her place. If the transformation process of Magical Girl to Witch is necessary to gather energy, then Kyoko - who is ruthless enough to avoid spending too much magical power and cold enough to survive her father's mass-murder-suicide with no transformation - will provide dividends at an extremely low probability. By supplying the most minimal level of information - or, rather, a succinct but accurate level of information, which is perfectly logical when dealing with a species with such a small communications bandwidth such as humanity - a situation in which four possibilities arises. 1) The death of Kyoko, creating a higher probability of the high-dividend, average-probability Madoka contracting. 2) Kyoko's success, resulting in Sayaka returning to normal, paving the way for an infinitely regenerating energy source. 3) Kyoko's failure, which does not positively or negatively affect Kyubey in any significant way. And 4) Kyoko's failure, followed by her transformation into a Witch, finally returning dividends on a long term investment. None of these significantly impact Kyubey in any negative manner at all, given the information on hand. Thus, Kyoko's attempt to confront Oktavia is desirable to him, and should not be prevented.<br />
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I'd like to leave it here for now. As I said at the beginning, it's my opinion that all of Kyubey's actions can be explained by the desire to live, without any messy morality being involved in the process, and I've provided several examples for this, which I believe are more logically explained, and more fully intertwined with canon statements, than my predecessor's. [[User:MrSP|MrSP]] 14:16, 4 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::The problem that I see is the desire to live or self preservation, an instinct, is an emotion by itself. Self-preservation is a desire to live, which sounds very "emotional". Let us say that logic indicates that what Kyubey is doing is only buying them time, that it wont stop the ultimate fate of the universe, their actions and their probability of success depends on the possibility that they will overcome entropy by harvesting enough energy. If the odds were on their favor then their acts are logical, if it is against their favor then it is illogical. Considering how Kyubey was trying so hard in getting Madoka it seems to indicate that Kyubey was getting "greedy" (for lack of a better term) and willing to sacrifice a whole planet for a short term gain (of course, I am guessing...). If this is correct then their quotas must be lacking and they may require some adjustments to maximize their energy yield. Yet as we saw Kyubey seems to have rules to follow, albeit he does bend them to his favor. If Kyubey is desperate to overcome entropy it would be much more easier just to follow a "slash and burn" policy and be damned about it. Of course, as you pointed out perhaps this method wont yield enough results, yet if we consider the size of the human population or even of the entire galaxy, even if one forced soul doesnt yield alot of energy, it may add up by the accumulative effect. Of course this is speculation. But the other issue is that we have to consider the possibility that even a civilization like Kyubey must be bounded by rules to live by, no matter how logical they are. The foundation of every civilization or society is to establish laws and rules, why? to minimize chaos and disorder so it doesn't collapse. Such a civilization would require a body politic to establish an extensive network, energy quotas, suggestions how to gather efficient energy, planetary exploration, etc, it needs an institution to run things properly. It also minimizes conflict with other groups or more advance civilizations. I wouldnt be surprised if there are other more advance alien races out there, and some of these organizations have imposed rules on Kyubey's civilization to make the whole process "more fair" and turn a blind eye at the same time and pretend everything is alright... Of course, speculation. We have no choice but to work as much as we can within the framework... And as for equating happiness with emotions. Now remember, Utilitarianism fails to grasp or define what "happiness" means or is to individuals or to society. When I say "happiness", I do not mean on the emotional joyful level, but what I mean in what it can maximize what would be beneficial to society as a whole (or at least to the most fortunate of the group), on in Kyubey's case the universe. While Kyubey doesnt have emotions, they do seek to maximize the lifespan of the universe itself, that would be their "happiness" for a lack of a better term, at the expense of the "suffering" of lesser groups or few planets. We can change "happiness" to "profit" or even to "energy" etc... it doesnt change much of the concept, just the definition but the aim is the same: maximize something at the cost of minimizing something else. IF Kyubey is driven by self preservation as you just suggested, then we have consider the possibility that not only can they feel emotion, but they are being selfish by imposing their rules and beliefs on others and disguise it as "logic". But what if they are not being selfish, just logical and what if their logic just happens to arrive and align to their own self interest and the interest of "others"? Help the universe survive and at the same time allow other worlds, not just their own, to benefit from it? This justification would be enough to convince even the most logical that what they are doing has long term benefits for the majority, at the expense of the minority. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 15:50, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::I would like to also point out that Bentham's utilitarianism tries to divorce morality to justify an action that is beneficial to a group or society, a reason why it has its critics because it tries to discard the messy morality. However, there are unusual discrepancies in Kyubey's action, remember it has always been pointed out as being utilitarian, yet its version seems to differ as it tries to combine both Bentam's and Mill's and it is difficult to explain it without any further details, which is why we speculate. All I can do is trying to find a reason for this transition or discrepancy. However, to me it is not good enough to say that Kyubey's actions are driven by self-preservation that lacks any emotion behind it, if there is any logic behind their actions then we have to see it beyond just "self-preservation" and make a logical argument about it that justifies it... a drive for self-preservation is not just an attempt for the continuation of an species, but it also implies a fear of death. Do kyubey's race fears death? I dont know, but they clearly dont want the universe to end and they see a logic to prologue their existence... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 16:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Kyoko, Puella Magi, and Libertarianism ==<br />
At first I disliked the character of Kyoko because she was so unlike Mami and Sayaka, but then she wormed her way into my heart and looking at the character as a whole one can appreciate her character on its own. I will try to work withing the principle [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw4l1w0rkjs&feature=relmfu philosophy of libertarianism] to try to understand her character to better appreciate her, but also demonstrate why the character of Kyoko could be destructive to society as a whole. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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As always, this will take a while... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
<b>Libertarianism: an assertion to freedom</b><br />
<br />
<b>John Locke: Life, liberty and the pursuit of wishes</b><br />
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<b>My Soul Gem, My Choice</b><br />
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<b>A Free Market Solution for a Puella Magi Problem</b><br />
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<b>The Puella Magi Cartel</b><br />
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<b>Puella Magi: Girls of Justice or Magical Mercenaries?</b><br />
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<b>Happiness does not equate freedom. Freedom does not equate happiness.</b><br />
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<s><b>Puellae Magi: a PR Illusion and the Issue of False Interpretation.</b></s></div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Community:Philosophical_Observations&diff=45139Community:Philosophical Observations2012-08-19T07:42:38Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>Moving Philosophical essays and observations to this page --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 05:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Keep in mind, this is only speculation and observation. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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==Madoka and Minding her Motive==<br />
<blockquote>-''"Why is mom working so hard for a company that she never dreamed of working with?" <br>"Hmmm... Mom doesnt like working, she likes working hard. There are a lot of things that she doesn't like about it, but she likes the feeling of satisfaction she gets when she overcomes those obstacles, those achivements are precious to her. It doesn't mean that she dreamed to work for that company. But Mom is living her ideal life, and some dreams come true this way."<br>- "so you make how you live into your dream?"'' ~ Madoka and her father. [[Episode 3]]</blockquote><br />
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During the series we notice that Madoka cant never make up her mind when it comes to making a decision, if she will make a wish or not. All she seems to be doing is stalling, crying, and blaming herself for being so weak. But is that really what is happening? It is true, Madoka feels weak and small, powerless to do anything for anyone. She knows that by becoming a Puella Magi that feeling of worthlessness within her would change. But she is also afraid of dying or worst, becoming a witch, a monster that could destroy her world and hurt even her family. Madoka feels trapped, she feels like she has no choice. But there is also something happening behind her mind as well. Before Madoka can take any action, she needs to understand herself.<br />
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The intellectual philosopher Kant states that ''"If all human beings are worthy of respect, regardless of who they are or where they live, then it's wrong to treat them as mere instruments of the collective happiness."'' To Kant, utilitarianism (and Kyubey) is not only immoral but incorrect. One example is the shopkeeper: ''"A child goes to the store and buys a loaf of bread. The grocer could overchage the kid, charge him more than the usual price for a loaf of bread and the child would never know. But the grocer realizes that if his customers discovered that he took advantage of a child, word might spread out and hurt his business. For this reason, he decides not to overcharge the kid. So he charges him the usual price. So the shopkeeper does the right thing, but for the wrong reason. The only reason he deals honestly with the child is to protect his reputation. The shopkeeper acts honestly only for the sake of self interest; the shopkeeper's action lacks moral worth."'' To Kant, what matters is the quaility of the will, the character of the motive."[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rv-4aUbZxQ&feature=BFa&list=SP30C13C91CFFEFEA6&index=6]<br />
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This example works the same way with Sayaka. Sayaka made a contract with Kyubey to heal Kyosuke. Superficially it seems like a selfless noble act to help a friend. But that is not Sayaka's true motive, regardless of whatever she says to defend her actions. Sayaka's true motive is that if Kyosuke is healed, he would not only get better but he would also fall in love with Sayaka for her sacrifice. But that wasn't Sayaka's wish nor that is what happened. And because Sayaka's wish went unfulfilled she felt into despair, not because she was selfish but because she failed to recognize her real motive behind her wish. Not only that but she used the act of healing Kyosuke as a way to earn Kyosuke's love as a form of reward to be expected from her sacrifice. Sayaka violated her own rights as an attempt to gain something in return, and she never consulted with Kyosuke if he would ever accept such deal (nor is he under any obligation to do so; and if Sayaka tried to force Kyosuke under such deal she would be violating his rights as well, since he never gave consent). In essence Sayaka is expecting a reward or a payment for her sacrifice. <br />
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We need to understand Madoka's true motives regarding in becoming a Puella Magi prior to [[Episode 11]] and her refusal during the series. It is easy to see why Madoka would refuse to make a wish, it means death (or a fate worst than death) so any rational person would refuse (as we saw during her conversation with Homura in [[Episode 4]]). But if that is the case then why is Madoka kept tempted to make a wish? This is where motive is important. In [[Episode 8]] Sayaka has a fight with Madoka, this leads to Madoka to blame herself for being weak and terrified of helping her friend. Madoka hates herself for this. Now at first it seems like Madoka is regretting her lack of action and she is tempted to make a wish to help and save Sayaka from her suffering, but this is not so. Madoka's motive is not to help Sayaka, instead she is afraid of being hated by Sayaka, a completely different understanding lacking the true nobility of friendship. There is another observation that is equally important, Madoka's scene with Kyubey in which he is trying to temp Madoka to make a wish. In this scene Kyubey is trying to convince Madoka that by making a wish she could become a god, he is trying to deceive Madoka into the belief that by becoming a powerful god she can fix everything. But what Kyubey doesnt tell her is that there are no guarantees nor he has any interest to fix anything. But let us look at Madoka's motive behind Kyubey's suggestion for her to become a powerful god. At first glance it seems like Madoka is willing to become a sacrifice to the universe so she can fix everything, save everyone. But is that Madoka's true motive? As before, Madoka's motive is not to fix everything for the good, but to fix the wrongs so she would stop suffering from the feelings of sorrow about herself and others (she wants to change Sayaka back to normal, perhaps as a way to atone her cowardly lack of action). It is during this scene that Madoka confesses to Kyubey that she always felt insignificant and useless. She felt that she would never be able to do anything for anyone to create happiness for others and for herself (a similar conversation took place with Homura in [[Drama CD 1|the drama CD ''"Memories of You"'']]). As you can see Madoka's intention at first seem noble but that is not her true motive; what we learn is that Madoka wishes she could be useful so she would stop being worthless (what Madoka desires is to stop feeling sorry about herself, she wants to avoid any more pain and suffering). Nothing has changed, Madoka continues to believe she is weak, that she is powerless, that if she fixes everything she can feel good about herself. If we watch the scene at first it seems like Kyubey is suggesting a noble sacrifice but in truth all Madoka wants to do is to end the suffering so she would stop her own suffering as well.<br />
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As the series progresses, Madoka's thoughts are slowly changing, specially in [[Episode 11]]. Madoka learns an important lesson from Kyubey, a history of sacrifice and how it has affected humanity. Madoka realizes that it is not about her anymore, it is about the people around her and the puellae magi that came before her. The sacrifices of those girls, their suffering, and how all mankind benefited from it. <br />
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Madoka has gained a lot of information that allows her to reflect about herself, and about others. Madoka's motives changes from "I want to stop being weak and feeling bad about myself" to "I want to save everyone, not to feel good about myself, but to stop the suffering and save everyone" and that "everyone" includes her family, her friends, and Homura. That's Madoka's true motive. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself (''"To act freely is not to choose the best means to a given end. It's to choose the end itself for its own sake"''). By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence. What Madoka is doing is trying to respect the humanity of others (and the puellae magi), she isnt using her own sacrifice to make herself good, she cast away that selfish idea ("being selfless for selfish reasons"). During her scene with her mother in [[Episode 11]] Madoka has finally grown up, she knows that what she is doing will hurt her family but she also knows that she is the only one who can save her family and her town from disaster. Not as a noble sacrifice, but as a moral duty as an adult. Madoka wants to do the right thing for the right reasons, she wants to stop the Puellae Magi's suffering, not to make Madoka powerful, not to make Madoka feel good about herself, but because she truly believes it is the right thing to do to stop the cycle of suffering. <br />
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Madoka's journey was long and painful and critics would like to say that Madoka was too indecisive. But I think the reason it was such a long journey for Madoka it's because Madoka was just being a typical teenage girl trying to figure out herself.<br />
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As a final note, the concert scene with Sayaka is an indicator of how much Madoka has grown. Madoka admits that she could have changed Sayaka's fate, but to do so she would have to stop her from making her wish, so instead she allows Sayaka's right to follow her decision. Sayaka agrees with Madoka's choice to respect her own decisions and the consequences that come with it (as they seem to be aware of the Law of Cycles). This indicates that Madoka respects the puellae magi's wishes and their choices, giving them the dignity and respect that Kyubey never gave them. Then when their time was over, Madoka would come and help them pass so their sacrifice wouldn't be in vain and their suffering would end quietly with no regrets. According with an interview with Urobuchi, this is [http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/pandoras-box-1-madoka-goes-terrorist/ Madoka's own way to acknowledge the magical girls' own hopes and wishes without negating them]. ''"Instead of living to chase after a dream as your goal, you should turn your way of living into your dream."''<br />
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:I never actually thought that reading someone else's philosophically-founded analysis could increase my understanding of an anime, but you've done it. This was very insightful for me. とっても素敵。[[User:Holycrap|Holycrap]] 21:16, 19 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I really think the characters in Madoka could be philosophically analyzed, Kyoko is one character I would like to try. I think there she has a mixture of extreme Libertarian philosophies within her character but my understanding of philosophy is limited. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree with Kant, but not with you. Sayaka is a selfless person with her own desire as well, but she helped Kyosuke not just because of her selfish desire, but also her good will. The problem of Sayaka is her compulsive personality, she forces herself to be a good person, while taking great damage(mental and physical) for other people, she ignores her own heart(In episode 9, what is written on the posters on the wall at the entrance of Octavia's barrier is a twisted form of "look at me", as mentioned by Yuuki Aoi in the commentary video). In a sense, this is very selfless, but you may also say her selflessness is fake because it's the "compulsive selflessness" and it is not the will of her true heart. However, still, Sayaka is basically a selfless person, it's wrong to interpret her as a selfish person, a selfless person is not a person without any selfish desires. <br />
:It is very wrong to interpret Madoka as a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:47, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I dont doubt she was selfless, but the purpose of this philosophical opinion is if Madoka was selfless for the right reasons or selfless for the wrong reason. I am not bashing Madoka, instead I believe Madoka overcomes her difficulty by doing self reflection. Remember, in all timelines Madoka always becomes a Witch. No matter what wish she makes, the wish would be twisted because of the logical nature of it (according with Kyubey). Instead, Madoka overcomes it by understanding the nature of the wish and understanding her own self. Self-reflection. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::What I said is that Madoka had never being a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, when I say "...she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed", I mean she's a true selfless person who's selfless for selfless reasons, and this has never changed. The thing that made Madoka see hope, and resonant with it, which turns her into her ultimate form, is the love of Homura(the spiral of love spins around the arrow of hope, supporting it, protecting it, making it powerful - another important metaphor; it is so beautiful and powerful, isn't it?), not a realization of that she had being selfless for selfish reasons, because she had never being.[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 22:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::::I dont doubt Madoka wants to be good and selfless, but I disagree with the idea she was wholly selfless. She was pure and innocent but not a saint. Madoka is the embodiment of innocence, childhood, and love. But Madoka is also a character who carries flaws like her lack of self-esteem or her inability to believe in herself from the very beginning (this is one reason many fans disliked her in the beginning. They dismissed her as lacking character and a coward, which I disagree). When Madoka cries or feels bad, that's a natural reaction from a child. Madoka stopped running away and crying in the end when she became a bit wiser and mature. We also saw that her idea of mahou shoujo in the begining was more in line with a typical magical girl shows and she wanted to emulate Mami's courage and strength without truly understanding how much Mami had to sacrifice. Once she learns and experiences her life difficulties, instead of running she faces it. Madoka is growing, evolving. If Madoka was selfless and pure since the beginning then there is no transformative element, there is no "change" and with that there is no true hope (for the rest of humanity or the Puella Magi). Madoka's transformation as a Witch is not a result of Madoka's corruption of her purity, it was Madoka's inability to see her own corruptive power. It is true that Homura's love for Madoka led to Madoka's transformative change. However, we have to remember that Madoka didn't develop deep feeling for Homura. Even Homura can see it in Episode 11 and states that their feeling are growing apart. Madoka only realizes Homura's feelings at the end of her evolved transformation. If you listen to Madoka's conversation, she states that she could not understand Homura until Madoka was able to see all of her previous versions and timelines. Only then Madoka could comprehend Homura in a deep manner. Even Urobuchi agrees with this, and that is why he calls it [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Shinjidai_no_Mixture_Magazine_BLACK_PAST "cruel"]. That doesn't mean that Madoka didn't care for Homura's safety in Episode 12, it just means that Madoka cared for the safety of everyone in town (including her family ) at that time. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::::Madoka is selfless at the beginning, but she couldn't see hope and resonant with it while facing the greatest darkness, until Homura's love making her powerful - that's the transformation, love makes her see, that desperation is unnecessary, no matter how strong the darkness is, it can always be shattered by the power of hope(which means the conservation of hope and desperation is not true, not matter how it seems to be, it is not. Or you can say the rule of Universe, which is the conservation of hope and desperation, has being changed. The two statements are equivalent). Madoka doesn't understand Homura consciously at the beginning, but her subconsciousness is transformed by her love without her realizing it(She could even feel the love but she doesn't know where it comes from. If her subconsciousness hasn't changed, why would she become more and more powerful? Since only the heart of a Puella magi determines her magical power). I don't know why you don't like the saying that Madoka became a witch because of her being corrupted, I think this is a good way to describe it. Madoka is not unable to see her own corruptive power, since in some timelines before she's being turned into a witch, she knew what is inside her is going to turn her into a witch.<br />
:::::I'm not saying Madoka is perfect at the beginning, but she's almost totally selfless, and she hasn't done anything selfless for selfish reasons until the moment she was turned into a witch--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 23:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You misunderstand, I am not saying that Sayaka's selflessness is fake, the problem with Sayaka is that she lacks self reflection. Sayaka only realized the meaning of being a magical girl in Episode 9, by then it was too late and she transformed into a witch. I believe what Sayaka did was noble, she was also stubborn and childish. In her heart she thought she was doing good, in reality all she did was hurt others, including Madoka. IF Sayaka had been more honest with her feelings and her motives, perhaps her wish would not have gone unfulfilled, but that's just assuming. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:Oh, wow. WOW. I know that I'm pretty late to the whole congratulatory party, Mutopis(?), but I gotta say, I REALLY loved your analysis of Madoka's character, which I completed this early morn. I think it helps settle, at least somewhat, one of the little enduring qualms about I've had the ending-- a qualm that I was actually thinking on earlier tonight-- even though I personally regard Madoka's as one of the absolute best anime endings I've seen. And that was just how drastically fast and life-altering Madoka's development seemed to be, from (literally and mentally) a 14 year old girl to a goddess-like figure with a wisdom that surely can't be comprehended by our living humanity. There wasn't a lot of breathing room for this development! It's not like how it was with Jesus Christ, who knew of his universal significance and the fate that awaited him and lived every day of his life as we know it in preparation for it. Why, it's not even like most stories centered on a Hero's Journey, where the hero knows that he or she matters in some big way or another for a majority or reasonably large portion of the story. BUT-- seeing you map out her characterization, her subtle demonstrations of kindness and maturity, and your reminder of the revelations/conversations Madoka's had in episode 6 and 11-- the "transformation" has definitely become easier to come to grips with; it doesn't seem as extremely sudden as it did before. (still fairly accelerated, though.) (Really, thanks for giving greater context to the dialogue/revelation in episode 11's content-- I have actually semi-purposefully limited my own exposure to both episodes 11 & 12, having only let myself go through whole episode viewings twice each despite having the whole series on VLC. It's probably some combination of not wanting to make myself cry more, not wanting the ending to lose meaning to me, and not wanting to come to grips that the story, until the third movie's contents are revealed, is really over and done.) [[User:Animerican-Redeemed|Animerican-Redeemed]] 09:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Kyubey and Utilitarianism ==<br />
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I am working on Kyubey's utilitarianism, this space is for a rough draft.<br />
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Urobuchi's view in energy conservation and connection to [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/SWITCH_2011-07_Vol.29_No.07 Kyubey's utilitarianism] [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Spa_Weekly!_2011-07-19 kyubey's belief] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 the overly romanticism of (good) reality (false perception) and good intentions with bad results of unhappiness] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 trade offs]. By the way I am reading Michael Sandel's book [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY "Justice"] and it is a good source of understanding philology. Will finish when I can. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I take it that the words below are your voice (and not an attempt at translation), right, Mutopis? I ask for purpose of response. ;) -- [[User:NS|preceding comment by NS]] 16:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I can confirm these are not Urobuchi's thoughts. --[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 16:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::This is a philosophical essay with my words, I use some comments and information from interviews and some material from the book "Justice" to interpret the anime series in a philosophical way. I am using the same method that I did with [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|Madoka and her motives]] to appreciate and get a better understanding. I want to see if Kyubey's utilitarianism is that simple or it is more complex than that, and why it seems justifiable (I am playing the devil's advocate), but more importantly to demonstrate that Kyubey is not evil, but just follows what he was created to do. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 20:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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*Guys, if you like to contribute or express an opinion about the essay, you are more than welcome. This is just a rough draft. I think I will be working on this for a while and I would like some opinions to make sure it remains consistent. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
*I hope no one has any problem with this essay being long. To tell you the truth I have no idea how long this will grow into. I am still working, rewriting, doing few changes here and there... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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** Thanks for your professional opinion. But there are too many changes a day, and that makes it troublesome to track changes. Isn't it better to write into a file in your computer first to reduce modification to the page? And I think it good to open a new topic talking about this. [[User:Yorkwoo|Yorkwoo]] 15:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Well, this looks interesting, but it seems a bit long for this talkpage. I think it might be better suited either as a subpage under your user namespace or as a proper article.--[[User:Knon|Knon]] 12:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I wanted to leave it here for those who wanted to understand the character of Kyubey. I dont know, an article page about philosophy?... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::A link to a new page would work just as well for those further interested in Kyubey. --[[User:Knon|Knon]] 04:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
* I did a lot of cleaning and polishing. If anyone wants to fix some spelling errors and such, you are more than welcome. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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===What is Utilitarianism?===<br />
<br />
The Human Philosophy known as [[wikipedia:Utilitarianism|utilitarianism]] can be easily breakdown as the philosophy that pursues the maximization of happiness and the reduction of pain, or at least the creation of happiness that surpasses the overall total of pain. If Kyubey's brand of utilitarianism was that simple there would be no need for this essay. But utilitarianism, like all brands of philosophy, have taken several different developments and each one has a distinctive flavor that requires recognition. This will be an attempt to understand Kyubey's own brand of Utilitarianism.<br />
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According with [[Episode 9|Kyubey's mission]], he wants to save the universe by offsetting the depletion of the universe's energy (actually, Kyubey's statement is wrong, the correct assessment would be to stop [[Thermodynamics|the permanent loss of heat]], but who am I to question an advance alien race?). To accomplish this mission Kyubey's alien race has found the answer to the problem, the harvesting of human emotion. The process is simply, give a human magical powers to maximize their sense of hope, then reverse their hope to be turned into despair, during the process the despair energy would be released during the witchfication process thus repairing the damage done to the universe. Repeat the process countless of times until an appropriate energy quota per planet is reached. Sounds simple yet horrifying at the same time. For many this is an example of utilitarianism as its worst, many critics believe that Kyubey is justifying the exploration of little girls to save the universe. However, before we can accuse Kyubey of anything, it is essential to understand the moral nature, as well as Kyubey's reasoning behind it, to determine if the reasoning is justifiable. <br />
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===Kyubey and Bentham: Let us just enslave the human race!===<br />
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Invaders from another galaxy have decided that to save the universe, they must harvest energy to repair the damage already done to it. Their race is incapable of producing such energy by themselves, but thanks to their advance technology they have detected a source of energy that is perfect to solve their crisis. They have detected a "bizarre" mental behavior known as "emotions" capable of producing the required energy but it goes unprocessed and it is localized in another galaxy. The inhabitants of this alien galaxy are equally strange as primitive, not only do they suffer from this mental anomaly known as emotions, but they are being wasteful by not fully developing its potential. Such a waste of energy would be a crime if left unharvested. The alien race decides to invade this galaxy, enslave the inhabitants, and fully exploit its potential by maximizing the production of energy to meet their quota... or so it should be if this was Bentham's brand of utilitarianism but it is not (at least not completely). This is the first indicator that there is something odd about Kyubey's utilitarianism.<br />
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According with Jeremy Bentham, the goal of Utilitarianism is to produce as much happiness as possible, regardless of the means. But most importantly, all forms of happiness and all form of pains have their own equal moral value (no pleasure is better or highest than the other). Which means one form of happiness cannot be measured against another form of happiness; the same can be said about pain. It takes people's preferences as they are without passing judgement on its moral worth. It would be presumptuous to judge some pleasures to be inherently better than others. At the heart of it, Bentham's utilitarianism is nonjudgmental, to him all pleasures are equal. The assumption is that by measuring and calculating the values of pleasure and pains into a formula, one can reach an agreeable moral choice that would promote the general welfare and happiness of the populace. Let us consider the issue at hand, the whole universe is going to be destroyed and all Kyubey is doing is extinguishing a few souls to preserve the general welfare and happiness of countless galaxies. Perhaps one whole planet would be annihilated in the process, but what is a few billion souls when you take into account billions and billions of worlds that would be saved. Some would object that exploiting and even killing human beings is immoral and wrong. Yet, Kyubey would point out that humans do it all the time to one another, and not only that but that they even do it against other lower life forms for their own selfish benefit. After all, aren't humans exploiting animals and other organism to feed their populace, to attain monetary gain, and maintain their civilization? (be it on the agricultural sector or for medical research or a source of cheap labor). Why should humans be given a preferential treatment? After all, maybe there are more advance and worthier alien species out there that deserves to be saved more than humans, and maybe that makes humans the lower life form. On this cold and calculating equation to save the universe one has to arrive to one simple conclusion. If saving the universe by exploiting the emotions of humans has the same moral value than domesticating cattle to feed society, then it should be reasonable to say that Bentham would not object to enslaving the human race to achieve Kyubey's objective. While one would object that it would be morally wrong to exploit humans, one would also have to argue that it would be equally morally wrong to allow the universe to be destroyed. In the utilitarian equation it would be better for one whole planet to suffer than the whole universe to collapse. After all, saving the universe at the expense of the human race would create the greatest form of happiness for the rest of the galaxy. It would suck for the human race, but stopping the end of the universe trumps anything and everything. And if you don't like what Kyubey is doing then too bad, the end justifies the means and the universe would be saved, like it or not. <br />
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Yet, as stated before, that is not the case here, at least partially. Apparently, Kyubey and the aliens have some sort of moral code of their own that disallow them to force humans to enter into a contract (slavery) but they are also not allowed to deceive (false advertisement) or lie to them either (this is, of course, up to debate). However, they do not seem to have any moral qualms regarding the harvesting of human emotions to save the galaxy, just the slavery part.<br />
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One objection to utilitarianism is the attempt to measure pleasure and pain in a single scale while ignoring the qualitative experience of pleasure and pain. For many, certain forms of pleasure are not only higher but also worthier than others. It is believed that the pursue of a nobler pleasure would allow utilitarianism to the arrival of the greatest good. One could make an argument that saving the universe would create happiness but that the quality of happiness would suffer at the expense of perverse methods used for to attain it. Instead, one could say that Kyubey is trying to create the greatest form of happiness by using much more nobler (albeit questionable) methods to attain it. Rather than force the human race into submission and slavery, why not entice them into a fair contract? <br />
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===Kyubey and Mill: Humans are not Cattle.===<br />
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One of the biggest flaws regarding Benthram's utilitarianism is that it doesn't give adequate recognition to human dignity and individual liberty. In its attempt to measure, aggregate, and calculate happiness in a nonjudgmental manner (democratizing all forms of pleasures equally) it eliminates the qualitative and unique moral value of pleasure and pain. What Bentham has done is reduce everything of moral importance to a single scale. John Stuart Mill tries to recalculate utilitarianism into a more humane and less calculating doctrine (a more human-friendly form of utilitarianism that is less prone to enslaving the human race) to achieve a munch nobler form of Utilitarianism that tries to promote the greatest good while recognizing the liberty of individuals. On Mill's ideal version of utilitarianism, as long as no one gets hurt and no one imposes their beliefs on others, then everyone is allowed to exercise their own free will and liberty to achieve the correct moral value that results in the greatest good.<br />
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Let us go back to our scenario regarding an alien race looking for a solution to save our universe. The aliens realized that the human race are the perfect source of emotional energy to be harvested to repair the damage already done to the universe. Kyubey's aliens know that humans are still primitive and prone to their own mental illness known as emotions. Why not put them to better use by enslaving them and harvesting all their energy? At least they would suffer for a noble cause. According with Mill this would be wrong for two reasons. One, it violates the liberty and rights of the human race and its individuals, no one should force them to be used as resources, no matter the cause. Second, the issue at stake here is that the noble idea to save the universe gets tainted because of the process that it is used to achieve the result. Why is this important? It could be damaging for the promotion of general welfare and happiness. Bentham would just suggest that "the end justifies the means" as long as the highest form of happiness is achieved. But Mill's issue is that such inhumane methods may create the greatest form of happiness today, but in the long run it could promote reckless behavior with devastating results. And who is to say that the human race wont try to overthrow their alien overlords to free themselves? Mill is trying to use utilitarian principles as an attempt to promote progressive behavior (the pursue of not the highest pleasure but the noble ones as well). <br />
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Let us take for example the danger of creating a Superwitch like [[Kriemhild Gretchen]]. We saw the devastating results that took place in [[Episode 10]] in which the Earth was destroyed along with all life on the planet. According with Kyubey the creation of Kriemhild Gretchen allowed Kyubey to meet its energy quota in the short run. Of course, this [[wikipedia:slash-and-burn|slash-and-burn]] method was very profitable for Kyubey but what about the loss of future energy collection now that the Earth is dead? No problem, Kyubey states that there are other planets to exploit and using its cold logic the benefits outweighed the risks. Let us assume that what Kyubey is probably saying is that Gretchen produced more energy in a single day than a lifetime collection from the Earth. Perhaps this single offset prevented the future despair of millions of girls; isn't that a better outcome? To reduce the despair of future victims? Not to mention Incubators are now much closer on saving the universe. If this is correct, then losing the planet Earth was an acceptable loss to attain a large reserve of despair energy (perhaps the largest in history), according to Bentham. But Mill would disagree, what about the consequences? What about the fact that this act stains the noble cause to save the universe?<br />
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Kriemhild Gretchen is a Superwitch, but apparently at the moment she is no threat to the galaxy. She may be powerful enough to kill one planet but she still small and powerless enough to be no threat to the alien race or to the whole galaxy for that matter. But let us say overtime she could be, perhaps with time she would find a way to travel to other planets and start growing. Wont this become an issue in the future? And what about the reckless behavior that it promoted? Wont there be a danger that other Incubators from other planets would like try to recreate the same scenario to meet their quota? Soon, it would not just be one planet, but perhaps a few docents and even more that are suddenly destroyed by a Superwitch. And who is to say that these Superwitches wont find a way to merge their powers and create a Super Walpurgis Night powerful enough to destroy the whole universe? Should Incubators take such chance? That is what could happen in the worst case scenario. Of course, this a fabricated scenario of a possible future event. No one knows what the consequences would be like after the destruction of the Earth. It could promote the accelerated process to end the whole galaxy, instead of saving it, but it is just as likely that it doesn't. But that is one dangerous scenario regarding utilitarianism that Mill would like to avoid. <br />
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So, what is Mill's advice for Kyubey regarding utility? Well, not slaving the human race for one. Which in fact that is what they did. As stated by Kyubey, it is against the rules to force humans to become a mahou shoujo against their will. It is their individual choice to decide if they want to become one. This would seem to indicate that Kyubey respects the rights of individuals rather than violate them. After all, Kyubey can be found promoting the Mahou Shoujo lifestyle without forcing anyone to join in, as it is per rules. But what about the recognition for human dignity? Isn't it implied that by harvesting and using humans as resources are they no better than cattle to be consumed? But Kyubey has already an answer for it. Let us not forget that Kyubey recognizes humans to be unique creatures with a noble goal and purpose, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey knows that humans are not lower life forms like cattle just to be harvested and consumed to save the universe, regardless of how humans treat each other or other lower lifeforms. Kyubey states that while it would be for the greater good to harvest human emotions, regardless how Madoka feels personally, at least Kyubey and the alien race took the effort to recognize their uniqueness. Of course, that seems like a nice speech but it still requires substance and evidence behind his words. One clear evidence is that if Kyubey thought humans were cattle then why bother with allowing humans to roam free? Why the rules regarding the respect of personal liberty and choice? We must also remember that as a sign of recognition regarding the uniqueness of humans, they are allowed one single wish in the transaction. Kyubey could easily steal their human soul but they are forbidden to do so. Kyubey states that is one reason why humans are allowed such honor for accepting a contract. While it is true that Kyubey is using humans as a resource, they are neither slave nor cattle, no one is forcing them to make a contract to join in. Instead, the mahou shoujo are like employees and they are given the opportunity and honor to sacrifice their own lives for a noble goal. Isn't that what a mahou shoujo is all about? Girls of justice and noble sacrifice to triumph over evil? It is not slavery if a mahou shoujo gives consent and it is not exploitation if they accept a wish as a form of payment.<br />
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However, there is a certain flaw regarding this argument that Kyubey is practicing a brand of Mill's utilitarianism, and that is that we are assuming that is what Kyubey is doing. First of all, as anyone who has watched the show, would have noticed that Kyubey's actions and behavior have been deceptive so far (Kyubey would disagree). Not to mention the fact that Kyubey concealed the true nature of witches and mahou shoujo from starry-eye naive girls. And who can forget the mess that resulted for the Earth in [[Episode 10]], and Kyubey's disregard for the well being of the planet's inhabitants. Was that Kyubey being cold and cruel? Or was Kyubey just accepting the hard facts as it were, and was there really nothing that Kyubey could have done about it? To Mill, he would be appalled; after all the goal of utilitarianism is to achieve not just happiness but to make sure that the practice of utility would retain long term results. The destruction of the Earth may be good for the survival of the universe, but Mill would not consider that to be an acceptable loss for the greater good if the rights of billions of humans are violated in the process. What about the adverse effect that it would produce? Couldn't this establish a terrible precedent for future energy collection processes and encourage bad immoral behavior through out the galaxy.<br />
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Such practice and behavior brings into question Kyubey's moral value and its sensibility, if it was being measured against human values. There lies a fundamental problem, we know nothing regarding this alien culture and their definition of morality (for all we know their doctrine is based on emotionless cold logic), but for the sake of argument let us assume that they do share our same view regarding morality. Can it be said that Kyubey's utilitarianism tries to remain faithful to either Bentham or Mill? Is it a mixture of it? Or perhaps it is neither and both, perhaps it is an unique form of utilitarianism? Or maybe the problem lies with Mill's utilitarianism, in which we are expecting Kyubey to live up to its principle ideally. But before that, we have to ask ourselves. Are we judging Kyubey unfairly? <br />
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===Let's Make a Deal: The Meaning of Consent.===<br />
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Let us explore the process in which one accepts a contract. One day a furry magical creature approaches you with the promise of making you into a magical girl and in exchange you get one wish. It sounds like a great bargain but you wonder if there is a trick to it. Of course, before you can accept the deal, the magical creature is obligated to disclose to you the dangers of becoming a magical girl. It informs you that you will be fighting witches, but you will be granted magical powers to defeat them. Sounds fair, right? What Kyubey is doing is offering you a product that sounds too good to be true, the creature discloses the terms of conditions (fight witches to gain more magic and to keep yourself alive) in exchange for the opportunity to attain any wish that you want (within the limits of karmatic energy availability). The process sounds simple and you do not suspect anything. After all, it seems that you are being recruited to hunt down evil Witches who are eating innocent humans, it sounds like a noble cause. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity that may never come up again (unless you are one of those girls who Kyubey decides to pester every opportunity to make a contract). You are swoon and tempted by the opportunity that you decide to accept the contract, perhaps you feel desperate enough to want your wish that you decide it is better than nothing. Then somehow you later learn that what you signed into was not what you expected, you are horrified to learn the truth behind the Puella Magi System that you want a way out to avoid your fate into becoming a Witch. But Kyubey refuses to do anything to reverse the process and tells you that you are under contractual obligation to fulfill your part of the bargain. It informs you that you are under no obligation to hunt down witches if you want, as it will accelerate the transformation process if you keep using your magic for anything else, but the process itself cannot be stopped. You accuse Kyubey of lying and the furry creature would refute your accusation by saying that it never lied and that you never ask for more details of what being a magical girl entails (in other words, you never read the fine print). But most importantly, Kyubey would maintain that since you consented to become a magical girl, you also consented with the terms and conditions of the contract that came with it: Fight witches until the moment of metamorphosis, in which the despair energy would be collected to repair the universe. Once a witch you would be freed from your contractual obligation and live the rest of your life as a witch until you are killed by another magical girl (of course, Kyubey wouldn't say it outright in the beginning. If Kyubey was a lawyer he would probably codified it in legalize to avoid annoying questions). But the point is clear, not only you gave consent to become a witch, but you failed to properly educate yourself with the consequences of becoming a Witch. In the end, the failure lies with you. Perhaps Kyubey should wear a [[wikipedia:Caveat_emptor|''"Caveat Emptor"'']] sign around his neck to warn would-be magical girls, but that would undermine Kyubey's purpose and Kyubey would declare that that would be unfair for the universe, as it would guarantee the destruction of all life, along with planet Earth in the near or far future.<br />
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Let us analyze what went wrong and determine who truly is at fault. First of all, what is consent? And once we learn the meaning of it. Does it meet the requirements to be declared consensual? Or did any girl who consented did not truly consented because it did not meet the requirements for it? <br />
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Consent refers to the provision of approval, particularly and especially after thoughtful consideration. To be considered a consent, means that the individuals gives acceptance to an agreement after making an inform decision. However, those who believe that Kyubey is deceitful would point out that any girls' consent is tainted because their informed decision lacked the adequate information to make a rational decision. Some would even go so far as to say that Kyubey used coercion to attain their consent during questionable situations. Therefore, critics would say it fails to meet the requirements for consent. If we consider Kyubey's practice to be deceitful and with the added element of coercion into it, it does bring into question wherever Kyubey's actions are valid and legal (if you could somehow take an alien to court to enforce Earth/national laws. But let us say that you can for the sake of argument). <br />
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First, the issue of coercion. One great example that we can use is [[Tomoe Mami]]'s case. Mami is a victim of a car crash accident (let us say for convenience that there is no foul play in part of Kyubey) and she is dying. The ambulance is on its way but it wont make it on time and Mami's body is already failing. Her body is mere minutes away from death and nothing can be done for her. Then suddenly, Kyubey appears and tells her that if she would like to make a contract. Kyubey informs Mami that it would grant her one wish and she would be fighting witches for the rest of her life. And she can make any wish she wants. This is a classic example of obtaining consent during duress. Mami has two choices to make, either accept Kyubey's contract and become a mahou shoujo or die. So she made her wish, she wished she could live (actually we dont know the actual wording of the wish, but it is assumed it had something to do with saving her life). Critics would say that Kyubey was being manipulative and unfair, that Mami's consent was tainted. The only way that Mami's consent would be valid, would be if Kyubey had approached Mami before the accident or if Kyubey had saved Mami's life first then ask her if she would like to make a contract with Kyubey. <br />
<br />
I would like to point out certain issues on this case. In accordance with utilitarianism (in which Mami chose the pleasure of living over the pain of dying), Mami benefited from Kyubey's contract and any complains she may have against Kyubey is invalid. After all, Mami wanted to not die and Kyubey wanted to get a contract from Mami. Both of them had something that the other wanted and in the exchange they both got it. Under that rationality it would be hardly unfair. Second, even if one considers Mami's consent to be tainted or coerced, their complain is invalid. After all, the idea of coercion would mean that someone's rights was violated. Unless someone can find evidence that Kyubey staged the accident, then maybe they would have a point, but it is not. There is also the issue that Kyubey obtained Mami's consent while dying. Critics like to point out that Kyubey should have saved Mami first, instead it was taking advantage of the situation. We have to remember, in the case of Kyubey we do not know what kind of magical powers Kyubey itself can use or do, Kyubey is simply part of the process to create and grant wishes. It's like saying "Why Kyubey cant wish itself to repair the universe?" Because it cant. For all that we know, approaching Mami with a contract was Kyubey's way of helping her. Let us assume that this is correct (a big assumption, I know) and Kyubey is a powerful yet powerless creature unless a wish is made. If this is correct, then there is nothing Kyubey could have done by itself other than grant wishes. If Kyubey is guilty of anything, is perhaps of taking advantage of a situation. Of course, critics would continue to question the issue of validity within Mami's consent, and whatever she was on her right mind to make such decision. But the fact remains that, regardless of the situation, Mami still gave consent to save her life and she benefited from her choice. Kyubey would like to point out that it doesn't matter in which situation Kyubey got her consent, the fact remains that in Mami's case if it hadn't approached her she would be dead, instead she got to live longer (just to be killed by a [[Charlotte|cheese eating Witch]]). If anything, Mami benefited the most from the situation (to Kyubey's point of view). And since a deal is a deal, it is hardly unfair as long as both party benefited. I would agree that the issue regarding consent in Mami's case is a bit murky and difficult to determine, because of the lack of proper information. However, since we are trying to determine a conclusion with the given information, this would be my own impression. According with Bentham, the issue regarding consent doesn't matter since an individual's right don't matter on the utilitarian equation, and since both parties benefited at the time, the deal was hardly unfair. For Mill, since Mami got to live longer and she avoided the pain of death, she got the greatest good in return. While it is true that the issue of consent is at the heart of the question, we have to assume that in Mill's equation, the desire to live and the want for self-preservation would outweigh her individual's right. Mill would agree that Mami's liberty must be preserved on the utilitarian equation, but when you are weighting the two rights of the same individual, which side has the greater value? On one side it is Mami's right to life, on the other it is Mami's right to be allowed to consent free of pressure, deception, and duress. But let us be clear, Kyubey did not create the situation that Mami was in, and also there was the issue of time. Given what was occurring, there is not enough evidence to find culpability with Kyubey at the moment of the accident. And since Mami's life was at risk, her right to life takes precedent. And Mill would also like to remind us that no one got hurt during the deal (it did more than that, it prevented someone from dying). The issue of Mami's right being violated is moot since Mami's rights were preserved by saving her life so she could continue to exercise those same rights. According to Mill, actions and consequences aren't the only issue, an individual's character also matters. If Mami were to die she would be deprived to exercise her rights and to develop her character as an individual. And what would be the worst precedent from this quandary? Kyubey appearing to every girl close to death and giving them the chance to save their own lives? Wouldn't that create the greatest happiness? And what if every girl Kyubey saves from death are like Mami, or even better? Wouldn't that be not just good for society but even better? (let us assume that Kyubey saves more girls like Mami than Kyouko on this contingent assumption). Mill would agree that protecting Mami's right is important for utility to preserve the general welfare. However, he would also agree that since the rights violated were inconsequential to society (and for Mami) and instead it promoted the greatest good with harm to no one, then it has served its purpose to serve the greatest good.<br />
<br />
Let us set aside Mami's case for now and let us examine the accusation of Kyubey's deception. Critics and detractors have objected to Kyubey's practices on attaining victims for his scam and they have accused Kyubey of lying to get its goal. As always, Kyubey would disagree with them. I don't have to tell you what Bentham's side would be regarding on lying, since he wouldn't see a problem with this as long as Kyubey's action maximizes happiness (eg: save the universe). But what about on Mill's side of utilitarianism? What would be Mill's view on lying be? <br />
<br />
===I cannot tell a lie, you will fail Kyoko.===<br />
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Let us picture this scenario. Kyubey is chasing down Madoka and it is seeking her location, it arrives to Homura's residency but before Homura gets to fill that furry alien with bullets, Kyubey asks if Homura has seen Madoka. Prior to Kyubey's arrival, Madoka has sought refuge within Homura's home and she is hiding. On this situation, Mill would say that lying is ok because it serves to the greater good, to protect a girl from Kyubey. To Mill, lying is ok as long as it saves lives and serves its purpose to create happiness. While lying is deceitful, it has some good uses. And as long as the lie harms no one, then there shouldn't be any problem. But what about when Kyubey uses lying to save the universe? Wouldn't that also be for the greatest good? No, it wouldn't be. Kyubey would have violated the liberty of individual girls by forcing them into contracts under false pretense, and by using falsehood and deception, Kyubey has tainted the utility and quality of the greater good. The problem with this assumption, is that it believes that Kyubey would lie, cheat, and steal to attain his goal when in facts it is the opposite. Let us first try to understand Kyubey's "deception" and determine if there is some ground for such accusation.<br />
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Observers would notice three things about Kyubey. Whenever it seeks a contract it would only give a basic information and minimal detail regarding what the job entails; when someone ask a question that could unravel the true nature of the Puella Magi System, Kyubey would try to give a satisfactory answer that doesn't divulge too much information; and sometimes when someone wants an honest answer from Kyubey, it would divulge answers that could be interpreted differently that, strictly speaking, could be misleading ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqzW0eHzDSQ&feature=relmfu a misleading truth]). The problem here is that none of this proves that Kyubey has ever lied. It is true that Kyubey has omitted information whenever it suited its purpose, it is also true that Kyubey divulged information with the prospect of influencing events to his favor, and that it tried to hide facts by being vague or evasive without being false. But, was Kyubey a liar? Was Kyubey maliciously deceiving girls for his advantage? In other words, there is a difference between being purposely deceitful and another is using misleading truths (without being false or lying) in the hope that it would be incorrectly interpreted on Kyubey's favor. <br />
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Let us start with Sayaka as an example. In [[Episode 2]], Sayaka asks Kyubey what are Witches and how are they any different from mahou shoujo. Kyubey's response was simple yet clever, if a mahou shoujo is born from wishes then witches are born from curses. So a mahou shoujo spreads hope while a Witch spreads despair. Nowhere in this sentence is Kyubey lying, technically Kyubey is not only telling the truth but it briefly gives a glimpse to the Puella Magi System. Of course, you have to read between the lines and be a bit clever to realize it but to anyone unfamiliar with the system, they wouldn't even give much of a second thought. At that moment if Sayaka had pressed further the issue, who knows how far could Kyubey could have avoided telling the whole truth. But sadly, Sayaka didn't. So in effect, as long as they fail to ask the right questions, it is not Kyubey's fault.<br />
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Let us look to another example regarding Kyubey's clever way to influence a situation by telling a misleading (but carefully prepared) truth. In [[Episode 9]], Kyoko asks Kyubey if there is a way to get Sayaka's Soul Gem back. Kyubey responds that it doesn't know of any known method. We all know that Kyubey is using a careful evasion not to divulge its opinion, but at the same time tries to divulge the truth. Kyoko not wanting to give up asks Kyubey if are there things that even Kyubey doesnt know. Kyubey replies that it doesn't know everything that there is to know. It acknowledges that the nature of magic defies logic and that it wouldn't be surprising if something absurd did came out of it (let us not forget, Kyubey makes the impossible possible). Kyoko takes Kyubey's response as acknowledging that there is a possibility for her hopes. However, that is a misleading truth. Kyubey does acknowledge that magic defies logic, that what Kyoko would try to attempt has never been tried before. But Kyubey also knows that what Kyoko is suggesting is impossible and would never succeed as it "defies logic"; and even if for some absurd miracle something did happen, the odds of it are astronomical. Of course, Kyubey doesn't tell her that directly, instead it uses misleading truths and facts to confuse Kyoko so she would reach to the wrong conclusion. If you read between the lines, Kyubey is saying that what Kyoko is attempting is foolish and impossible, but Kyubey also adds that magic belongs to the realm of the impossible and that its nature is not well understood (but I am certain that Kyubey is betting that logic would prevail). Whatever conclusion Kyoko ever arrives to, it is not Kyubey's fault. Since Kyubey would respond that it has only given her the information that she needed to reach to the right conclusion. If Kyoko misinterpreted Kyubey's information and instead got the wrong impression, then the fault lies with Kyoko. After all, Kyubey told her the truth and tries to neither encourage nor discourage Kyoko on her wrong conclusion. Kyubey does admit that it usually stops a pointless sacrifice (don't get the wrong idea, Kyubey just doesn't like to lose girls too early before their emotions can be harvested) but in this case it didn't stop her. According to Kyubey, losing Kyoko has a great advantage to further utility. Now, critics would point out that Kyubey killed Kyoko by not discouraging her to stop her foolish plan. It is true, Kyubey did not tried to stop her, instead it just allowed the situation to unfold itself. But here is what it gets tricky, according to Mill people have the freedom to do whatever they want as long as they are not hurting others ''"Government may not interfere with individual liberty in order to protect a person from himself, or to impose the majority's beliefs about how best to live"''("Justice", pg. 49). In essence, Kyubey was allowing Kyoko to exercise her right to recklessly endanger herself. Kyubey knows well the dangers ahead for Kyoko, but since it is Kyoko's right to get herself killed, why interfere? After all, Kyoko knows very well how dangerous it is to meddle with a Witch, she is a veteran mahou shoujo, so she already knows the risks already. If Kyoko wanted to risk her life for an impossible task, then that was her right and her freedom to do so. But let us say hypothetically, what if Kyoko knew what Kyuey was thinking and she still decided to take a gamble? What if Kyoko knew Kyubey was using misleading truths to get rid of her? Critics would say that Kyubey should had at least warn her and told her the truth of the matter. After all, Kyoko is stubborn and would do whatever she wants, no matter the objections. Here is what Mill's utility tell us. First of all, Kyubey has the right and liberty to discard and tell any information in any way it wants it to be, Kyubey can be directly honest and get to the point or deliver the truth in such a way that it could be misinterpreted (as long as Kyubey's words are truthful). Kyubey would also add that it did warn Kyoko on its own way, Kyubey told her that what Kyoko was attempting has never been done in the past and in Kyubey's mind that was an enough warning. What Kyoko does after that is still Kyoko's responsibility. In the end, the fact remains that Kyubey is not attempting to tell a lie but it is attempting to tell the truth in a way that makes it the listeners responsibility to discern the correct conclusion. To force Kyubey to tell Kyoko the whole truth would be a violation of Kyubey's liberty. Also, Kyubey is not harming Kyoko by not telling her the directly the truth. Instead, it is Kyoko who does the harming by not correctly deciphering Kyubey's information. Kyubey would suggest that nowhere at any time it harmed Kyoko, it was in fact [[Oktavia]] who did most of the harming, because Kyoko was too dumb to realize that what she was attempting to do was impossible, and even more dumber for not reading between the lines what Kyubey was telling her. In Kyubey's words, it would say that it never lied; it would acknowledge that it withhold information, but that was because they never asked further; and if anyone ever felt deceived, it is their own fault for misunderstanding Kyubey's words (words that were always truthful). For those who say that Kyubey is deceptive, they are correct but for a different reason that critics would like to believe. Kyubey was hoping its words would be misinterpreted (I don't doubt that was its goal) while still honoring the values of honesty and veracity. That's what frustrates Kyubey's critics. It is true that Kyube is hoping to mislead its victims. But at the same time, Kyubey is honoring the moral laws within the boundaries by hoping that the victims would believe the truth that it's saying and the fact that it's communicating. If the victims misunderstood it's words and the message that Kyubey is communicating, it is not Kyubey's fault. And for that reason one can say that Kyubey is hoping to mislead while at the same time honoring the moral laws without telling a lie. Yes, Kyubey is deceptive but he/she is not a liar.<ref>I would like to make it clear that this is a [[wikipedia:Categorical_imperative|categorical imperative]] from a Kantian philosophy regarding "telling a lie", it is defined as a way of evaluating motivations for action (See, [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|"Madoka and Minding her Motive"]]). Utilitarianism is considered a [[wikipedia:Consequentialism|consequentialism]], meaning that the moral worth of an action is determined by its resulting outcome. These two bands of philosophies are completely different from each other. But I thought Kant's explanation was much more beautiful and elegant regarding the difference between telling a lie and using a "misleading truth". If Kyubey was as smart as a [[wikipedia:Vulcan_(Star_Trek)|logical Vulcan]], I believe it would use the Kantian method of telling the truth.</ref><br />
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And before anyone objects by saying that Kyubey never warned the girls that becoming a mahou shoujo means getting your soul ripped from your body, we have to take a look back at [[Episode 2]]. When Mami was giving her introductions to Madoka and Sayaka, Kyubey informed the girls that it can grant any wish they want, but that the price of that wish is the production of the Soul Gem and fighting Witches. Let us disregard the obvious fact that the word ''"Soul"'' is in the name of the magical jewelry; if you read between the lines, Kyubey is telling the girls (in its subtle way) that by granting them one wish it would create a Soul Gem as its price for it. Kyubey may not spell it directly, but even with this subtle information, anyone smart enough would be able to conclude that someone's soul would be ripped to create that magical gem (at least on Kyubey's mind). In other words, Kyubey did warn and informed the girls about how Soul Gems are created, they were just not clever enough to decipher that information. <br />
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Before we end this section I would like to address a criticism regarding an issue that none of the girls who contracted by Kyubey wished to become Witches. It is true that no mahou shoujo wants to become a witch. But let us examine Kyubey's language when it asks many of those girls if they would like to make a contract. When Kyubey asks Madoka if she would like to become a mahou shoujo, what Kyubey is actually asking is if Madoka would like to stop being human. Remember, what is a mahou shoujo? They are girls who can use magic, their healing abilities and strengths are faster and superior to humans, and it is suspected if their bodies were damaged they could be replaced (this is the closest to immortality they would ever get). Now, what is to be human? It is certain it is none of what I stated previously. Humans can't do magic, they dont heal fast, and they dont have replacing body parts when they are mangled horribly. When Kyoko was angry and told Kyubey that it changed them into zombies. Kyubey's answered that it was the only way that they could become a mahou shoujo, that there would be no other way to achieve the same such results or be able to use magic effectively. For safety and efficiency reasons their souls are turn into soul gems so a mahou shoujo can do their job more effectively, making them invincible and giving them better odds to survive a battle against a Witch. Isn't that nice from Kyubey? After all, it is looking after the best interest of the girls. It would be just as crueler to send weak human girls to fight against witches, in a way the Soul Gem process is much more "humane". Kyubey would also explain that the process of becoming a Witch is just an unfortunate effect of the mahou shoujo process. If they dont want to become Witches all they have to do is not taint their souls too much. Yet, never the least, the girls accepted the risk by making a contract and becoming a mahou shoujo. And with that comes the risks of the job. <br />
<br />
===Bentham, the true monster. Mill, impractical idealism.===<br />
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After studying and reviewing the information, we can conclude without a doubt that Kyubey faithfully follows a Utilitarian philosophy. But it is also clear to mention that Kyubey's utilitarianism seems to be a mixture blend of Bentham's and Mill's thinking. Sometimes Kyubey would swing to one formula of utility and then swing back when it is convenient to do so. But it remains mostly on Mill's side most of the time, with the exception of when the whole planet is devastated. One could presume to suggest that Kyubey's thinking is not "The End Justifies the Means" as much as "Using Mill's Means to attain Bentham's End". Let me be the first say that Kyubey's Utilitarianism shares some similar values to Bentham and Mill. However, because Kyubey doesn't follow one principle of utility but a different version, we have to then assume that it is neither and both for two reasons. First, Kyubey is restrained by the rules that the alien race has laid on him. If Kyubey believed Bentham's utility wholly, it would disregard their rules and force Madoka into a contract regardless of her will or the rules itself. Instead, Kyubey tries to remain within the parameters and at the same time achieve the goals given to it. Second, if Kyubey had any respect for Mill's notion of Utilitarianism, then Kyubey has failed. Mill ideal version of utility is that with time the values of Utilitarianism would create progressive thinking and moral decisions based on utility that would allow the delivery of the greatest good. If Kyubey tried to follow Mill's ideal version of Utility, then he would be the less productive Incubator in the whole Universe; at that rate the end of the universe would be guaranteed. But it isn't so much as Kyubey failed Mill as Mill failed Kyubey. The problem with Mill's thinking is that it tries to maintain the principles of utility and the moral values of individual liberty at the same time. Critics have blasted Mill's utility as being naive and contradictory to Utilitarianism, some would suggest that Mill's formula violates the principle of Utility all together. Mill has proven that it can humanize utilitarianism when it adds a moral ideal of human dignity into the formula, but those ideals are independent of utility itself. Mill's formula would never achieve the greatest good that reflects the highest virtue of human value as long as it tries to maintain it within the realm of utility.<br />
<br />
Since Kyubey is from a very advance alien race, I have to assume Kyubey's utility shares similarities to our own understanding of Utility, but at the same time it is also unique because it transcends Bentham's and Mill's thinking, thus making it into a third form of Utilitarian thinking that shares some of their values but for a different end than Bentham or Mill would conclude. This is, of course, speculation.<br />
<br />
It is very clear that many critics and detractors have accused Kyubey of being evil, a liar, and a manipulator for good measure. But I would like to point out that they have failed to understand Kyubey and his own way of thinking to demonstrate why Kyubey is wrong. Their views have been mostly on the human side of the issue. Failing to see it from Kyubey's perspective to understand Kyubey. We have to remember that it is not easy to judge an alien race that we know little about, not even their moral values, but for the sake of argument we have to at least try. According to Homura, she doesn't think Kyubey thinks itself to be evil or cruel, she believes Kyubey just have a different perspective regarding morality so it fails to understand human values. However, that doesn't mean Homura trust Kyubey or believes she can reason with it. But let us be clear, by understanding Kyubey's utilitarianism I am not trying to justify its action. Instead, I am trying to comprehend Kyubey's point of view and perspective. What I have learned from Kyubey's point of view is that the issues regarding if Kyubey is evil or not is moot. What we should be concerned is the way Kyubey sees the world, which is much more disturbing and terrifying, and the worst part is that people who think the same way as Kyubey don't think that they are evil either or that they are doing anything wrong. <br />
<br />
===Kyubey: CEO of Entropy, INC.===<br />
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If I had to describe Kyubey from any organism from our world, I would say that no organism exist that is similar to Kyubey. The closest we have is a human being. But even at that it would fail to describe Kyubey accurately, because Kyubey shares many differences than similarities with humans. Just like humans, Kyubey demonstrates high intelligence and faculties similar to humans, but unlike humans it lacks emotions; it cannot die but instead spawn new bodies; and is able to grant abilities that itself cannot exercise or posses, humans could only dream of having such abilities.<br />
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So instead, rather than imagine Kyubey from any known living organism I would like to think Kyubey is similar to a non-living entity that is not just similar to Kyubey, but it paints a perfect picture of what Kyubey is. This non-living entity seems to follow Kyubey's philosophy regarding utilitarianism that is neither Bentham's or Mill's version. It uses Mill's means to attain Bentham's ends. Like Kyubey, it also has a goal to maximize utility for its own advantage. <br />
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Let us remember, an alien race created an artificial entity that is highly intelligent with no emotions, these aliens bestowed upon Kyubey certain abilities and limitations but also parameters known as "rules". Kyubey is assigned with a very simple mission and duty: follow the rules stated by the alien race (it cannot force humans into a contract. It also means it cannot also lie but it is allowed the flexibility to limit his information as long as it is truthful), maximize the collection of energy to repair the universe without violating the given parameters, and protect the girls until they reach to their maximum potential. Now, let us imagine that Kyubey is not an artificial organism created by an alien race, let us think of Kyubey as a Corporation created by a group of business people. "Kyubey", as the company is known, has a business mandate: follow the national and international laws regarding trade and finances set up by an entity known as "the government". "Kyubey" as a company is not allowed to exercise illegal activities, but the laws are flexible and deregulated enough to allow for a company to pursue interests that would benefit a free market society in a very competitive enviroment, if it wishes to survive it would take advantage of the loosened rules (in other words, as long as it is withing the boundaries of the law and it is not illegal, the company is protected from liability); and "Kyubey" must maximize company profits in order to not only benefit shareholders but to also avoid a bankruptcy or being taken over by the competition. "Kyubey" believes its existence is essential for the survival of the market/financial economy (so think of the universe as a large financial consortium). Without Corporations there is no free market or capitalism, and without Incubators you can say goodbye to the universe. <br />
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I am certain some of you would think that I am overreaching with my thinking but let us just assume that my assertion is possible for the moment. One day "Kyubey" is taken to court and it stands accused of several crimes. The proceedings state that the company has violated several laws and disregarded the rights of their employees. The first criminal accusation would be false advertisement and failure to disclose information. Sayaka, the accuser, would declare that she would have never made a contract if she had known that her soul would be ripped from her body and that she would become a witch. As stated before, what Sayaka calls false advertisement, Kyubey would defend himself by stating that Sayaka failed to "read between the lines" and if she didn't understand the conditions of the contract she should have contacted a lawyer of her own. The other issue regarding becoming a Witch, "Kyubey" would explain that Sayaka had more than enough information to make an educated decision regarding the risks of the job. According with the company, Sayaka knew the risks of becoming a mahou shoujo, what happens after the facts (or in this case, death) bears no consequence, nor does it make any difference regarding occupational hazard and safety (in other words, knowing that Sayaka would become a Witch during her period of employment would not have prevented her from becoming one). Not to mention it would be reckless endangerment to send weak little girls against witches; so the company has a policy regarding safety and health to protect their employees against hazards, ergo they rip their souls to make soul gems to minimize pain and increase their magical powers. What kind of employee sues a company for trying to reduce occupational hazards? Isn't Sayaka being ungrateful? <br />
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And regarding Sayaka's objection to her "uninformed" consent. As an example, let us say that "Kyubey" is a weapons manufacturing company and they employed Sayaka to create missiles. Sayaka knows what missiles are and that they are used during military campaigns. However, Sayaka believes that the missiles would only be used to kill evil people. One day she learns that one of the missiles she helped to construct was used to blow up a building that was suspected to house enemy combatants but instead it killed innocent civilians. While it is true that "Kyubey" sold the missile to the military for the purpose of warfare. There is no way that the company could have predicted that it would be used to cause innocent casualties; the company is aware of the possibility of such scenario. But we have to remember that this future event or circumstance is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty. According to "Kyubey", becoming a witch is not a certaintity but just a possible outcome. And in any case, "Witchification" is no different than death. So knowing or not knowing, for the sake of safety and health on Sayaka's part, makes no difference. The job still comes with the same risks, anyway. Nothing has changed.<br />
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But "Kyubey" would state that divulging sensitive information regarding "company secrets" would be detrimental for company morale. In fact, by not divulging sensitive information that would be a hindrance for employees to maximize their potentials, the company and employees like Sayaka would be able to achieve their potential without any unnecessary distractions. By knowing sensitive information, employees like Sayaka would lose focus and increase the potential of creating a hostile environment. <br />
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As one final act, "Kyubey" would state that as a company it has a responsibility to their shareholders by maximizing its profits. People may question a company's policy and its methods of obtaining profits, but as long as no legal laws have been broken then no crime has been committed. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" would state that as a company they are obligated to make no exceptions nor reverse their company policy just because a mahou shoujo feels like what they are doing is wrong. After all, "Kyubey" is a company not a charity. It is true that Kyubey does provide an exchange for products and services, so it is not "free", there is a price for it. If Kyubey were to grant wishes for free (without collecting souls or despair energy), not only there would be a quick depletion of energy, but their company would go bankrupt. The reason Kyubey collects souls is that they need them to create more despair energy, the more despair energy Kyubey creates, the safer the universe becomes. And the more energy Kyubey has on reserve, the more energy they can use to be reinvested to hire new and more mahou shoujo. So, Kyubey as an industry does not only provide products and services, but as a company they are also protecting the universe and reinvesting their energy to provide wishes and employment to more girls. It is true that "Kyubey" is polluting their cities with curses, familiars, and witches that are detrimental to humans. But can anyone point out to any company that has never produced toxic waste (or even just normal waste) during its lifetime? And what about the benefits that many girls have obtainted? Girls like Mami were given a second life, otherwise she would be dead. Kyouko was able to avoid destitution and hunger thanks to her wish. And even Sayaka was able to get the opportunity to heal a friend. Can anyone complain that Kyubey's services are not essential to the community and society? Kyubey as a company has saved lives, provided food and housing opportunity for the destitute, and healed incurable diseases and physical disabilities; making society and the human race more productive, safer from [[wikipedia:Heat_death_of_the_universe|death heat]], and better in the long run. <br />
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And as a business, the company has an obligation to be financially sound. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" is an important member of the community. After all, society and the whole human race have profited from Kyubey's products, and services. Kyubey's presence on Earth is essential for human progress. Without Kyubey's interference, humanity would never have achieved and advanced in the areas of art, culture, history, medicine, philosophy, science, technology, and other progresses. In fact, without Kyubey, humans would still be naked and living in caves. Before anyone can accuse the company of being selfish and greedy, perhaps humanity should asks themselves if they are in any better position to be self-righteous against the company after benefiting from so much? Specially, since all of human progress is thanks to the sacrifice and despair of innocent little girls.<br />
<br />
===Why is Kyubey wrong.===<br />
<blockquote>''"If you ever feel like dying for this universe, just call us."'' ~ Kyubey, [[Episode 9]].</blockquote><br />
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I would like to add one last comparison regarding Kyubey as a corporation and the philosophy of utility. As I have stated before, Kyubey used Mill's means to attain Bentham's end. What I mean is that a Corporation would try to stay within the boundaries of the law to maximize its profit and size, but it would also use Kyubey's method to eliminate its competition and achieve Bentham's end, which would be either be the elimination of all competition or achieving a total monopoly on the market. After all, the purpose of a company is to prolong its existence and to promote the idea that without them there is no free market. Just like Kyubey wants to prolong the existence of the universe and without Incubators there is no one to stop the end of the universe. But as we have observed, Kyubey's approach and solution is quite unnerving. Specially when we are asked to accept the suffering of little girls as a form of payment to enjoy the fruits of past labors and sufferings. But I would like to add one last thought. One of the reasons that utilitarianism has it critics is its attempt to use market values to achieve a noble and moral choice. This is not just reserved only to corporations; [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost%E2%80%93benefit_analysis government entities] and individuals attempt to do the same everyday[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2Rq4HJBxw&feature=relmfu]. Not only does utilitarianism fails in its noble and moral goal, but during the process we have probably noticed that humanity and the human soul has been reduced as a form of currency. Think about it, Kyubey would not accept no other form of payment but a human soul, something that it is considered to be sacred and holy (depending on your beliefs). Now suddenly, this alien creature decides that humans souls are no different than commodities to be traded. This utilitarian attempt to reduce all and everything as a commodity, including a human soul and the right of sale of it, is a degradation of our humanity that is being packaged as goods. It loses its moral value and dignity in the marketing process.<ref>''"Certain modes of valuation are appropriate to certain goods and practices. In the case of commodities, such as cars and toasters, the proper way of valuing them is to use them, or to make them and sell them for profit. But it's a mistake to treat all things as if they were commodities. It would be wrong, for example, to treat human beings as commodities, mere things to be bought and sold. That's because human beings are persons worthy of respect, not objects to be used. Respect and use are two different modes of valuation."'' Michael Sandel, "Justice" (pg 96).</ref> This causes us to rethink what makes us human and the values we hold as a civilized society. The reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is not that it is evil; the reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is what it represents. If a human soul can be reduced as a mere currency, or resource, or commodity ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IojqOMWTgv8&feature=related or a battery]), and we are willing to emulate Kyubey's methods and values, then we as humans have failed to realized and recognized our own dignity and value within ourselves. Because Kyubey may be an alien from a different world, but its values are no different from ours once we close examine it.<br />
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===Closing===<br />
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I would like to reiterate that this is my personal interpretation and opinion regarding Kyubey's utilitarianism and its moral values. This is not an attempt to put words on the creators of the anime series but an attempt to grasp a better understanding of it. I have used resources like the anime series, interviews, and Michael Sandel's book "Justice" to attain a better comprehension and analysis of the Kyubey character. The views of this essay are my own --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 11:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
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<b>Notes:</b><br />
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<references/><br />
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===In Opposition===<br />
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The above is well written, but suffers a single, but overwhelming, flaw. As I'm not a philosopher, please bear with me, but I believe my words hold merit. The main flaw of the above article is simple: Kyubey, himself, claims to not feel emotions, and is purely logical. However, Utilitarianism is the maximisation of happiness, and the minimisation of grief, which is the opposite of Kyubey's nature - he lacks the ability to feel either happiness or grief, and as such, does not care about it whatsoever. However, he does desire to live, the most basic of all instincts. As a being that possesses only logic and the desire to survive, all of it's efforts are devoted to a logical way of living as long as physically possible. Logically, this survival would be given the priority of the survival of it's own species, survival of itself, survival of those of it's own species, the survival of prey species, and, finally, the survival of strategically advantageous (i.e., allied) species. <br />
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If it's environment is reaching a physical limit to support it's existence, it acts to counter this, whether by increasing it's environment's parameters or limiting those factors acting against it. In the case of a population crisis, this would be finding more suitable ground in which to survive, or culling off competitor species, or, in an extreme case, members of it's own species. Taken to the most extreme level, that the universe is going to end eventually, even if that event is several hundred times further in the future than it's own species has lived thus far, then action must be taken to prevent or limit this collapse, so long as no more pressing matters exist. Regardless of the actual need to lengthen the life span of the universe, this is what an otherwise unoccupied, emotionless, logical species would do, and it is where the plot of the series is derived. On a similar extrapolation, Kyubey's race have conquered personal death - they can move themselves into a spare body, should they die. That, too, is an example of their attempt to control death on any level possible for them.<br />
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As a logical species, Kyubey chooses actions based on mathematics. The Probability of something happening, and the Effort needed to achieve it - that is, the result of Work and Time - and the ultimate result are the core components of it's decisions. As Kyubey lacks emotions, specifically, shame and guilt, it sees no need to gain consent if it does not need it. That Kyubey does attempt to gain consent suggests that either it does need it, or that gaining consent is easier than utilising brute force upon the issue - as it is their soul, they may respond in a negative manner by pure subconscious instinct, though this is entirely speculation. However, Kyubey does not put excessive effort into making certain that it's contractors are aware of the situation that they are being put into. Kyubey is perfectly aware that it is supplying minimalist information. Logically, Sayaka or Madoka or Mami should think things through and ask for more information, as Kyubey would do. However, the terminology is intentionally misleading. The term "Soul Gem" is given in English, despite his audience being 13 year old Japanese girls. When a young Japanese person, with English being a secondary language, at best, hears the word "soul", they do not connect it to the Japanese word "Tamashii", but to pop culture, and the use of the English word as flavour text to imply a certain spirituality, especially with spirituality being a low priority subject for a classroom lesson. This goes double with magical girls, which commonly use word choices which have very little to do with the purpose of an item. For example, in Sailor Moon, there are the Witches 5, who are part of the Death Busters, and one of them has a "Fire Buster". However, there's actually 6 Witches, the Death Busters do very little busting of death, and the Fire Buster is a flame thrower, not a fire-fighting tool. Similarly, it's suggested by Kyubey that "Witch" is derived from the characters for "Magical Girl", but even to the Japanese, this is elusive, as it's considered that "Evil" (Ma) and "Magical" (Mahou) are two entirely different words, despite the character for the former being used as part of the latter. Such cases are not unusual in the Japanese language. Thus, Kyubey intentionally uses a language choice which suggests the circumstances as they are, but phrased in a way that requires fairly extensive fact checking to be certain of what's going on, in the typical manner of someone who believes themselves very intelligent. In addition, keeping the truth of the matter quite can be very helpful, as Kyubey's purpose is to instil grief upon his contractors. Usually, this takes care of itself, but if necessary, it could make a useful catalyst - for example, in the case of Mami, who seems quite stable, and seems unlikely to transform without this being pointed out to her.<br />
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As for Kyoko, the probability of Kyoko ever bearing fruit may be slim, and Kyubey is not greedy. Perhaps the evolved Familiars provide as much grief as a magical girl, but at the least, it's providing that at a 5:1 ratio of kills to magical girls, in a situation where Kyoko herself is unnecessary, as a more fragile, incompetent and/or single-minded girl could be contracted to take her place. If the transformation process of Magical Girl to Witch is necessary to gather energy, then Kyoko - who is ruthless enough to avoid spending too much magical power and cold enough to survive her father's mass-murder-suicide with no transformation - will provide dividends at an extremely low probability. By supplying the most minimal level of information - or, rather, a succinct but accurate level of information, which is perfectly logical when dealing with a species with such a small communications bandwidth such as humanity - a situation in which four possibilities arises. 1) The death of Kyoko, creating a higher probability of the high-dividend, average-probability Madoka contracting. 2) Kyoko's success, resulting in Sayaka returning to normal, paving the way for an infinitely regenerating energy source. 3) Kyoko's failure, which does not positively or negatively affect Kyubey in any significant way. And 4) Kyoko's failure, followed by her transformation into a Witch, finally returning dividends on a long term investment. None of these significantly impact Kyubey in any negative manner at all, given the information on hand. Thus, Kyoko's attempt to confront Oktavia is desirable to him, and should not be prevented.<br />
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I'd like to leave it here for now. As I said at the beginning, it's my opinion that all of Kyubey's actions can be explained by the desire to live, without any messy morality being involved in the process, and I've provided several examples for this, which I believe are more logically explained, and more fully intertwined with canon statements, than my predecessor's. [[User:MrSP|MrSP]] 14:16, 4 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::The problem that I see is the desire to live or self preservation, an instinct, is an emotion by itself. Self-preservation is a desire to live, which sounds very "emotional". Let us say that logic indicates that what Kyubey is doing is only buying them time, that it wont stop the ultimate fate of the universe, their actions and their probability of success depends on the possibility that they will overcome entropy by harvesting enough energy. If the odds were on their favor then their acts are logical, if it is against their favor then it is illogical. Considering how Kyubey was trying so hard in getting Madoka it seems to indicate that Kyubey was getting "greedy" (for lack of a better term) and willing to sacrifice a whole planet for a short term gain (of course, I am guessing...). If this is correct then their quotas must be lacking and they may require some adjustments to maximize their energy yield. Yet as we saw Kyubey seems to have rules to follow, albeit he does bend them to his favor. If Kyubey is desperate to overcome entropy it would be much more easier just to follow a "slash and burn" policy and be damned about it. Of course, as you pointed out perhaps this method wont yield enough results, yet if we consider the size of the human population or even of the entire galaxy, even if one forced soul doesnt yield alot of energy, it may add up by the accumulative effect. Of course this is speculation. But the other issue is that we have to consider the possibility that even a civilization like Kyubey must be bounded by rules to live by, no matter how logical they are. The foundation of every civilization or society is to establish laws and rules, why? to minimize chaos and disorder so it doesn't collapse. Such a civilization would require a body politic to establish an extensive network, energy quotas, suggestions how to gather efficient energy, planetary exploration, etc, it needs an institution to run things properly. It also minimizes conflict with other groups or more advance civilizations. I wouldnt be surprised if there are other more advance alien races out there, and some of these organizations have imposed rules on Kyubey's civilization to make the whole process "more fair" and turn a blind eye at the same time and pretend everything is alright... Of course, speculation. We have no choice but to work as much as we can within the framework... And as for equating happiness with emotions. Now remember, Utilitarianism fails to grasp or define what "happiness" means or is to individuals or to society. When I say "happiness", I do not mean on the emotional joyful level, but what I mean in what it can maximize what would be beneficial to society as a whole (or at least to the most fortunate of the group), on in Kyubey's case the universe. While Kyubey doesnt have emotions, they do seek to maximize the lifespan of the universe itself, that would be their "happiness" for a lack of a better term, at the expense of the "suffering" of lesser groups or few planets. We can change "happiness" to "profit" or even to "energy" etc... it doesnt change much of the concept, just the definition but the aim is the same: maximize something at the cost of minimizing something else. IF Kyubey is driven by self preservation as you just suggested, then we have consider the possibility that not only can they feel emotion, but they are being selfish by imposing their rules and beliefs on others and disguise it as "logic". But what if they are not being selfish, just logical and what if their logic just happens to arrive and align to their own self interest and the interest of "others"? Help the universe survive and at the same time allow other worlds, not just their own, to benefit from it? This justification would be enough to convince even the most logical that what they are doing has long term benefits for the majority, at the expense of the minority. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 15:50, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
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::I would like to also point out that Bentham's utilitarianism tries to divorce morality to justify an action that is beneficial to a group or society, a reason why it has its critics because it tries to discard the messy morality. However, there are unusual discrepancies in Kyubey's action, remember it has always been pointed out as being utilitarian, yet its version seems to differ as it tries to combine both Bentam's and Mill's and it is difficult to explain it without any further details, which is why we speculate. All I can do is trying to find a reason for this transition or discrepancy. However, to me it is not good enough to say that Kyubey's actions are driven by self-preservation that lacks any emotion behind it, if there is any logic behind their actions then we have to see it beyond just "self-preservation" and make a logical argument about it that justifies it... a drive for self-preservation is not just an attempt for the continuation of an species, but it also implies a fear of death. Do kyubey's race fears death? I dont know, but they clearly dont want the universe to end and they see a logic to prologue their existence... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 16:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Kyoko, Puella Magi, and Libertarianism ==<br />
At first I disliked the character of Kyoko because she was so unlike Mami and Sayaka, but then she wormed her way into my heart and looking at the character as a whole one can appreciate her character on its own. I will try to work withing the principle [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw4l1w0rkjs&feature=relmfu philosophy of libertarianism] to try to understand her character to better appreciate her, but also demonstrate why the character of Kyoko could be destructive to society as a whole. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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As always, this will take a while... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
<b>Libertarianism: an assertion to freedom</b><br />
<br />
<b>John Locke: Life, liberty and the pursuit of wishes</b><br />
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<b>My Soul Gem, My Choice</b><br />
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<b>A Free Market Solution for a Puella Magi Problem</b><br />
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<b>The Puella Magi Cartel</b><br />
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<b>Puella Magi: Girls of Justice or Magical Mercenaries?</b><br />
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<b>Happiness does not equate freedom. Freedom does not equate happiness.</b><br />
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<s><b>Puellae Magi: a PR Illusion and the Issue of False Interpretation.</b></s></div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Community:Philosophical_Observations&diff=45138Community:Philosophical Observations2012-08-19T07:41:51Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>Moving Philosophical essays and observations to this page --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 05:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Keep in mind, this is only speculation and observation. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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==Madoka and Minding her Motive==<br />
<blockquote>-''"Why is mom working so hard for a company that she never dreamed of working with?" <br>"Hmmm... Mom doesnt like working, she likes working hard. There are a lot of things that she doesn't like about it, but she likes the feeling of satisfaction she gets when she overcomes those obstacles, those achivements are precious to her. It doesn't mean that she dreamed to work for that company. But Mom is living her ideal life, and some dreams come true this way."<br>- "so you make how you live into your dream?"'' ~ Madoka and her father. [[Episode 3]]</blockquote><br />
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During the series we notice that Madoka cant never make up her mind when it comes to making a decision, if she will make a wish or not. All she seems to be doing is stalling, crying, and blaming herself for being so weak. But is that really what is happening? It is true, Madoka feels weak and small, powerless to do anything for anyone. She knows that by becoming a Puella Magi that feeling of worthlessness within her would change. But she is also afraid of dying or worst, becoming a witch, a monster that could destroy her world and hurt even her family. Madoka feels trapped, she feels like she has no choice. But there is also something happening behind her mind as well. Before Madoka can take any action, she needs to understand herself.<br />
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The intellectual philosopher Kant states that ''"If all human beings are worthy of respect, regardless of who they are or where they live, then it's wrong to treat them as mere instruments of the collective happiness."'' To Kant, utilitarianism (and Kyubey) is not only immoral but incorrect. One example is the shopkeeper: ''"A child goes to the store and buys a loaf of bread. The grocer could overchage the kid, charge him more than the usual price for a loaf of bread and the child would never know. But the grocer realizes that if his customers discovered that he took advantage of a child, word might spread out and hurt his business. For this reason, he decides not to overcharge the kid. So he charges him the usual price. So the shopkeeper does the right thing, but for the wrong reason. The only reason he deals honestly with the child is to protect his reputation. The shopkeeper acts honestly only for the sake of self interest; the shopkeeper's action lacks moral worth."'' To Kant, what matters is the quaility of the will, the character of the motive."[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rv-4aUbZxQ&feature=BFa&list=SP30C13C91CFFEFEA6&index=6]<br />
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This example works the same way with Sayaka. Sayaka made a contract with Kyubey to heal Kyosuke. Superficially it seems like a selfless noble act to help a friend. But that is not Sayaka's true motive, regardless of whatever she says to defend her actions. Sayaka's true motive is that if Kyosuke is healed, he would not only get better but he would also fall in love with Sayaka for her sacrifice. But that wasn't Sayaka's wish nor that is what happened. And because Sayaka's wish went unfulfilled she felt into despair, not because she was selfish but because she failed to recognize her real motive behind her wish. Not only that but she used the act of healing Kyosuke as a way to earn Kyosuke's love as a form of reward to be expected from her sacrifice. Sayaka violated her own rights as an attempt to gain something in return, and she never consulted with Kyosuke if he would ever accept such deal (nor is he under any obligation to do so; and if Sayaka tried to force Kyosuke under such deal she would be violating his rights as well, since he never gave consent). In essence Sayaka is expecting a reward or a payment for her sacrifice. <br />
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We need to understand Madoka's true motives regarding in becoming a Puella Magi prior to [[Episode 11]] and her refusal during the series. It is easy to see why Madoka would refuse to make a wish, it means death (or a fate worst than death) so any rational person would refuse (as we saw during her conversation with Homura in [[Episode 4]]). But if that is the case then why is Madoka kept tempted to make a wish? This is where motive is important. In [[Episode 8]] Sayaka has a fight with Madoka, this leads to Madoka to blame herself for being weak and terrified of helping her friend. Madoka hates herself for this. Now at first it seems like Madoka is regretting her lack of action and she is tempted to make a wish to help and save Sayaka from her suffering, but this is not so. Madoka's motive is not to help Sayaka, instead she is afraid of being hated by Sayaka, a completely different understanding lacking the true nobility of friendship. There is another observation that is equally important, Madoka's scene with Kyubey in which he is trying to temp Madoka to make a wish. In this scene Kyubey is trying to convince Madoka that by making a wish she could become a god, he is trying to deceive Madoka into the belief that by becoming a powerful god she can fix everything. But what Kyubey doesnt tell her is that there are no guarantees nor he has any interest to fix anything. But let us look at Madoka's motive behind Kyubey's suggestion for her to become a powerful god. At first glance it seems like Madoka is willing to become a sacrifice to the universe so she can fix everything, save everyone. But is that Madoka's true motive? As before, Madoka's motive is not to fix everything for the good, but to fix the wrongs so she would stop suffering from the feelings of sorrow about herself and others (she wants to change Sayaka back to normal, perhaps as a way to atone her cowardly lack of action). It is during this scene that Madoka confesses to Kyubey that she always felt insignificant and useless. She felt that she would never be able to do anything for anyone to create happiness for others and for herself (a similar conversation took place with Homura in [[Drama CD 1|the drama CD ''"Memories of You"'']]). As you can see Madoka's intention at first seem noble but that is not her true motive; what we learn is that Madoka wishes she could be useful so she would stop being worthless (what Madoka desires is to stop feeling sorry about herself, she wants to avoid any more pain and suffering). Nothing has changed, Madoka continues to believe she is weak, that she is powerless, that if she fixes everything she can feel good about herself. If we watch the scene at first it seems like Kyubey is suggesting a noble sacrifice but in truth all Madoka wants to do is to end the suffering so she would stop her own suffering as well.<br />
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As the series progresses, Madoka's thoughts are slowly changing, specially in [[Episode 11]]. Madoka learns an important lesson from Kyubey, a history of sacrifice and how it has affected humanity. Madoka realizes that it is not about her anymore, it is about the people around her and the puellae magi that came before her. The sacrifices of those girls, their suffering, and how all mankind benefited from it. <br />
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Madoka has gained a lot of information that allows her to reflect about herself, and about others. Madoka's motives changes from "I want to stop being weak and feeling bad about myself" to "I want to save everyone, not to feel good about myself, but to stop the suffering and save everyone" and that "everyone" includes her family, her friends, and Homura. That's Madoka's true motive. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself (''"To act freely is not to choose the best means to a given end. It's to choose the end itself for its own sake"''). By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence. What Madoka is doing is trying to respect the humanity of others (and the puellae magi), she isnt using her own sacrifice to make herself good, she cast away that selfish idea ("being selfless for selfish reasons"). During her scene with her mother in [[Episode 11]] Madoka has finally grown up, she knows that what she is doing will hurt her family but she also knows that she is the only one who can save her family and her town from disaster. Not as a noble sacrifice, but as a moral duty as an adult. Madoka wants to do the right thing for the right reasons, she wants to stop the Puellae Magi's suffering, not to make Madoka powerful, not to make Madoka feel good about herself, but because she truly believes it is the right thing to do to stop the cycle of suffering. <br />
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Madoka's journey was long and painful and critics would like to say that Madoka was too indecisive. But I think the reason it was such a long journey for Madoka it's because Madoka was just being a typical teenage girl trying to figure out herself.<br />
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As a final note, the concert scene with Sayaka is an indicator of how much Madoka has grown. Madoka admits that she could have changed Sayaka's fate, but to do so she would have to stop her from making her wish, so instead she allows Sayaka's right to follow her decision. Sayaka agrees with Madoka's choice to respect her own decisions and the consequences that come with it (as they seem to be aware of the Law of Cycles). This indicates that Madoka respects the puellae magi's wishes and their choices, giving them the dignity and respect that Kyubey never gave them. Then when their time was over, Madoka would come and help them pass so their sacrifice wouldn't be in vain and their suffering would end quietly with no regrets. According with an interview with Urobuchi, this is [http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/pandoras-box-1-madoka-goes-terrorist/ Madoka's own way to acknowledge the magical girls' own hopes and wishes without negating them]. ''"Instead of living to chase after a dream as your goal, you should turn your way of living into your dream."''<br />
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:I never actually thought that reading someone else's philosophically-founded analysis could increase my understanding of an anime, but you've done it. This was very insightful for me. とっても素敵。[[User:Holycrap|Holycrap]] 21:16, 19 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I really think the characters in Madoka could be philosophically analyzed, Kyoko is one character I would like to try. I think there she has a mixture of extreme Libertarian philosophies within her character but my understanding of philosophy is limited. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree with Kant, but not with you. Sayaka is a selfless person with her own desire as well, but she helped Kyosuke not just because of her selfish desire, but also her good will. The problem of Sayaka is her compulsive personality, she forces herself to be a good person, while taking great damage(mental and physical) for other people, she ignores her own heart(In episode 9, what is written on the posters on the wall at the entrance of Octavia's barrier is a twisted form of "look at me", as mentioned by Yuuki Aoi in the commentary video). In a sense, this is very selfless, but you may also say her selflessness is fake because it's the "compulsive selflessness" and it is not the will of her true heart. However, still, Sayaka is basically a selfless person, it's wrong to interpret her as a selfish person, a selfless person is not a person without any selfish desires. <br />
:It is very wrong to interpret Madoka as a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:47, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I dont doubt she was selfless, but the purpose of this philosophical opinion is if Madoka was selfless for the right reasons or selfless for the wrong reason. I am not bashing Madoka, instead I believe Madoka overcomes her difficulty by doing self reflection. Remember, in all timelines Madoka always becomes a Witch. No matter what wish she makes, the wish would be twisted because of the logical nature of it (according with Kyubey). Instead, Madoka overcomes it by understanding the nature of the wish and understanding her own self. Self-reflection. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::What I said is that Madoka had never being a person who had being selfless for selfish reasons, when I say "...she's a true selfless person in nature, this has never changed", I mean she's a true selfless person who's selfless for selfless reasons, and this has never changed. The thing that made Madoka see hope, and resonant with it, which turns her into her ultimate form, is the love of Homura(the spiral of love spins around the arrow of hope, supporting it, protecting it, making it powerful, another important metaphor; it is so beautiful and powerful, isn't it?), not a realization of that she had being selfless for selfish reasons, because she had never being.[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 22:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::::I dont doubt Madoka wants to be good and selfless, but I disagree with the idea she was wholly selfless. She was pure and innocent but not a saint. Madoka is the embodiment of innocence, childhood, and love. But Madoka is also a character who carries flaws like her lack of self-esteem or her inability to believe in herself from the very beginning (this is one reason many fans disliked her in the beginning. They dismissed her as lacking character and a coward, which I disagree). When Madoka cries or feels bad, that's a natural reaction from a child. Madoka stopped running away and crying in the end when she became a bit wiser and mature. We also saw that her idea of mahou shoujo in the begining was more in line with a typical magical girl shows and she wanted to emulate Mami's courage and strength without truly understanding how much Mami had to sacrifice. Once she learns and experiences her life difficulties, instead of running she faces it. Madoka is growing, evolving. If Madoka was selfless and pure since the beginning then there is no transformative element, there is no "change" and with that there is no true hope (for the rest of humanity or the Puella Magi). Madoka's transformation as a Witch is not a result of Madoka's corruption of her purity, it was Madoka's inability to see her own corruptive power. It is true that Homura's love for Madoka led to Madoka's transformative change. However, we have to remember that Madoka didn't develop deep feeling for Homura. Even Homura can see it in Episode 11 and states that their feeling are growing apart. Madoka only realizes Homura's feelings at the end of her evolved transformation. If you listen to Madoka's conversation, she states that she could not understand Homura until Madoka was able to see all of her previous versions and timelines. Only then Madoka could comprehend Homura in a deep manner. Even Urobuchi agrees with this, and that is why he calls it [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Shinjidai_no_Mixture_Magazine_BLACK_PAST "cruel"]. That doesn't mean that Madoka didn't care for Homura's safety in Episode 12, it just means that Madoka cared for the safety of everyone in town (including her family ) at that time. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::::Madoka is selfless at the beginning, but she couldn't see hope and resonant with it while facing the greatest darkness, until Homura's love making her powerful - that's the transformation, love makes her see, that desperation is unnecessary, no matter how strong the darkness is, it can always be shattered by the power of hope(which means the conservation of hope and desperation is not true, not matter how it seems to be, it is not. Or you can say the rule of Universe, which is the conservation of hope and desperation, has being changed. The two statements are equivalent). Madoka doesn't understand Homura consciously at the beginning, but her subconsciousness is transformed by her love without her realizing it(She could even feel the love but she doesn't know where it comes from. If her subconsciousness hasn't changed, why would she become more and more powerful? Since only the heart of a Puella magi determines her magical power). I don't know why you don't like the saying that Madoka became a witch because of her being corrupted, I think this is a good way to describe it. Madoka is not unable to see her own corruptive power, since in some timelines before she's being turned into a witch, she knew what is inside her is going to turn her into a witch.<br />
:::::I'm not saying Madoka is perfect at the beginning, but she's almost totally selfless, and she hasn't done anything selfless for selfish reasons until the moment she was turned into a witch--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 23:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You misunderstand, I am not saying that Sayaka's selflessness is fake, the problem with Sayaka is that she lacks self reflection. Sayaka only realized the meaning of being a magical girl in Episode 9, by then it was too late and she transformed into a witch. I believe what Sayaka did was noble, she was also stubborn and childish. In her heart she thought she was doing good, in reality all she did was hurt others, including Madoka. IF Sayaka had been more honest with her feelings and her motives, perhaps her wish would not have gone unfulfilled, but that's just assuming. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:Oh, wow. WOW. I know that I'm pretty late to the whole congratulatory party, Mutopis(?), but I gotta say, I REALLY loved your analysis of Madoka's character, which I completed this early morn. I think it helps settle, at least somewhat, one of the little enduring qualms about I've had the ending-- a qualm that I was actually thinking on earlier tonight-- even though I personally regard Madoka's as one of the absolute best anime endings I've seen. And that was just how drastically fast and life-altering Madoka's development seemed to be, from (literally and mentally) a 14 year old girl to a goddess-like figure with a wisdom that surely can't be comprehended by our living humanity. There wasn't a lot of breathing room for this development! It's not like how it was with Jesus Christ, who knew of his universal significance and the fate that awaited him and lived every day of his life as we know it in preparation for it. Why, it's not even like most stories centered on a Hero's Journey, where the hero knows that he or she matters in some big way or another for a majority or reasonably large portion of the story. BUT-- seeing you map out her characterization, her subtle demonstrations of kindness and maturity, and your reminder of the revelations/conversations Madoka's had in episode 6 and 11-- the "transformation" has definitely become easier to come to grips with; it doesn't seem as extremely sudden as it did before. (still fairly accelerated, though.) (Really, thanks for giving greater context to the dialogue/revelation in episode 11's content-- I have actually semi-purposefully limited my own exposure to both episodes 11 & 12, having only let myself go through whole episode viewings twice each despite having the whole series on VLC. It's probably some combination of not wanting to make myself cry more, not wanting the ending to lose meaning to me, and not wanting to come to grips that the story, until the third movie's contents are revealed, is really over and done.) [[User:Animerican-Redeemed|Animerican-Redeemed]] 09:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Kyubey and Utilitarianism ==<br />
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I am working on Kyubey's utilitarianism, this space is for a rough draft.<br />
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Urobuchi's view in energy conservation and connection to [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/SWITCH_2011-07_Vol.29_No.07 Kyubey's utilitarianism] [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Spa_Weekly!_2011-07-19 kyubey's belief] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 the overly romanticism of (good) reality (false perception) and good intentions with bad results of unhappiness] and [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Newspapers_2011 trade offs]. By the way I am reading Michael Sandel's book [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY "Justice"] and it is a good source of understanding philology. Will finish when I can. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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:I take it that the words below are your voice (and not an attempt at translation), right, Mutopis? I ask for purpose of response. ;) -- [[User:NS|preceding comment by NS]] 16:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I can confirm these are not Urobuchi's thoughts. --[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 16:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::This is a philosophical essay with my words, I use some comments and information from interviews and some material from the book "Justice" to interpret the anime series in a philosophical way. I am using the same method that I did with [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|Madoka and her motives]] to appreciate and get a better understanding. I want to see if Kyubey's utilitarianism is that simple or it is more complex than that, and why it seems justifiable (I am playing the devil's advocate), but more importantly to demonstrate that Kyubey is not evil, but just follows what he was created to do. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 20:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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*Guys, if you like to contribute or express an opinion about the essay, you are more than welcome. This is just a rough draft. I think I will be working on this for a while and I would like some opinions to make sure it remains consistent. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
*I hope no one has any problem with this essay being long. To tell you the truth I have no idea how long this will grow into. I am still working, rewriting, doing few changes here and there... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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** Thanks for your professional opinion. But there are too many changes a day, and that makes it troublesome to track changes. Isn't it better to write into a file in your computer first to reduce modification to the page? And I think it good to open a new topic talking about this. [[User:Yorkwoo|Yorkwoo]] 15:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Well, this looks interesting, but it seems a bit long for this talkpage. I think it might be better suited either as a subpage under your user namespace or as a proper article.--[[User:Knon|Knon]] 12:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
::I wanted to leave it here for those who wanted to understand the character of Kyubey. I dont know, an article page about philosophy?... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::A link to a new page would work just as well for those further interested in Kyubey. --[[User:Knon|Knon]] 04:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
* I did a lot of cleaning and polishing. If anyone wants to fix some spelling errors and such, you are more than welcome. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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===What is Utilitarianism?===<br />
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The Human Philosophy known as [[wikipedia:Utilitarianism|utilitarianism]] can be easily breakdown as the philosophy that pursues the maximization of happiness and the reduction of pain, or at least the creation of happiness that surpasses the overall total of pain. If Kyubey's brand of utilitarianism was that simple there would be no need for this essay. But utilitarianism, like all brands of philosophy, have taken several different developments and each one has a distinctive flavor that requires recognition. This will be an attempt to understand Kyubey's own brand of Utilitarianism.<br />
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According with [[Episode 9|Kyubey's mission]], he wants to save the universe by offsetting the depletion of the universe's energy (actually, Kyubey's statement is wrong, the correct assessment would be to stop [[Thermodynamics|the permanent loss of heat]], but who am I to question an advance alien race?). To accomplish this mission Kyubey's alien race has found the answer to the problem, the harvesting of human emotion. The process is simply, give a human magical powers to maximize their sense of hope, then reverse their hope to be turned into despair, during the process the despair energy would be released during the witchfication process thus repairing the damage done to the universe. Repeat the process countless of times until an appropriate energy quota per planet is reached. Sounds simple yet horrifying at the same time. For many this is an example of utilitarianism as its worst, many critics believe that Kyubey is justifying the exploration of little girls to save the universe. However, before we can accuse Kyubey of anything, it is essential to understand the moral nature, as well as Kyubey's reasoning behind it, to determine if the reasoning is justifiable. <br />
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===Kyubey and Bentham: Let us just enslave the human race!===<br />
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Invaders from another galaxy have decided that to save the universe, they must harvest energy to repair the damage already done to it. Their race is incapable of producing such energy by themselves, but thanks to their advance technology they have detected a source of energy that is perfect to solve their crisis. They have detected a "bizarre" mental behavior known as "emotions" capable of producing the required energy but it goes unprocessed and it is localized in another galaxy. The inhabitants of this alien galaxy are equally strange as primitive, not only do they suffer from this mental anomaly known as emotions, but they are being wasteful by not fully developing its potential. Such a waste of energy would be a crime if left unharvested. The alien race decides to invade this galaxy, enslave the inhabitants, and fully exploit its potential by maximizing the production of energy to meet their quota... or so it should be if this was Bentham's brand of utilitarianism but it is not (at least not completely). This is the first indicator that there is something odd about Kyubey's utilitarianism.<br />
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According with Jeremy Bentham, the goal of Utilitarianism is to produce as much happiness as possible, regardless of the means. But most importantly, all forms of happiness and all form of pains have their own equal moral value (no pleasure is better or highest than the other). Which means one form of happiness cannot be measured against another form of happiness; the same can be said about pain. It takes people's preferences as they are without passing judgement on its moral worth. It would be presumptuous to judge some pleasures to be inherently better than others. At the heart of it, Bentham's utilitarianism is nonjudgmental, to him all pleasures are equal. The assumption is that by measuring and calculating the values of pleasure and pains into a formula, one can reach an agreeable moral choice that would promote the general welfare and happiness of the populace. Let us consider the issue at hand, the whole universe is going to be destroyed and all Kyubey is doing is extinguishing a few souls to preserve the general welfare and happiness of countless galaxies. Perhaps one whole planet would be annihilated in the process, but what is a few billion souls when you take into account billions and billions of worlds that would be saved. Some would object that exploiting and even killing human beings is immoral and wrong. Yet, Kyubey would point out that humans do it all the time to one another, and not only that but that they even do it against other lower life forms for their own selfish benefit. After all, aren't humans exploiting animals and other organism to feed their populace, to attain monetary gain, and maintain their civilization? (be it on the agricultural sector or for medical research or a source of cheap labor). Why should humans be given a preferential treatment? After all, maybe there are more advance and worthier alien species out there that deserves to be saved more than humans, and maybe that makes humans the lower life form. On this cold and calculating equation to save the universe one has to arrive to one simple conclusion. If saving the universe by exploiting the emotions of humans has the same moral value than domesticating cattle to feed society, then it should be reasonable to say that Bentham would not object to enslaving the human race to achieve Kyubey's objective. While one would object that it would be morally wrong to exploit humans, one would also have to argue that it would be equally morally wrong to allow the universe to be destroyed. In the utilitarian equation it would be better for one whole planet to suffer than the whole universe to collapse. After all, saving the universe at the expense of the human race would create the greatest form of happiness for the rest of the galaxy. It would suck for the human race, but stopping the end of the universe trumps anything and everything. And if you don't like what Kyubey is doing then too bad, the end justifies the means and the universe would be saved, like it or not. <br />
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Yet, as stated before, that is not the case here, at least partially. Apparently, Kyubey and the aliens have some sort of moral code of their own that disallow them to force humans to enter into a contract (slavery) but they are also not allowed to deceive (false advertisement) or lie to them either (this is, of course, up to debate). However, they do not seem to have any moral qualms regarding the harvesting of human emotions to save the galaxy, just the slavery part.<br />
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One objection to utilitarianism is the attempt to measure pleasure and pain in a single scale while ignoring the qualitative experience of pleasure and pain. For many, certain forms of pleasure are not only higher but also worthier than others. It is believed that the pursue of a nobler pleasure would allow utilitarianism to the arrival of the greatest good. One could make an argument that saving the universe would create happiness but that the quality of happiness would suffer at the expense of perverse methods used for to attain it. Instead, one could say that Kyubey is trying to create the greatest form of happiness by using much more nobler (albeit questionable) methods to attain it. Rather than force the human race into submission and slavery, why not entice them into a fair contract? <br />
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===Kyubey and Mill: Humans are not Cattle.===<br />
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One of the biggest flaws regarding Benthram's utilitarianism is that it doesn't give adequate recognition to human dignity and individual liberty. In its attempt to measure, aggregate, and calculate happiness in a nonjudgmental manner (democratizing all forms of pleasures equally) it eliminates the qualitative and unique moral value of pleasure and pain. What Bentham has done is reduce everything of moral importance to a single scale. John Stuart Mill tries to recalculate utilitarianism into a more humane and less calculating doctrine (a more human-friendly form of utilitarianism that is less prone to enslaving the human race) to achieve a munch nobler form of Utilitarianism that tries to promote the greatest good while recognizing the liberty of individuals. On Mill's ideal version of utilitarianism, as long as no one gets hurt and no one imposes their beliefs on others, then everyone is allowed to exercise their own free will and liberty to achieve the correct moral value that results in the greatest good.<br />
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Let us go back to our scenario regarding an alien race looking for a solution to save our universe. The aliens realized that the human race are the perfect source of emotional energy to be harvested to repair the damage already done to the universe. Kyubey's aliens know that humans are still primitive and prone to their own mental illness known as emotions. Why not put them to better use by enslaving them and harvesting all their energy? At least they would suffer for a noble cause. According with Mill this would be wrong for two reasons. One, it violates the liberty and rights of the human race and its individuals, no one should force them to be used as resources, no matter the cause. Second, the issue at stake here is that the noble idea to save the universe gets tainted because of the process that it is used to achieve the result. Why is this important? It could be damaging for the promotion of general welfare and happiness. Bentham would just suggest that "the end justifies the means" as long as the highest form of happiness is achieved. But Mill's issue is that such inhumane methods may create the greatest form of happiness today, but in the long run it could promote reckless behavior with devastating results. And who is to say that the human race wont try to overthrow their alien overlords to free themselves? Mill is trying to use utilitarian principles as an attempt to promote progressive behavior (the pursue of not the highest pleasure but the noble ones as well). <br />
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Let us take for example the danger of creating a Superwitch like [[Kriemhild Gretchen]]. We saw the devastating results that took place in [[Episode 10]] in which the Earth was destroyed along with all life on the planet. According with Kyubey the creation of Kriemhild Gretchen allowed Kyubey to meet its energy quota in the short run. Of course, this [[wikipedia:slash-and-burn|slash-and-burn]] method was very profitable for Kyubey but what about the loss of future energy collection now that the Earth is dead? No problem, Kyubey states that there are other planets to exploit and using its cold logic the benefits outweighed the risks. Let us assume that what Kyubey is probably saying is that Gretchen produced more energy in a single day than a lifetime collection from the Earth. Perhaps this single offset prevented the future despair of millions of girls; isn't that a better outcome? To reduce the despair of future victims? Not to mention Incubators are now much closer on saving the universe. If this is correct, then losing the planet Earth was an acceptable loss to attain a large reserve of despair energy (perhaps the largest in history), according to Bentham. But Mill would disagree, what about the consequences? What about the fact that this act stains the noble cause to save the universe?<br />
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Kriemhild Gretchen is a Superwitch, but apparently at the moment she is no threat to the galaxy. She may be powerful enough to kill one planet but she still small and powerless enough to be no threat to the alien race or to the whole galaxy for that matter. But let us say overtime she could be, perhaps with time she would find a way to travel to other planets and start growing. Wont this become an issue in the future? And what about the reckless behavior that it promoted? Wont there be a danger that other Incubators from other planets would like try to recreate the same scenario to meet their quota? Soon, it would not just be one planet, but perhaps a few docents and even more that are suddenly destroyed by a Superwitch. And who is to say that these Superwitches wont find a way to merge their powers and create a Super Walpurgis Night powerful enough to destroy the whole universe? Should Incubators take such chance? That is what could happen in the worst case scenario. Of course, this a fabricated scenario of a possible future event. No one knows what the consequences would be like after the destruction of the Earth. It could promote the accelerated process to end the whole galaxy, instead of saving it, but it is just as likely that it doesn't. But that is one dangerous scenario regarding utilitarianism that Mill would like to avoid. <br />
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So, what is Mill's advice for Kyubey regarding utility? Well, not slaving the human race for one. Which in fact that is what they did. As stated by Kyubey, it is against the rules to force humans to become a mahou shoujo against their will. It is their individual choice to decide if they want to become one. This would seem to indicate that Kyubey respects the rights of individuals rather than violate them. After all, Kyubey can be found promoting the Mahou Shoujo lifestyle without forcing anyone to join in, as it is per rules. But what about the recognition for human dignity? Isn't it implied that by harvesting and using humans as resources are they no better than cattle to be consumed? But Kyubey has already an answer for it. Let us not forget that Kyubey recognizes humans to be unique creatures with a noble goal and purpose, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey knows that humans are not lower life forms like cattle just to be harvested and consumed to save the universe, regardless of how humans treat each other or other lower lifeforms. Kyubey states that while it would be for the greater good to harvest human emotions, regardless how Madoka feels personally, at least Kyubey and the alien race took the effort to recognize their uniqueness. Of course, that seems like a nice speech but it still requires substance and evidence behind his words. One clear evidence is that if Kyubey thought humans were cattle then why bother with allowing humans to roam free? Why the rules regarding the respect of personal liberty and choice? We must also remember that as a sign of recognition regarding the uniqueness of humans, they are allowed one single wish in the transaction. Kyubey could easily steal their human soul but they are forbidden to do so. Kyubey states that is one reason why humans are allowed such honor for accepting a contract. While it is true that Kyubey is using humans as a resource, they are neither slave nor cattle, no one is forcing them to make a contract to join in. Instead, the mahou shoujo are like employees and they are given the opportunity and honor to sacrifice their own lives for a noble goal. Isn't that what a mahou shoujo is all about? Girls of justice and noble sacrifice to triumph over evil? It is not slavery if a mahou shoujo gives consent and it is not exploitation if they accept a wish as a form of payment.<br />
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However, there is a certain flaw regarding this argument that Kyubey is practicing a brand of Mill's utilitarianism, and that is that we are assuming that is what Kyubey is doing. First of all, as anyone who has watched the show, would have noticed that Kyubey's actions and behavior have been deceptive so far (Kyubey would disagree). Not to mention the fact that Kyubey concealed the true nature of witches and mahou shoujo from starry-eye naive girls. And who can forget the mess that resulted for the Earth in [[Episode 10]], and Kyubey's disregard for the well being of the planet's inhabitants. Was that Kyubey being cold and cruel? Or was Kyubey just accepting the hard facts as it were, and was there really nothing that Kyubey could have done about it? To Mill, he would be appalled; after all the goal of utilitarianism is to achieve not just happiness but to make sure that the practice of utility would retain long term results. The destruction of the Earth may be good for the survival of the universe, but Mill would not consider that to be an acceptable loss for the greater good if the rights of billions of humans are violated in the process. What about the adverse effect that it would produce? Couldn't this establish a terrible precedent for future energy collection processes and encourage bad immoral behavior through out the galaxy.<br />
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Such practice and behavior brings into question Kyubey's moral value and its sensibility, if it was being measured against human values. There lies a fundamental problem, we know nothing regarding this alien culture and their definition of morality (for all we know their doctrine is based on emotionless cold logic), but for the sake of argument let us assume that they do share our same view regarding morality. Can it be said that Kyubey's utilitarianism tries to remain faithful to either Bentham or Mill? Is it a mixture of it? Or perhaps it is neither and both, perhaps it is an unique form of utilitarianism? Or maybe the problem lies with Mill's utilitarianism, in which we are expecting Kyubey to live up to its principle ideally. But before that, we have to ask ourselves. Are we judging Kyubey unfairly? <br />
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===Let's Make a Deal: The Meaning of Consent.===<br />
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Let us explore the process in which one accepts a contract. One day a furry magical creature approaches you with the promise of making you into a magical girl and in exchange you get one wish. It sounds like a great bargain but you wonder if there is a trick to it. Of course, before you can accept the deal, the magical creature is obligated to disclose to you the dangers of becoming a magical girl. It informs you that you will be fighting witches, but you will be granted magical powers to defeat them. Sounds fair, right? What Kyubey is doing is offering you a product that sounds too good to be true, the creature discloses the terms of conditions (fight witches to gain more magic and to keep yourself alive) in exchange for the opportunity to attain any wish that you want (within the limits of karmatic energy availability). The process sounds simple and you do not suspect anything. After all, it seems that you are being recruited to hunt down evil Witches who are eating innocent humans, it sounds like a noble cause. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity that may never come up again (unless you are one of those girls who Kyubey decides to pester every opportunity to make a contract). You are swoon and tempted by the opportunity that you decide to accept the contract, perhaps you feel desperate enough to want your wish that you decide it is better than nothing. Then somehow you later learn that what you signed into was not what you expected, you are horrified to learn the truth behind the Puella Magi System that you want a way out to avoid your fate into becoming a Witch. But Kyubey refuses to do anything to reverse the process and tells you that you are under contractual obligation to fulfill your part of the bargain. It informs you that you are under no obligation to hunt down witches if you want, as it will accelerate the transformation process if you keep using your magic for anything else, but the process itself cannot be stopped. You accuse Kyubey of lying and the furry creature would refute your accusation by saying that it never lied and that you never ask for more details of what being a magical girl entails (in other words, you never read the fine print). But most importantly, Kyubey would maintain that since you consented to become a magical girl, you also consented with the terms and conditions of the contract that came with it: Fight witches until the moment of metamorphosis, in which the despair energy would be collected to repair the universe. Once a witch you would be freed from your contractual obligation and live the rest of your life as a witch until you are killed by another magical girl (of course, Kyubey wouldn't say it outright in the beginning. If Kyubey was a lawyer he would probably codified it in legalize to avoid annoying questions). But the point is clear, not only you gave consent to become a witch, but you failed to properly educate yourself with the consequences of becoming a Witch. In the end, the failure lies with you. Perhaps Kyubey should wear a [[wikipedia:Caveat_emptor|''"Caveat Emptor"'']] sign around his neck to warn would-be magical girls, but that would undermine Kyubey's purpose and Kyubey would declare that that would be unfair for the universe, as it would guarantee the destruction of all life, along with planet Earth in the near or far future.<br />
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Let us analyze what went wrong and determine who truly is at fault. First of all, what is consent? And once we learn the meaning of it. Does it meet the requirements to be declared consensual? Or did any girl who consented did not truly consented because it did not meet the requirements for it? <br />
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Consent refers to the provision of approval, particularly and especially after thoughtful consideration. To be considered a consent, means that the individuals gives acceptance to an agreement after making an inform decision. However, those who believe that Kyubey is deceitful would point out that any girls' consent is tainted because their informed decision lacked the adequate information to make a rational decision. Some would even go so far as to say that Kyubey used coercion to attain their consent during questionable situations. Therefore, critics would say it fails to meet the requirements for consent. If we consider Kyubey's practice to be deceitful and with the added element of coercion into it, it does bring into question wherever Kyubey's actions are valid and legal (if you could somehow take an alien to court to enforce Earth/national laws. But let us say that you can for the sake of argument). <br />
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First, the issue of coercion. One great example that we can use is [[Tomoe Mami]]'s case. Mami is a victim of a car crash accident (let us say for convenience that there is no foul play in part of Kyubey) and she is dying. The ambulance is on its way but it wont make it on time and Mami's body is already failing. Her body is mere minutes away from death and nothing can be done for her. Then suddenly, Kyubey appears and tells her that if she would like to make a contract. Kyubey informs Mami that it would grant her one wish and she would be fighting witches for the rest of her life. And she can make any wish she wants. This is a classic example of obtaining consent during duress. Mami has two choices to make, either accept Kyubey's contract and become a mahou shoujo or die. So she made her wish, she wished she could live (actually we dont know the actual wording of the wish, but it is assumed it had something to do with saving her life). Critics would say that Kyubey was being manipulative and unfair, that Mami's consent was tainted. The only way that Mami's consent would be valid, would be if Kyubey had approached Mami before the accident or if Kyubey had saved Mami's life first then ask her if she would like to make a contract with Kyubey. <br />
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I would like to point out certain issues on this case. In accordance with utilitarianism (in which Mami chose the pleasure of living over the pain of dying), Mami benefited from Kyubey's contract and any complains she may have against Kyubey is invalid. After all, Mami wanted to not die and Kyubey wanted to get a contract from Mami. Both of them had something that the other wanted and in the exchange they both got it. Under that rationality it would be hardly unfair. Second, even if one considers Mami's consent to be tainted or coerced, their complain is invalid. After all, the idea of coercion would mean that someone's rights was violated. Unless someone can find evidence that Kyubey staged the accident, then maybe they would have a point, but it is not. There is also the issue that Kyubey obtained Mami's consent while dying. Critics like to point out that Kyubey should have saved Mami first, instead it was taking advantage of the situation. We have to remember, in the case of Kyubey we do not know what kind of magical powers Kyubey itself can use or do, Kyubey is simply part of the process to create and grant wishes. It's like saying "Why Kyubey cant wish itself to repair the universe?" Because it cant. For all that we know, approaching Mami with a contract was Kyubey's way of helping her. Let us assume that this is correct (a big assumption, I know) and Kyubey is a powerful yet powerless creature unless a wish is made. If this is correct, then there is nothing Kyubey could have done by itself other than grant wishes. If Kyubey is guilty of anything, is perhaps of taking advantage of a situation. Of course, critics would continue to question the issue of validity within Mami's consent, and whatever she was on her right mind to make such decision. But the fact remains that, regardless of the situation, Mami still gave consent to save her life and she benefited from her choice. Kyubey would like to point out that it doesn't matter in which situation Kyubey got her consent, the fact remains that in Mami's case if it hadn't approached her she would be dead, instead she got to live longer (just to be killed by a [[Charlotte|cheese eating Witch]]). If anything, Mami benefited the most from the situation (to Kyubey's point of view). And since a deal is a deal, it is hardly unfair as long as both party benefited. I would agree that the issue regarding consent in Mami's case is a bit murky and difficult to determine, because of the lack of proper information. However, since we are trying to determine a conclusion with the given information, this would be my own impression. According with Bentham, the issue regarding consent doesn't matter since an individual's right don't matter on the utilitarian equation, and since both parties benefited at the time, the deal was hardly unfair. For Mill, since Mami got to live longer and she avoided the pain of death, she got the greatest good in return. While it is true that the issue of consent is at the heart of the question, we have to assume that in Mill's equation, the desire to live and the want for self-preservation would outweigh her individual's right. Mill would agree that Mami's liberty must be preserved on the utilitarian equation, but when you are weighting the two rights of the same individual, which side has the greater value? On one side it is Mami's right to life, on the other it is Mami's right to be allowed to consent free of pressure, deception, and duress. But let us be clear, Kyubey did not create the situation that Mami was in, and also there was the issue of time. Given what was occurring, there is not enough evidence to find culpability with Kyubey at the moment of the accident. And since Mami's life was at risk, her right to life takes precedent. And Mill would also like to remind us that no one got hurt during the deal (it did more than that, it prevented someone from dying). The issue of Mami's right being violated is moot since Mami's rights were preserved by saving her life so she could continue to exercise those same rights. According to Mill, actions and consequences aren't the only issue, an individual's character also matters. If Mami were to die she would be deprived to exercise her rights and to develop her character as an individual. And what would be the worst precedent from this quandary? Kyubey appearing to every girl close to death and giving them the chance to save their own lives? Wouldn't that create the greatest happiness? And what if every girl Kyubey saves from death are like Mami, or even better? Wouldn't that be not just good for society but even better? (let us assume that Kyubey saves more girls like Mami than Kyouko on this contingent assumption). Mill would agree that protecting Mami's right is important for utility to preserve the general welfare. However, he would also agree that since the rights violated were inconsequential to society (and for Mami) and instead it promoted the greatest good with harm to no one, then it has served its purpose to serve the greatest good.<br />
<br />
Let us set aside Mami's case for now and let us examine the accusation of Kyubey's deception. Critics and detractors have objected to Kyubey's practices on attaining victims for his scam and they have accused Kyubey of lying to get its goal. As always, Kyubey would disagree with them. I don't have to tell you what Bentham's side would be regarding on lying, since he wouldn't see a problem with this as long as Kyubey's action maximizes happiness (eg: save the universe). But what about on Mill's side of utilitarianism? What would be Mill's view on lying be? <br />
<br />
===I cannot tell a lie, you will fail Kyoko.===<br />
<br />
Let us picture this scenario. Kyubey is chasing down Madoka and it is seeking her location, it arrives to Homura's residency but before Homura gets to fill that furry alien with bullets, Kyubey asks if Homura has seen Madoka. Prior to Kyubey's arrival, Madoka has sought refuge within Homura's home and she is hiding. On this situation, Mill would say that lying is ok because it serves to the greater good, to protect a girl from Kyubey. To Mill, lying is ok as long as it saves lives and serves its purpose to create happiness. While lying is deceitful, it has some good uses. And as long as the lie harms no one, then there shouldn't be any problem. But what about when Kyubey uses lying to save the universe? Wouldn't that also be for the greatest good? No, it wouldn't be. Kyubey would have violated the liberty of individual girls by forcing them into contracts under false pretense, and by using falsehood and deception, Kyubey has tainted the utility and quality of the greater good. The problem with this assumption, is that it believes that Kyubey would lie, cheat, and steal to attain his goal when in facts it is the opposite. Let us first try to understand Kyubey's "deception" and determine if there is some ground for such accusation.<br />
<br />
Observers would notice three things about Kyubey. Whenever it seeks a contract it would only give a basic information and minimal detail regarding what the job entails; when someone ask a question that could unravel the true nature of the Puella Magi System, Kyubey would try to give a satisfactory answer that doesn't divulge too much information; and sometimes when someone wants an honest answer from Kyubey, it would divulge answers that could be interpreted differently that, strictly speaking, could be misleading ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqzW0eHzDSQ&feature=relmfu a misleading truth]). The problem here is that none of this proves that Kyubey has ever lied. It is true that Kyubey has omitted information whenever it suited its purpose, it is also true that Kyubey divulged information with the prospect of influencing events to his favor, and that it tried to hide facts by being vague or evasive without being false. But, was Kyubey a liar? Was Kyubey maliciously deceiving girls for his advantage? In other words, there is a difference between being purposely deceitful and another is using misleading truths (without being false or lying) in the hope that it would be incorrectly interpreted on Kyubey's favor. <br />
<br />
Let us start with Sayaka as an example. In [[Episode 2]], Sayaka asks Kyubey what are Witches and how are they any different from mahou shoujo. Kyubey's response was simple yet clever, if a mahou shoujo is born from wishes then witches are born from curses. So a mahou shoujo spreads hope while a Witch spreads despair. Nowhere in this sentence is Kyubey lying, technically Kyubey is not only telling the truth but it briefly gives a glimpse to the Puella Magi System. Of course, you have to read between the lines and be a bit clever to realize it but to anyone unfamiliar with the system, they wouldn't even give much of a second thought. At that moment if Sayaka had pressed further the issue, who knows how far could Kyubey could have avoided telling the whole truth. But sadly, Sayaka didn't. So in effect, as long as they fail to ask the right questions, it is not Kyubey's fault.<br />
<br />
Let us look to another example regarding Kyubey's clever way to influence a situation by telling a misleading (but carefully prepared) truth. In [[Episode 9]], Kyoko asks Kyubey if there is a way to get Sayaka's Soul Gem back. Kyubey responds that it doesn't know of any known method. We all know that Kyubey is using a careful evasion not to divulge its opinion, but at the same time tries to divulge the truth. Kyoko not wanting to give up asks Kyubey if are there things that even Kyubey doesnt know. Kyubey replies that it doesn't know everything that there is to know. It acknowledges that the nature of magic defies logic and that it wouldn't be surprising if something absurd did came out of it (let us not forget, Kyubey makes the impossible possible). Kyoko takes Kyubey's response as acknowledging that there is a possibility for her hopes. However, that is a misleading truth. Kyubey does acknowledge that magic defies logic, that what Kyoko would try to attempt has never been tried before. But Kyubey also knows that what Kyoko is suggesting is impossible and would never succeed as it "defies logic"; and even if for some absurd miracle something did happen, the odds of it are astronomical. Of course, Kyubey doesn't tell her that directly, instead it uses misleading truths and facts to confuse Kyoko so she would reach to the wrong conclusion. If you read between the lines, Kyubey is saying that what Kyoko is attempting is foolish and impossible, but Kyubey also adds that magic belongs to the realm of the impossible and that its nature is not well understood (but I am certain that Kyubey is betting that logic would prevail). Whatever conclusion Kyoko ever arrives to, it is not Kyubey's fault. Since Kyubey would respond that it has only given her the information that she needed to reach to the right conclusion. If Kyoko misinterpreted Kyubey's information and instead got the wrong impression, then the fault lies with Kyoko. After all, Kyubey told her the truth and tries to neither encourage nor discourage Kyoko on her wrong conclusion. Kyubey does admit that it usually stops a pointless sacrifice (don't get the wrong idea, Kyubey just doesn't like to lose girls too early before their emotions can be harvested) but in this case it didn't stop her. According to Kyubey, losing Kyoko has a great advantage to further utility. Now, critics would point out that Kyubey killed Kyoko by not discouraging her to stop her foolish plan. It is true, Kyubey did not tried to stop her, instead it just allowed the situation to unfold itself. But here is what it gets tricky, according to Mill people have the freedom to do whatever they want as long as they are not hurting others ''"Government may not interfere with individual liberty in order to protect a person from himself, or to impose the majority's beliefs about how best to live"''("Justice", pg. 49). In essence, Kyubey was allowing Kyoko to exercise her right to recklessly endanger herself. Kyubey knows well the dangers ahead for Kyoko, but since it is Kyoko's right to get herself killed, why interfere? After all, Kyoko knows very well how dangerous it is to meddle with a Witch, she is a veteran mahou shoujo, so she already knows the risks already. If Kyoko wanted to risk her life for an impossible task, then that was her right and her freedom to do so. But let us say hypothetically, what if Kyoko knew what Kyuey was thinking and she still decided to take a gamble? What if Kyoko knew Kyubey was using misleading truths to get rid of her? Critics would say that Kyubey should had at least warn her and told her the truth of the matter. After all, Kyoko is stubborn and would do whatever she wants, no matter the objections. Here is what Mill's utility tell us. First of all, Kyubey has the right and liberty to discard and tell any information in any way it wants it to be, Kyubey can be directly honest and get to the point or deliver the truth in such a way that it could be misinterpreted (as long as Kyubey's words are truthful). Kyubey would also add that it did warn Kyoko on its own way, Kyubey told her that what Kyoko was attempting has never been done in the past and in Kyubey's mind that was an enough warning. What Kyoko does after that is still Kyoko's responsibility. In the end, the fact remains that Kyubey is not attempting to tell a lie but it is attempting to tell the truth in a way that makes it the listeners responsibility to discern the correct conclusion. To force Kyubey to tell Kyoko the whole truth would be a violation of Kyubey's liberty. Also, Kyubey is not harming Kyoko by not telling her the directly the truth. Instead, it is Kyoko who does the harming by not correctly deciphering Kyubey's information. Kyubey would suggest that nowhere at any time it harmed Kyoko, it was in fact [[Oktavia]] who did most of the harming, because Kyoko was too dumb to realize that what she was attempting to do was impossible, and even more dumber for not reading between the lines what Kyubey was telling her. In Kyubey's words, it would say that it never lied; it would acknowledge that it withhold information, but that was because they never asked further; and if anyone ever felt deceived, it is their own fault for misunderstanding Kyubey's words (words that were always truthful). For those who say that Kyubey is deceptive, they are correct but for a different reason that critics would like to believe. Kyubey was hoping its words would be misinterpreted (I don't doubt that was its goal) while still honoring the values of honesty and veracity. That's what frustrates Kyubey's critics. It is true that Kyube is hoping to mislead its victims. But at the same time, Kyubey is honoring the moral laws within the boundaries by hoping that the victims would believe the truth that it's saying and the fact that it's communicating. If the victims misunderstood it's words and the message that Kyubey is communicating, it is not Kyubey's fault. And for that reason one can say that Kyubey is hoping to mislead while at the same time honoring the moral laws without telling a lie. Yes, Kyubey is deceptive but he/she is not a liar.<ref>I would like to make it clear that this is a [[wikipedia:Categorical_imperative|categorical imperative]] from a Kantian philosophy regarding "telling a lie", it is defined as a way of evaluating motivations for action (See, [[Talk:Madoka_Kaname|"Madoka and Minding her Motive"]]). Utilitarianism is considered a [[wikipedia:Consequentialism|consequentialism]], meaning that the moral worth of an action is determined by its resulting outcome. These two bands of philosophies are completely different from each other. But I thought Kant's explanation was much more beautiful and elegant regarding the difference between telling a lie and using a "misleading truth". If Kyubey was as smart as a [[wikipedia:Vulcan_(Star_Trek)|logical Vulcan]], I believe it would use the Kantian method of telling the truth.</ref><br />
<br />
And before anyone objects by saying that Kyubey never warned the girls that becoming a mahou shoujo means getting your soul ripped from your body, we have to take a look back at [[Episode 2]]. When Mami was giving her introductions to Madoka and Sayaka, Kyubey informed the girls that it can grant any wish they want, but that the price of that wish is the production of the Soul Gem and fighting Witches. Let us disregard the obvious fact that the word ''"Soul"'' is in the name of the magical jewelry; if you read between the lines, Kyubey is telling the girls (in its subtle way) that by granting them one wish it would create a Soul Gem as its price for it. Kyubey may not spell it directly, but even with this subtle information, anyone smart enough would be able to conclude that someone's soul would be ripped to create that magical gem (at least on Kyubey's mind). In other words, Kyubey did warn and informed the girls about how Soul Gems are created, they were just not clever enough to decipher that information. <br />
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Before we end this section I would like to address a criticism regarding an issue that none of the girls who contracted by Kyubey wished to become Witches. It is true that no mahou shoujo wants to become a witch. But let us examine Kyubey's language when it asks many of those girls if they would like to make a contract. When Kyubey asks Madoka if she would like to become a mahou shoujo, what Kyubey is actually asking is if Madoka would like to stop being human. Remember, what is a mahou shoujo? They are girls who can use magic, their healing abilities and strengths are faster and superior to humans, and it is suspected if their bodies were damaged they could be replaced (this is the closest to immortality they would ever get). Now, what is to be human? It is certain it is none of what I stated previously. Humans can't do magic, they dont heal fast, and they dont have replacing body parts when they are mangled horribly. When Kyoko was angry and told Kyubey that it changed them into zombies. Kyubey's answered that it was the only way that they could become a mahou shoujo, that there would be no other way to achieve the same such results or be able to use magic effectively. For safety and efficiency reasons their souls are turn into soul gems so a mahou shoujo can do their job more effectively, making them invincible and giving them better odds to survive a battle against a Witch. Isn't that nice from Kyubey? After all, it is looking after the best interest of the girls. It would be just as crueler to send weak human girls to fight against witches, in a way the Soul Gem process is much more "humane". Kyubey would also explain that the process of becoming a Witch is just an unfortunate effect of the mahou shoujo process. If they dont want to become Witches all they have to do is not taint their souls too much. Yet, never the least, the girls accepted the risk by making a contract and becoming a mahou shoujo. And with that comes the risks of the job. <br />
<br />
===Bentham, the true monster. Mill, impractical idealism.===<br />
<br />
After studying and reviewing the information, we can conclude without a doubt that Kyubey faithfully follows a Utilitarian philosophy. But it is also clear to mention that Kyubey's utilitarianism seems to be a mixture blend of Bentham's and Mill's thinking. Sometimes Kyubey would swing to one formula of utility and then swing back when it is convenient to do so. But it remains mostly on Mill's side most of the time, with the exception of when the whole planet is devastated. One could presume to suggest that Kyubey's thinking is not "The End Justifies the Means" as much as "Using Mill's Means to attain Bentham's End". Let me be the first say that Kyubey's Utilitarianism shares some similar values to Bentham and Mill. However, because Kyubey doesn't follow one principle of utility but a different version, we have to then assume that it is neither and both for two reasons. First, Kyubey is restrained by the rules that the alien race has laid on him. If Kyubey believed Bentham's utility wholly, it would disregard their rules and force Madoka into a contract regardless of her will or the rules itself. Instead, Kyubey tries to remain within the parameters and at the same time achieve the goals given to it. Second, if Kyubey had any respect for Mill's notion of Utilitarianism, then Kyubey has failed. Mill ideal version of utility is that with time the values of Utilitarianism would create progressive thinking and moral decisions based on utility that would allow the delivery of the greatest good. If Kyubey tried to follow Mill's ideal version of Utility, then he would be the less productive Incubator in the whole Universe; at that rate the end of the universe would be guaranteed. But it isn't so much as Kyubey failed Mill as Mill failed Kyubey. The problem with Mill's thinking is that it tries to maintain the principles of utility and the moral values of individual liberty at the same time. Critics have blasted Mill's utility as being naive and contradictory to Utilitarianism, some would suggest that Mill's formula violates the principle of Utility all together. Mill has proven that it can humanize utilitarianism when it adds a moral ideal of human dignity into the formula, but those ideals are independent of utility itself. Mill's formula would never achieve the greatest good that reflects the highest virtue of human value as long as it tries to maintain it within the realm of utility.<br />
<br />
Since Kyubey is from a very advance alien race, I have to assume Kyubey's utility shares similarities to our own understanding of Utility, but at the same time it is also unique because it transcends Bentham's and Mill's thinking, thus making it into a third form of Utilitarian thinking that shares some of their values but for a different end than Bentham or Mill would conclude. This is, of course, speculation.<br />
<br />
It is very clear that many critics and detractors have accused Kyubey of being evil, a liar, and a manipulator for good measure. But I would like to point out that they have failed to understand Kyubey and his own way of thinking to demonstrate why Kyubey is wrong. Their views have been mostly on the human side of the issue. Failing to see it from Kyubey's perspective to understand Kyubey. We have to remember that it is not easy to judge an alien race that we know little about, not even their moral values, but for the sake of argument we have to at least try. According to Homura, she doesn't think Kyubey thinks itself to be evil or cruel, she believes Kyubey just have a different perspective regarding morality so it fails to understand human values. However, that doesn't mean Homura trust Kyubey or believes she can reason with it. But let us be clear, by understanding Kyubey's utilitarianism I am not trying to justify its action. Instead, I am trying to comprehend Kyubey's point of view and perspective. What I have learned from Kyubey's point of view is that the issues regarding if Kyubey is evil or not is moot. What we should be concerned is the way Kyubey sees the world, which is much more disturbing and terrifying, and the worst part is that people who think the same way as Kyubey don't think that they are evil either or that they are doing anything wrong. <br />
<br />
===Kyubey: CEO of Entropy, INC.===<br />
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If I had to describe Kyubey from any organism from our world, I would say that no organism exist that is similar to Kyubey. The closest we have is a human being. But even at that it would fail to describe Kyubey accurately, because Kyubey shares many differences than similarities with humans. Just like humans, Kyubey demonstrates high intelligence and faculties similar to humans, but unlike humans it lacks emotions; it cannot die but instead spawn new bodies; and is able to grant abilities that itself cannot exercise or posses, humans could only dream of having such abilities.<br />
<br />
So instead, rather than imagine Kyubey from any known living organism I would like to think Kyubey is similar to a non-living entity that is not just similar to Kyubey, but it paints a perfect picture of what Kyubey is. This non-living entity seems to follow Kyubey's philosophy regarding utilitarianism that is neither Bentham's or Mill's version. It uses Mill's means to attain Bentham's ends. Like Kyubey, it also has a goal to maximize utility for its own advantage. <br />
<br />
Let us remember, an alien race created an artificial entity that is highly intelligent with no emotions, these aliens bestowed upon Kyubey certain abilities and limitations but also parameters known as "rules". Kyubey is assigned with a very simple mission and duty: follow the rules stated by the alien race (it cannot force humans into a contract. It also means it cannot also lie but it is allowed the flexibility to limit his information as long as it is truthful), maximize the collection of energy to repair the universe without violating the given parameters, and protect the girls until they reach to their maximum potential. Now, let us imagine that Kyubey is not an artificial organism created by an alien race, let us think of Kyubey as a Corporation created by a group of business people. "Kyubey", as the company is known, has a business mandate: follow the national and international laws regarding trade and finances set up by an entity known as "the government". "Kyubey" as a company is not allowed to exercise illegal activities, but the laws are flexible and deregulated enough to allow for a company to pursue interests that would benefit a free market society in a very competitive enviroment, if it wishes to survive it would take advantage of the loosened rules (in other words, as long as it is withing the boundaries of the law and it is not illegal, the company is protected from liability); and "Kyubey" must maximize company profits in order to not only benefit shareholders but to also avoid a bankruptcy or being taken over by the competition. "Kyubey" believes its existence is essential for the survival of the market/financial economy (so think of the universe as a large financial consortium). Without Corporations there is no free market or capitalism, and without Incubators you can say goodbye to the universe. <br />
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I am certain some of you would think that I am overreaching with my thinking but let us just assume that my assertion is possible for the moment. One day "Kyubey" is taken to court and it stands accused of several crimes. The proceedings state that the company has violated several laws and disregarded the rights of their employees. The first criminal accusation would be false advertisement and failure to disclose information. Sayaka, the accuser, would declare that she would have never made a contract if she had known that her soul would be ripped from her body and that she would become a witch. As stated before, what Sayaka calls false advertisement, Kyubey would defend himself by stating that Sayaka failed to "read between the lines" and if she didn't understand the conditions of the contract she should have contacted a lawyer of her own. The other issue regarding becoming a Witch, "Kyubey" would explain that Sayaka had more than enough information to make an educated decision regarding the risks of the job. According with the company, Sayaka knew the risks of becoming a mahou shoujo, what happens after the facts (or in this case, death) bears no consequence, nor does it make any difference regarding occupational hazard and safety (in other words, knowing that Sayaka would become a Witch during her period of employment would not have prevented her from becoming one). Not to mention it would be reckless endangerment to send weak little girls against witches; so the company has a policy regarding safety and health to protect their employees against hazards, ergo they rip their souls to make soul gems to minimize pain and increase their magical powers. What kind of employee sues a company for trying to reduce occupational hazards? Isn't Sayaka being ungrateful? <br />
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And regarding Sayaka's objection to her "uninformed" consent. As an example, let us say that "Kyubey" is a weapons manufacturing company and they employed Sayaka to create missiles. Sayaka knows what missiles are and that they are used during military campaigns. However, Sayaka believes that the missiles would only be used to kill evil people. One day she learns that one of the missiles she helped to construct was used to blow up a building that was suspected to house enemy combatants but instead it killed innocent civilians. While it is true that "Kyubey" sold the missile to the military for the purpose of warfare. There is no way that the company could have predicted that it would be used to cause innocent casualties; the company is aware of the possibility of such scenario. But we have to remember that this future event or circumstance is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty. According to "Kyubey", becoming a witch is not a certaintity but just a possible outcome. And in any case, "Witchification" is no different than death. So knowing or not knowing, for the sake of safety and health on Sayaka's part, makes no difference. The job still comes with the same risks, anyway. Nothing has changed.<br />
<br />
But "Kyubey" would state that divulging sensitive information regarding "company secrets" would be detrimental for company morale. In fact, by not divulging sensitive information that would be a hindrance for employees to maximize their potentials, the company and employees like Sayaka would be able to achieve their potential without any unnecessary distractions. By knowing sensitive information, employees like Sayaka would lose focus and increase the potential of creating a hostile environment. <br />
<br />
As one final act, "Kyubey" would state that as a company it has a responsibility to their shareholders by maximizing its profits. People may question a company's policy and its methods of obtaining profits, but as long as no legal laws have been broken then no crime has been committed. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" would state that as a company they are obligated to make no exceptions nor reverse their company policy just because a mahou shoujo feels like what they are doing is wrong. After all, "Kyubey" is a company not a charity. It is true that Kyubey does provide an exchange for products and services, so it is not "free", there is a price for it. If Kyubey were to grant wishes for free (without collecting souls or despair energy), not only there would be a quick depletion of energy, but their company would go bankrupt. The reason Kyubey collects souls is that they need them to create more despair energy, the more despair energy Kyubey creates, the safer the universe becomes. And the more energy Kyubey has on reserve, the more energy they can use to be reinvested to hire new and more mahou shoujo. So, Kyubey as an industry does not only provide products and services, but as a company they are also protecting the universe and reinvesting their energy to provide wishes and employment to more girls. It is true that "Kyubey" is polluting their cities with curses, familiars, and witches that are detrimental to humans. But can anyone point out to any company that has never produced toxic waste (or even just normal waste) during its lifetime? And what about the benefits that many girls have obtainted? Girls like Mami were given a second life, otherwise she would be dead. Kyouko was able to avoid destitution and hunger thanks to her wish. And even Sayaka was able to get the opportunity to heal a friend. Can anyone complain that Kyubey's services are not essential to the community and society? Kyubey as a company has saved lives, provided food and housing opportunity for the destitute, and healed incurable diseases and physical disabilities; making society and the human race more productive, safer from [[wikipedia:Heat_death_of_the_universe|death heat]], and better in the long run. <br />
<br />
And as a business, the company has an obligation to be financially sound. But much more importantly, "Kyubey" is an important member of the community. After all, society and the whole human race have profited from Kyubey's products, and services. Kyubey's presence on Earth is essential for human progress. Without Kyubey's interference, humanity would never have achieved and advanced in the areas of art, culture, history, medicine, philosophy, science, technology, and other progresses. In fact, without Kyubey, humans would still be naked and living in caves. Before anyone can accuse the company of being selfish and greedy, perhaps humanity should asks themselves if they are in any better position to be self-righteous against the company after benefiting from so much? Specially, since all of human progress is thanks to the sacrifice and despair of innocent little girls.<br />
<br />
===Why is Kyubey wrong.===<br />
<blockquote>''"If you ever feel like dying for this universe, just call us."'' ~ Kyubey, [[Episode 9]].</blockquote><br />
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I would like to add one last comparison regarding Kyubey as a corporation and the philosophy of utility. As I have stated before, Kyubey used Mill's means to attain Bentham's end. What I mean is that a Corporation would try to stay within the boundaries of the law to maximize its profit and size, but it would also use Kyubey's method to eliminate its competition and achieve Bentham's end, which would be either be the elimination of all competition or achieving a total monopoly on the market. After all, the purpose of a company is to prolong its existence and to promote the idea that without them there is no free market. Just like Kyubey wants to prolong the existence of the universe and without Incubators there is no one to stop the end of the universe. But as we have observed, Kyubey's approach and solution is quite unnerving. Specially when we are asked to accept the suffering of little girls as a form of payment to enjoy the fruits of past labors and sufferings. But I would like to add one last thought. One of the reasons that utilitarianism has it critics is its attempt to use market values to achieve a noble and moral choice. This is not just reserved only to corporations; [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost%E2%80%93benefit_analysis government entities] and individuals attempt to do the same everyday[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2Rq4HJBxw&feature=relmfu]. Not only does utilitarianism fails in its noble and moral goal, but during the process we have probably noticed that humanity and the human soul has been reduced as a form of currency. Think about it, Kyubey would not accept no other form of payment but a human soul, something that it is considered to be sacred and holy (depending on your beliefs). Now suddenly, this alien creature decides that humans souls are no different than commodities to be traded. This utilitarian attempt to reduce all and everything as a commodity, including a human soul and the right of sale of it, is a degradation of our humanity that is being packaged as goods. It loses its moral value and dignity in the marketing process.<ref>''"Certain modes of valuation are appropriate to certain goods and practices. In the case of commodities, such as cars and toasters, the proper way of valuing them is to use them, or to make them and sell them for profit. But it's a mistake to treat all things as if they were commodities. It would be wrong, for example, to treat human beings as commodities, mere things to be bought and sold. That's because human beings are persons worthy of respect, not objects to be used. Respect and use are two different modes of valuation."'' Michael Sandel, "Justice" (pg 96).</ref> This causes us to rethink what makes us human and the values we hold as a civilized society. The reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is not that it is evil; the reason that we hate and fear Kyubey is what it represents. If a human soul can be reduced as a mere currency, or resource, or commodity ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IojqOMWTgv8&feature=related or a battery]), and we are willing to emulate Kyubey's methods and values, then we as humans have failed to realized and recognized our own dignity and value within ourselves. Because Kyubey may be an alien from a different world, but its values are no different from ours once we close examine it.<br />
<br />
===Closing===<br />
<br />
I would like to reiterate that this is my personal interpretation and opinion regarding Kyubey's utilitarianism and its moral values. This is not an attempt to put words on the creators of the anime series but an attempt to grasp a better understanding of it. I have used resources like the anime series, interviews, and Michael Sandel's book "Justice" to attain a better comprehension and analysis of the Kyubey character. The views of this essay are my own --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 11:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<b>Notes:</b><br />
<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
===In Opposition===<br />
<br />
The above is well written, but suffers a single, but overwhelming, flaw. As I'm not a philosopher, please bear with me, but I believe my words hold merit. The main flaw of the above article is simple: Kyubey, himself, claims to not feel emotions, and is purely logical. However, Utilitarianism is the maximisation of happiness, and the minimisation of grief, which is the opposite of Kyubey's nature - he lacks the ability to feel either happiness or grief, and as such, does not care about it whatsoever. However, he does desire to live, the most basic of all instincts. As a being that possesses only logic and the desire to survive, all of it's efforts are devoted to a logical way of living as long as physically possible. Logically, this survival would be given the priority of the survival of it's own species, survival of itself, survival of those of it's own species, the survival of prey species, and, finally, the survival of strategically advantageous (i.e., allied) species. <br />
<br />
If it's environment is reaching a physical limit to support it's existence, it acts to counter this, whether by increasing it's environment's parameters or limiting those factors acting against it. In the case of a population crisis, this would be finding more suitable ground in which to survive, or culling off competitor species, or, in an extreme case, members of it's own species. Taken to the most extreme level, that the universe is going to end eventually, even if that event is several hundred times further in the future than it's own species has lived thus far, then action must be taken to prevent or limit this collapse, so long as no more pressing matters exist. Regardless of the actual need to lengthen the life span of the universe, this is what an otherwise unoccupied, emotionless, logical species would do, and it is where the plot of the series is derived. On a similar extrapolation, Kyubey's race have conquered personal death - they can move themselves into a spare body, should they die. That, too, is an example of their attempt to control death on any level possible for them.<br />
<br />
As a logical species, Kyubey chooses actions based on mathematics. The Probability of something happening, and the Effort needed to achieve it - that is, the result of Work and Time - and the ultimate result are the core components of it's decisions. As Kyubey lacks emotions, specifically, shame and guilt, it sees no need to gain consent if it does not need it. That Kyubey does attempt to gain consent suggests that either it does need it, or that gaining consent is easier than utilising brute force upon the issue - as it is their soul, they may respond in a negative manner by pure subconscious instinct, though this is entirely speculation. However, Kyubey does not put excessive effort into making certain that it's contractors are aware of the situation that they are being put into. Kyubey is perfectly aware that it is supplying minimalist information. Logically, Sayaka or Madoka or Mami should think things through and ask for more information, as Kyubey would do. However, the terminology is intentionally misleading. The term "Soul Gem" is given in English, despite his audience being 13 year old Japanese girls. When a young Japanese person, with English being a secondary language, at best, hears the word "soul", they do not connect it to the Japanese word "Tamashii", but to pop culture, and the use of the English word as flavour text to imply a certain spirituality, especially with spirituality being a low priority subject for a classroom lesson. This goes double with magical girls, which commonly use word choices which have very little to do with the purpose of an item. For example, in Sailor Moon, there are the Witches 5, who are part of the Death Busters, and one of them has a "Fire Buster". However, there's actually 6 Witches, the Death Busters do very little busting of death, and the Fire Buster is a flame thrower, not a fire-fighting tool. Similarly, it's suggested by Kyubey that "Witch" is derived from the characters for "Magical Girl", but even to the Japanese, this is elusive, as it's considered that "Evil" (Ma) and "Magical" (Mahou) are two entirely different words, despite the character for the former being used as part of the latter. Such cases are not unusual in the Japanese language. Thus, Kyubey intentionally uses a language choice which suggests the circumstances as they are, but phrased in a way that requires fairly extensive fact checking to be certain of what's going on, in the typical manner of someone who believes themselves very intelligent. In addition, keeping the truth of the matter quite can be very helpful, as Kyubey's purpose is to instil grief upon his contractors. Usually, this takes care of itself, but if necessary, it could make a useful catalyst - for example, in the case of Mami, who seems quite stable, and seems unlikely to transform without this being pointed out to her.<br />
<br />
As for Kyoko, the probability of Kyoko ever bearing fruit may be slim, and Kyubey is not greedy. Perhaps the evolved Familiars provide as much grief as a magical girl, but at the least, it's providing that at a 5:1 ratio of kills to magical girls, in a situation where Kyoko herself is unnecessary, as a more fragile, incompetent and/or single-minded girl could be contracted to take her place. If the transformation process of Magical Girl to Witch is necessary to gather energy, then Kyoko - who is ruthless enough to avoid spending too much magical power and cold enough to survive her father's mass-murder-suicide with no transformation - will provide dividends at an extremely low probability. By supplying the most minimal level of information - or, rather, a succinct but accurate level of information, which is perfectly logical when dealing with a species with such a small communications bandwidth such as humanity - a situation in which four possibilities arises. 1) The death of Kyoko, creating a higher probability of the high-dividend, average-probability Madoka contracting. 2) Kyoko's success, resulting in Sayaka returning to normal, paving the way for an infinitely regenerating energy source. 3) Kyoko's failure, which does not positively or negatively affect Kyubey in any significant way. And 4) Kyoko's failure, followed by her transformation into a Witch, finally returning dividends on a long term investment. None of these significantly impact Kyubey in any negative manner at all, given the information on hand. Thus, Kyoko's attempt to confront Oktavia is desirable to him, and should not be prevented.<br />
<br />
I'd like to leave it here for now. As I said at the beginning, it's my opinion that all of Kyubey's actions can be explained by the desire to live, without any messy morality being involved in the process, and I've provided several examples for this, which I believe are more logically explained, and more fully intertwined with canon statements, than my predecessor's. [[User:MrSP|MrSP]] 14:16, 4 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The problem that I see is the desire to live or self preservation, an instinct, is an emotion by itself. Self-preservation is a desire to live, which sounds very "emotional". Let us say that logic indicates that what Kyubey is doing is only buying them time, that it wont stop the ultimate fate of the universe, their actions and their probability of success depends on the possibility that they will overcome entropy by harvesting enough energy. If the odds were on their favor then their acts are logical, if it is against their favor then it is illogical. Considering how Kyubey was trying so hard in getting Madoka it seems to indicate that Kyubey was getting "greedy" (for lack of a better term) and willing to sacrifice a whole planet for a short term gain (of course, I am guessing...). If this is correct then their quotas must be lacking and they may require some adjustments to maximize their energy yield. Yet as we saw Kyubey seems to have rules to follow, albeit he does bend them to his favor. If Kyubey is desperate to overcome entropy it would be much more easier just to follow a "slash and burn" policy and be damned about it. Of course, as you pointed out perhaps this method wont yield enough results, yet if we consider the size of the human population or even of the entire galaxy, even if one forced soul doesnt yield alot of energy, it may add up by the accumulative effect. Of course this is speculation. But the other issue is that we have to consider the possibility that even a civilization like Kyubey must be bounded by rules to live by, no matter how logical they are. The foundation of every civilization or society is to establish laws and rules, why? to minimize chaos and disorder so it doesn't collapse. Such a civilization would require a body politic to establish an extensive network, energy quotas, suggestions how to gather efficient energy, planetary exploration, etc, it needs an institution to run things properly. It also minimizes conflict with other groups or more advance civilizations. I wouldnt be surprised if there are other more advance alien races out there, and some of these organizations have imposed rules on Kyubey's civilization to make the whole process "more fair" and turn a blind eye at the same time and pretend everything is alright... Of course, speculation. We have no choice but to work as much as we can within the framework... And as for equating happiness with emotions. Now remember, Utilitarianism fails to grasp or define what "happiness" means or is to individuals or to society. When I say "happiness", I do not mean on the emotional joyful level, but what I mean in what it can maximize what would be beneficial to society as a whole (or at least to the most fortunate of the group), on in Kyubey's case the universe. While Kyubey doesnt have emotions, they do seek to maximize the lifespan of the universe itself, that would be their "happiness" for a lack of a better term, at the expense of the "suffering" of lesser groups or few planets. We can change "happiness" to "profit" or even to "energy" etc... it doesnt change much of the concept, just the definition but the aim is the same: maximize something at the cost of minimizing something else. IF Kyubey is driven by self preservation as you just suggested, then we have consider the possibility that not only can they feel emotion, but they are being selfish by imposing their rules and beliefs on others and disguise it as "logic". But what if they are not being selfish, just logical and what if their logic just happens to arrive and align to their own self interest and the interest of "others"? Help the universe survive and at the same time allow other worlds, not just their own, to benefit from it? This justification would be enough to convince even the most logical that what they are doing has long term benefits for the majority, at the expense of the minority. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 15:50, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I would like to also point out that Bentham's utilitarianism tries to divorce morality to justify an action that is beneficial to a group or society, a reason why it has its critics because it tries to discard the messy morality. However, there are unusual discrepancies in Kyubey's action, remember it has always been pointed out as being utilitarian, yet its version seems to differ as it tries to combine both Bentam's and Mill's and it is difficult to explain it without any further details, which is why we speculate. All I can do is trying to find a reason for this transition or discrepancy. However, to me it is not good enough to say that Kyubey's actions are driven by self-preservation that lacks any emotion behind it, if there is any logic behind their actions then we have to see it beyond just "self-preservation" and make a logical argument about it that justifies it... a drive for self-preservation is not just an attempt for the continuation of an species, but it also implies a fear of death. Do kyubey's race fears death? I dont know, but they clearly dont want the universe to end and they see a logic to prologue their existence... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 16:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Kyoko, Puella Magi, and Libertarianism ==<br />
At first I disliked the character of Kyoko because she was so unlike Mami and Sayaka, but then she wormed her way into my heart and looking at the character as a whole one can appreciate her character on its own. I will try to work withing the principle [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw4l1w0rkjs&feature=relmfu philosophy of libertarianism] to try to understand her character to better appreciate her, but also demonstrate why the character of Kyoko could be destructive to society as a whole. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
As always, this will take a while... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<b>Libertarianism: an assertion to freedom</b><br />
<br />
<b>John Locke: Life, liberty and the pursuit of wishes</b><br />
<br />
<b>My Soul Gem, My Choice</b><br />
<br />
<b>A Free Market Solution for a Puella Magi Problem</b><br />
<br />
<b>The Puella Magi Cartel</b><br />
<br />
<b>Puella Magi: Girls of Justice or Magical Mercenaries?</b><br />
<br />
<b>Happiness does not equate freedom. Freedom does not equate happiness.</b><br />
<br />
<s><b>Puellae Magi: a PR Illusion and the Issue of False Interpretation.</b></s></div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Madoka_Kaname&diff=45137Madoka Kaname2012-08-19T07:33:42Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div><blockquote>''"If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time."'' - Madoka Kaname, [[Episode 12]].</blockquote><br />
<br />
{{Infobox_character<br />
|name=Madoka Kaname<br />
|image=[[File:Madoka Chara Sheet.jpg|300px]]<br />
|jname=鹿目 まどか (Kaname Madoka) <br />
|voices=<br />
Japanese: [http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=creator&creatorid=1625 Aoi Yuuki]<br />English: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=95337 Christine Marie Cabanos]<br />Italian: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=70851 Joy Saltarelli]<br />
|age=14 <!-- via CM --><br />
|weapon=Bow<br />
}}<br />
'''Madoka Kaname''', the protagonist and title character, is a gentle and friendly 14 year old girl. Living an ordinary life, Madoka has a loving family and is surrounded by good friends. One day she had a dream of a mysterious girl who was fighting an ominous creature. The next day, [[Homura Akemi|Akemi Homura]], the girl from her dream, came to her class as a transfer student.<br />
<br />
==Official Info==<br />
* Character profile:<br />
** A good-natured and ordinary eighth-grader. She is the health coordinator in her class.<br />
** Even her bow-wielding magical girl form projects an air of kind friendliness. Her choker bears a pink gem.<br />
**[[Ume Aoki|Ms. Aoki]]’s Design Check!: I drew her keeping in mind that as the main character she needs to be average, but also an exceptionally good girl. Hence her puffy, high-placed twin tails. The design and color of her ribbons took a lot of work, but in the end calmed down to something simple.<br />
** Magical girl outfit: Madoka was drawn to be the very image of a magical girl. I added an almost fairy tale-ish hints, so hopefully female viewers will be charmed by her as well. (Aoki)<br />
** Full of tiny frills, with ribbons arranged at the neck, waist, and on the shoes. It’s perfectly “cute”, and seemingly unsuited for combat, but…<br />
** School uniform: Designed to convey the classy image of a private girls’ school, while not being -too- normal. Its distinguishing point is the small hole at the nape of the neck. (Aoki)<br />
** Of the heroines shown here, Madoka has the most childish body. Her legs are clad in pure, virginal white over-knee socks.<br />
* From the [[Pre-Broadcast November Advertisement|pre-broadcast November promotional video]]:<br />
** "A gentle 2nd year middle school girl who thinks of friends before herself."<br />
** "If anything could be granted with a magic…"<br />
** "What would you do?" <br />
* From the anime:<br />
** Madoka's mother, [[Junko Kaname|Junko]], commented that she has always been a good child and never lies.<br />
** Kyubey, Homura and Mami confirmed that Madoka has great magical potential.<br />
** Madoka is the only one without a transformation sequence as a magical girl within the Anime series.<br />
** Madoka became {{spoiler|the Embodiment of Hope in the finale.}}<br />
* A [[100 Questions|100 Question Survey]] has been published revealing details about Madoka such as her likes, dislikes, hobbies, and physical attributes.<br />
**Birthday: October 3<br />
**Blood Type: A<br />
**Height: Slightly less than 150cm (4'11"). Production Note shows a [[:Media:PN_10.jpg|height revision]] to 152cm (5'0").<br />
**Shoe size: 22 JP (Women's 5.5 US, Children's 4 US, 36 EU, 3 UK)<br />
* According to a [[NewType 2011-07]] interview with [[Gen Urobuchi]], the character Madoka is written based on Yuno from Hidamari Sketch (Aoki Ume's creation).<br />
** "To be honest, Madoka, the protagonist, is a pretty unusual character for my writing style."<br />
** "A foreign character that did not exist inside myself."<br />
** "I wrote the screenplay as if Yunocchi (from Hidamari Sketch) is to be put as the protagonist. I even had the preparation that seiyuu Asumi (Kana)-san would play her (lol)." <br />
** "I imagined all the other characters by starting from “Madoka = Yuno”."<br />
** "And every time I got Yunocchi to cry I got hated by the Hidamari fans more (lol)."<br />
<br />
==Trivia==<br />
* The characters of her last name mean "deer" (鹿) and "eye"(目), respectively.<br />
* Her last name can also be used as a first name.<br />
* Her last name sounds the same as (要), a word which means "keystone" or "hub".<br />
* Her first name is written in hiragana which has no particular meaning. However, when written in kanji, it can mean "round" or "tranquil" (円).<br />
* Madoka owns many stuffed animals in [[Madoka's House#Madoka's Room|her room]].<br />
* Madoka and [[Mami]] are the only Magical Girls known who are never seen having a mark on any of their fingernails. [[Homura]], [[Kyoko]] and [[Sayaka]] all have marks on their left middle fingers, matching the shape of the emblem of their respective Soul Gem.<br />
* Madoka is never seen with her Soul Gem in a ring form.<br />
* Madoka loves cats like Homura.<br />
* Aoi Yuuki (Madoka's VA) really likes [[Kyoko]] and she claimed that Kyoko is her wife. You can hear her confession in the [[:Talk:Drama_CD_2#Info_and_DL|Magical Girls Tea Party]] bonus CD.<br />
** In the commentary for [[Episode 5]] Aoi Yuki declares her love for Kyoko and desires to marry her. Ai Nonaka questions her choice and informs her all she ever does is eat. Aoi Yuki is ok with this and declares she would just adjust.<br />
*** In same comentary Chiwa Saitou sounds annoyed, some suggested perhaps she is jealous. But the question is, jealous of whom?<br />
** Aoi Yuuki [[:file:Going gaga for kyouko.jpg|goes even more gaga]] for Kyoko in the audio commentaries for [[Episode 7]]: "The one I love, it's Kyoko-tan." "Kyoko-tan is the absolute best!" "it's like she isn't trying to be cool, but she's still REALLY cool." <br />
**In the [[Talk:Key_Animation_Note|"C81 Aniplex Madoka Special Talk CD"]], not even two minutes has passed and Aoi Yuki's already fangirling over Kyoko-tan~ <br />
*Aoi Yuuki (Madoka) is trying to form [[:file:Aoi yuuki yuri harem.jpg|her own harem]]<br />
*Urobuchi in his audio commentary on BD/DVD 3 explains that he felt like Aoi Yuki was born for the role of Madoka. What he means is that she doesn't force herself into the role of becoming her character and she leaves the impression of being a natural airhead, but in a good way.<br />
*Madoka's last form is known as [[Blu-Ray_Volume_6_Booklet#Original_Design_Artworks_Six|Ultimate Madoka]]. Prior to this information, fans called her form "MadoKami", Godoka, or Goddess Madoka.<br />
**In one of the original artwork designs, it is noted that Madoka is holding a [[wikipedia:Shinai|shinai sword]] or a bow.<br />
*Madoka is a [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki Grade A Zettai Ryouiki] in her school uniform<br />
*Official information indicates that Madoka was born in October 3, making her a [[wikipedia:Libra_(astrology)|Libra]].<br />
*Wehihihi ♥ "ウェヒヒヒヒ" is an onomatopoeia for Madoka's trademark laughter. You can hear it [http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14436710 here.]<br />
<br />
==Observation==<br />
<br />
===Characterization===<br />
<blockquote>''"Madoka, you have grown to be a good girl. You don't lie and you dont do anything bad. You always try to do what is right. You are a wonderful child."'' - Junko, [[Episode 6]].</blockquote> <br />
<br />
* Madoka is a nice kid, somewhat naive due to being a teenager.<br />
** Friendly and gentle toward Homura, a new transfer student {{spoiler|no matter which timeline}}.<br />
** Wanted to be helpful to other people.<br />
** Admired Mami and was severely affected by her.{{spoiler| death}}<br />
** Constantly worried about Sayaka's safety and willing to face danger for her friend.<br />
*Madoka always tries to call other main characters their first names with postfix (-chan or -san) if possible. It may indicate that she is eager to get close to others. The only exception is Kamijou. Madoka might think it is not a good idea to get too close to him since she believes he could potentially become Sayaka's boyfriend. <br />
**This is confirmed in the PSP, when Madoka finally calls him by his first name, after Sayaka made advances with him in one of the endings.<br />
* A level-headed person, capable of making decisions on her own.<br />
** Didn't believe Homura is "totally evil" as she was told, and tried to understand her better based on what she observed.<br />
** Didn't wish to {{spoiler|revive Mami, who is just a new acquaintance}}, but was ready to sacrifice herself for her best friend [[Sayaka]]. This added to the realistic aspect of Madoka's character.<br />
** Tried to prevent Sayaka and Kyoko's unnecessary fight, and pursued Sayaka to solve conflicts by negotiation instead of violence.<br />
** Looked for advise from her mother without mentioning magic.<br />
** Can answer immediately to [[Kyubey]] that {{spoiler|even if the Incubators have good reason to collect energy, they are still humanity's enemy.}} This is demonstrates her understanding of humanity.<br />
** Kept calm toward Homura's revelation and reminded Sayaka not to stir conflicts between teammates (TL3).<br />
** Acted fast to take out {{spoiler|Mami}} and saved Homura (TL3).<br />
** {{spoiler|Used the last grief seed to save Homura because she wanted the latter to prevent a tragic outcome (TL3).}}<br />
** Thought of a wish that would bring the most benefits to other people based on the info she had.<br />
* The difference between the character of Madoka and the character of Sayaka: While both are good-hearted girls, Madoka never judges based on first impressions, never makes rash assumptions, and has the mentality to deal with truth. <br />
* Madoka's wishes always stemmed from her kindness.<br />
** From what we know until now, she contracted with Kyubey in order to {{spoiler|save a cat whom had just died in front of her (TL1), save Homura from Walpurgisnacht (TL4), and release Magical Girls in the past and future from their cursed fate of becoming witches (Episode 12)}}.<br />
** Asked to accompany Sayaka on her witch hunt just so that if the latter was ever in danger, she could make a wish and rescue Sayaka. She nearly made this wish in [[Episode 8]].<br />
** Madoka's kindness is one of the major reasons why Homura is so drawn to her. From [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD 1 ''"Memories of you"'']], {{spoiler|the reason Madoka became a Magical Girl in the first timeline is to save a cat which had been run over by a car. Madoka also treated Homura very nicely from the beginning, who at that time was being bullied. We also learn that whenever Madoka made a contract and become a Magical Girl, she would act much more confident since it gave her a sense of purpose. Homura's interventions during the course of the anime prevented this change.}}<br />
*According with Urobuchi, he made Junko a [[Blu-Ray_Volume_4_Booklet#Gen_Urobuchi_.28Screenplay_for_All_Episodes.29_.26_Akiyuki_Shinbo_.28Director.29_Conversation_Part_1|strong woman]] so Madoka would want to emulate her strength and courage.<br />
**It is possible that the reason Madoka feels so useless prior to becoming a magical girl, is that she consciously fails to measure to her own mother.<br />
***It is suggested that the reason Madoka is so miserable is that she wishes for power in order to be selfless so that she won't be miserable any more. Kyubey uses this to manipulate Madoka's thinking into making her wish through her guilt. He tries to manipulate Madoka into a belief that she can be free from her misery by making a selfless wish.<br />
***Without the wish and the life experience as a magical girl, Madoka's character never grows and develops into a courageous heroine. However, her life experience as a scared teenage girl, constantly crying and mourning the death of so many, always wanting to do what's right yet feeling powerless, the failure of attempting to save friends and strangers, and the sorrow she feels for the victims of innocent girls {{spoiler|deceived by a calculating cold alien allows Madoka to finally develops the courage to confront her fears to save Homura and the world, instead of succumbing to despair and running away, Madoka finally grows up. The scene with her mother in Episode 11 leaves that impression.}}<br />
*In [[Episode 6]], Junko and Madoka had a conversation on how difficult it is to do the right thing, even when no one is in the wrong (per say). Junko's advice was for Madoka to be on the wrong against her friend to solve the problem, even if it means that her friend would hate her for it. In [[Episode 11]] Junko confronts Madoka to stop her from getting into the danger of the storm, Madoka reminds her mother that she is a good girl and never does anything wrong but she tells her she needs to do this, a throwback to their earlier conversation. Madoka knows that what she is doing will worry her family, but she also knows that she must disobey her mother to save her family and her town. This conversation between Junko and Madoka earns her mother's trust.<br />
* In the [[Drama CD 2|Drama CD ''"Sunny Day Life"'']] Madoka ''used'' to get good grades, but her duties as a magical girl are interfering with her studies.<br />
** For what is worth, Madoka's grades are still better than Sayaka's.<br />
<br />
===Important Plot Points===<br />
* [[Episode 8]]: Kyubey claimed Madoka's power to be godlike, to the point where she could even change the laws of the universe if she wished for it.<br />
* [[Episode 10]]: {{spoiler|In the first timeline, Madoka along with Mami saved Homura from a familiar. She died during the fight with Walpurgis Night. In the second timeline, Madoka turned into a witch for the first time, revealing to Homura the link between Magical Girls and Witches. In a later timeline, Madoka killed Mami in order to save Homura, as Mami lost control of herself and had just killed Kyoko. This is also the timeline in which Madoka asked Homura to go back in time to prevent her from becoming a Magical Girl.}} Madoka's power increased exponentially {{spoiler|after every timeline. The first time showed she was an ordinary magical girl. In later timeline she had enough power to defeat Walpurgis in one shot, was capable of destroying the entire planet within 10 days in her witch form, and satisfied all Kyubey's energy quotas of the Earth.}} <br />
* [[Episode 11]]: {{spoiler|Homura's time repeats had linked multiple parallel universes together with Madoka's fate as their center. With every reset, Homura would force yet another parallel universe to be centered around Madoka. The accumulated karma is the reason why Madoka's potential power is so great.}} Hearing the revelations from Kyubey regarding the history of Magical Girls, Madoka was deeply hurt and thus wanted to save these girls from despair.<br />
* [[Episode 12]]: Madoka {{spoiler|wished to erase all witches in every dimension, in every timeline, with her own hands. This created a paradox because Madoka would eventually erase her own witch self, while she must continue to exist and destroy other witches. This paradox resulted in Madoka escaping the bounds of reality and ascending to godhood. Since Madoka never existed as a human in this new reality, she is no longer remembered by anyone, except for Homura. It has been suggested that Sayaka also remembers her in the new timeline as well, as Sayaka confesses to her in Episode 12 that she has caused her best friend a lot of trouble; this could be interpreted as Sayaka having learnt of her unfortunate fate of turning into a witch in the other timelines, an outcome which clearly inflicted a great deal of emotional hurt on Madoka. }}<br />
<br />
==Speculation==<br />
* Some fans speculate that Madoka presumably made a wish for a large cake in one of the timelines, under the influence of Mami.<br />
** However, this is highly debatable. {{spoiler|Her original wish to save Amy would still apply if her circumstances to the event remains the same.}}<br />
* Theoretically there is also the danger that, should Madoka become extremely powerful and turn into a witch, her power may be enough to destroy not only Earth, but the entire universe.<br />
** INCREDIBLY unlikely. Kyubey's species is (if they can be trusted) trying to save the universe in the first place, not trying to destroy it. They wouldn't create something they can't take down.<br />
*** Then again, Kyubey remarked in the fourth timeline that he didn't know Madoka would turn out to be so powerful. While in this timeline he probably knows (and definitely doesn't care) that the witch form of Madoka could destroy the Earth, he may not know the full extent of her power.<br />
*** Madoka's wish includes a hidden if-then clause {{spoiler|to prevent her from ever becoming a witch}}. Because her wish is to {{spoiler|erase all witches before they're born with her own hands, she has the power to erase her own witch from existence}}. Which is what we see happen.<br />
* It is speculated that any wish Madoka ever made would be twisted because of the nature of the wish, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey suspects that as long as the motives are selfish, the wish will always be twisted because the wishers' desire would always fail to meet their expectation.<br />
** It is speculated that Madoka realized that as long as her thinking was selfish or incorrect, then her wish would also be twisted. It is suspect that Madoka contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in [[Episode 11]], without being caught into the snare of the wish's trap. {{spoiler|It is suspected that Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence.}}<br />
*** A Philosophical analysis tries to determine Madoka's motive, [[Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive|Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive]]<br />
*An argument can be said that Madoka has two ways to develop her courage. One is through Kyubey by magic (which is the easiest path); the other way is more difficult and hurtful, the painful life experience and lessons she receives through friends, family members, and from strangers. But the most influential character in Madoka's life would be her mother, her source of wisdom, courage, and strength.<br />
** The [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD "Memories of you"]], states that Madoka used to have low self-esteem and doubts about herself until she became a magical girl.<br />
* It is suspected that the series is attempting to show the journey of a little girl growing up from a simple life that is then thrown into the realm of magic. From her innocent eyes she perceives the magical world to be good, fantastic, and pleasing. But once Madoka experiences the dark nature of the magic world, she attempts to escape from the dark world of magic and at the same time evade the cynical world of reality. During her scene with her mother, Madoka attempts to move from the hopeless world of reality into the realm of adulthood. However, because Madoka still retains her hopes and dreams some would suggest that Madoka, rather than being regressed into a childish person, is growing into a hopeful adult that dreams for a better future.<br />
** This is considered incorrect. In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption—this is one of the most important metaphors in the anime (If we were never corrupted, we would never be "mature", our true images, when not corrupted, are images of naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion). When one becomes an adult, most likely she becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that she cannot resonate with other people and the power of the light side (hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity" - "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart - the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep within her.<br />
* I concur. In the anime, Kyubey refers to the magical girls as "puella" (in the title, which should suggest even greater significance). Puella, as he phrased it, referred to an immature girl. He also mentioned that these girls "grow up" into witches, implying that with maturity comes darkness and pain. The "adulthood" that is referenced in this series refers mostly to the dark side of humanity. <br />
** During the old world, "maturity" is essentially the corruption of a girl's adolescence. Kyubey's process is an attempt to uncover the darkness and selfish nature of the girls by amplifying it during the developing period into a witch. Is not an issue of purity as much as an issue of naivete and inexperience innocence; Kyubey corrupts these girls because they haven't been exposed or experienced the gritty reality of the world. Their lives as magical girls shatter their ideal views of a mahou shoujo, in the case of Kyoko as an example. Even Madoka became a Witch, perhaps as a statement of the flawed nature of humanity. But there was also a message of hope, Ultimate Madoka, a version of hope and sacrifice that defeated her Superwitch counterpart. This new entity born of the same metamorphosis process overcame the corrupting process of the system and developed into a much more mature Madoka. The reason for this new change is because Madoka made her wish that reflected her part as a sensible young adult, with the guidance of self reflection and wise counsel from others. The previous Madoka versions failed because they didn't reach their natural maturity when they made their wishes; they made their wishes with the mental view of an innocent child who didnt fully mature or understood the world. This new Madoka carries with her the hopes of magical girls, not just her own. However, as a responsible adult she must fade from the world and help many girls by taking their impurities with her. Madoka knows that she cannot abandon them, no matter how much she would miss her family and friends. This new Madoka has inhered a new sense of maturity and adult responsibility. The process of maturing into a better person requires Madoka to inherit the traits that comes with adulthood. It doesnt mean that Madoka becomes a better adult automatically nor a corrupt adult either. It just means that Madoka cannot grow into maturity without taking the elements of adulthood with her. In the series, adulthood can much as mean corruption as well as a new sense of guardianship. In this new sense, maturity and adulthood are not exclusive. One can become an adult without maturing (a witch), but one cannot mature without becoming an adult. One great example of Madoka's maturity is respecting the magical girls' wishes and dreams by not undoing their wishes or undoing their deaths. Another example is Madoka's acceptance of the need of a system to repair the damage done to the universe. Madoka's system is not perfect but she attempts to adjust it to make it more fair. Rather than radically alter the world to an "ideal version" (or paradise, as [[Kriemhild Gretchen]] tried), Madoka accepts the world as it is and tries to work within it. Madoka is in the process of growing into a fine woman, just like her mother Junko.<br />
*** Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the magical girls in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purest souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but of all people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts are blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the magical girls in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption(absorbing the greatest darkness) from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels; in the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults (people whose true heart are blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, as stated, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonates with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart (subconsciousness) is like (the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings alone are all that I live for, what will create my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
**** I would like to point out that there is a contradiction. If only the purity of Madoka's soul can save the girls. Then what does one make of the other girls? If Madoka is so pure and the reason she became a Witch was because of the corruption tainting her heart, then what changed in the end? If magical girls are not selfish, does that make them selfless? If so, then why couldn't they overcome their own corruption? One cannot be selfless and selfish at the same time, this in essence is a contradiction. To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective. Mami wanted to live but she regretted her choice because she didn't think of saving her family at the time. Sayaka wanted to heal Kyosuke because she felt sorry for him, but she also admits too late that she also wanted his love. This is why Kyubey knows that any wish will be corrupted, because it gets twisted by its own logic.<br />
***** The taint made them selfish, this means the taint blinds them from seeing hope, and thus they're only controlled by their grief and despair. Madoka has selfish desires, but they vanished so quickly inside Madoka's heart because they're powerless, until Madoka is tainted by the darkness of the witch she had defeated(corruption thus pass from one to the other, and it is non-decreasing, like entropy). It is not the girls are not selfish at all, it is that though they're basically selfless, and they're much more selfless than most people, they have a desire to protect their own hearts. When darkness blinds them, their dark side is magnified while their good side being blinded, thus they become witches(notice that this is not a necessary cause of a magical girl being turned into a witch). One can be selfless and selfish at the same time, we have both the nature of selflessness and selfishness(desire to protect oneself), and when darkness blinds one, the two parts of us would be conflicting, and darkness may(or may not) win at the end. However, I do agree with this "To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective.". <br />
*****Unlike Sayaka, Madoka probably gets corrupted not because her wish gets twisted. It is possible her wish only got twisted after she became a witch, not before it, so perhaps it is not causing her transformation into a witch. As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected.<br />
******This is contradictory, all wishes get twisted according to Kyubey, because it never achieves the results one ever wants or expects. This is part of why girls gent transformed into Witches, it is part of the metamorphosis. This is already stated in [[Episode 11]]. Unless a counter-proof is provided, this is highly unlikely. In the case of Kyoko, while her wish was her innocent attempt to help her father, she failed to realized that she did not ask for her father's consent or opinion. Instead he felt he was used without his consent and that the magic spell was forced upon him.<br />
***This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor. This is, as it has been said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
****An argument can be said that its message is also about the hope of humanity, that even beyond the shadow of corruption there is a veil of hope for those who strife for it. Madoka, instead of turning her back to a corrupt world, decided she wanted to save it. If the world is corrupt, then it is assumed that is beyond saving. Instead, Madoka sacrificed herself to change the world into a better place. The new world is not perfect, it is still plagued with flaws and corruption, but it is also a little bit fair and merciful. <br />
***** When it is said that the world is hurrying to its ruin, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, it simply means that without people's resonance with hope, without any change, the world will surely destroy itself. But there is always hope, as what Madoka has shown to viewers - hope can shatter all the darkness, and change the nature of universe, which is what will save humanity.<br />
***Madoka's maturity, as it has been stated, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. The words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".<br />
****This observation is essential to understanding the anime, it underlines that the story is of "coming of age" in an imperfect world. However, the series is not an attempt to attack adulthood, but illuminate the flaws of a cruel world that children are forced to grow into. The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers.<br />
*****It is suggested that the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood".<br />
<br />
==Magazine Article==<br />
*[[NewType_2011-07#Madoka_Character_Description|July's NewType article]]<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Kazumi Magica==<br />
[[File:Kazumi madoka.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
* Madoka's silhouette appeared once during Juubey's explanation about Magical Girl system. She also makes a single-panel cameo in the extra pages in the first volume of the collected edition.<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Oriko Magica==<br />
<blockquote>''"How can you be so calm, Homura-chan? Why? Why are you only saving me? You have such an incredible power, Homura-chan!!" <br \ > "If you're going to abandon everyone and run away, then you shouldn't save me...!"'' - Madoka, [[Oriko_Magica#Chapter_5:_That.27s_what_I.27m_here_for|Puella Magi Oriko Magica, Chapter 5]].</blockquote><br />
* Madoka appears in Chapter 3, asking [[Homura]] to go home with her, along with [[Sayaka]] and [[Hitomi]]. She is well protected by Homura and isn't aware of Magical Girl system.<br />
* She appears in Chapter 4 for one page. She is shown with her friends Homura, Sayaka and Hitomi going out for snacks after school.<br />
* In chapters 5 through 7, Mitakihara Junior High was attacked by [[Oriko]] and [[Kirika]]. Oriko spoke to the school through the school's broadcast system, and seemed to give a threatening look to Madoka as she claimed she defeat a creature of ultimate despair that will descend upon them. As a witch's barrier forms over the school, Madoka is separated from her friends attacked by familiars. Homura saves her in time, but Madoka demands to know why she does not help the other students. Homura knows she cannot save everyone, and wanted to try to save Madoka anyway. Madoka apologized as Homura puts her in a protective barrier so familiars cannot attack her and left to defeat the perpetrators. Madoka escaped from the protective barrier created by Homura, and tried to help Homura with Sayaka and Hitomi. {{spoiler|Madoka was Oriko's real target. The white magical girl wanted to kill her before she could contract and become a magical girl herself, and then the most powerful witch ever. She was killed by Oriko at the very end, when they were dying Oriko used a shard of Kirika's witch body to impale Madoka through the torso. Once Oriko died and the witch barrier was lifted, Hitomi and Sayaka mourning for the dead Madoka became visible.}}<br />
<br />
==Madoka in Madoka Magica Portable==<br />
{|class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" style="width:100%;"<br />
|-<br />
!style="text-align:left; padding:10px;"|Warning, this section contains spoilers on game endings.<br />
|-<br />
|style="padding:10px; background:#fff;"|<br />
<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Gallery==<br />
<br />
=== Official art ===<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Kaname Anime Design.jpg|Initial design<br />
File:Madoka Kaname Original Design.jpg|Original character design by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Madoka morning pajama.png|<br />
File:Sleepover.jpg|Madoka having a sleepover with friends<br />
File:Madoka bd1 4koma.jpg|Translated [[Ume Aoki|Ume]] 4koma from Madoka BD volume 1<br />
File:BD 4 Ume 4koma TL.jpg|Translated Ume 4koma from Madoka BD volume 4<br />
File:Autographed illustration umeaoki.JPG|Autographed illustration by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Ume madoka kyubey.jpg<br />
File:Ume aoki dojinshi madoka.jpg|[[Ume Aoki]]'s Dojinshi "RKGKMDK"<br />
File:Apricot +6.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup 2.jpg<br />
File:Madoka designs 1.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 2.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 3.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 4.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 5.jpg<br />
File:408.5.jpg|Animedia 2011-06<br />
File:Megami 04.2011 Madoka Pin-up.jpg|Megami magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:Nyantype 04.2011 Madoka Illustration.jpg|Nyantype magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:BD 1 Scan 8.jpg|from the Blu-Ray Volume 1 Booklet.<br />
File:MadokainKazumi.png|Madoka as drawn by Takashi Tensugi, the artist for [[Kazumi Magica]].<br />
File:MadokainOriko.png|Madoka as she appears in [[Oriko Magica]].<br />
File:Newtype 07 2011 p18 p19.jpg<br />
File:Madohomu prodsketch.jpg|Early production sketch of Madoka with Homura.<br />
File:PN 83.jpg<br />
File:Kisseymadokasketch.jpg|Goddess Madoka from the [[Puella Magi Production Notes|production notes]].<br />
File:Madoka magica anthology 1.jpg|Madoka Magica Anthology 1<br />
File:Ultimate Madoka settei information 6 official art BD 6.jpg|Ultimate Madoka by Ume Aoki.<br />
File:PN 09.jpg<br />
File:PN 56.jpg<br />
File:PN 57.jpg<br />
File:PN 58.jpg<br />
File:PN 59.jpg<br />
File:Animedia_2012-02_03.jpg|Animedia magazine, February 2012. Madoka's ring and fingernail mark as a magical girl are visible.<br />
File:618624.jpg<br />
File:20111112_3d97ad-2.jpg<br />
File:574169-1.jpg|Notice how Madoka's Soul Gem ring and fingernail marking are visible.<br />
File:Chibi_Madoka.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Screenshots ===<br />
==== Madoka as a regular girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Op_ep6_vs_ep5.jpg|Madoka x Madoka in the opening animation<br />
File:Madoka night clothes.jpg|Closeup of sleepy-eyed Madoka in the OP<br />
File:Madoka sleep on QB.gif|Sleepy Madoka<br />
File:Madoka is shy.gif|Madoka is shy<br />
File:Madoka family.gif|Madoka's family<br />
File:Madoka everyday life.gif|Madoka everyday life<br />
File:Madoka_ Sayaka_Hitomi.gif|Madoka & friends<br />
File:Madoka wakes up.gif|Madoka wakes up<br />
File:Madoka_Sayaka_Hitomi_playing.gif|Madoka Sayaka Hitomi playing<br />
File:Kaname-madoka.jpg|Madoka Kaname<br />
File:Screenshot madoka fascinating.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-loveletter.PNG|Madoka daydreaming about getting a love letter.<br />
File:Madoka-ponytail.jpg|Madoka with a ponytail<br />
File:Madoka crying.gif|Madoka crying<br />
File:Madoka received a gift.gif|Madoka received a gift <br />
File:Madoka is upset.gif|Madoka is upset<br />
File:Madoka_Sketch.jpg|A self-portrait. Drawing is one of Madoka's hobbies.<br />
File:Madoka hands.jpg|Closeup of Madoka's hands in [[Episode 10]] (TBS version), Timeline 1, when she is walking [[Homura]] to the nurse's office. She is known to be contracted by then. Note no Soul Gem ring or fingernail mark.<br />
File:Madoka tied up on the wheel of time.gif|Madoka tied up on the wheel of time<br />
File:Kaname_Madoka.png<br />
File:340798-madoka.jpg<br />
File:Ep6_madoka_long_hair.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000108.jpg<br />
File:464082.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000272-1.jpg<br />
File:Puella110_000043.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000292.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a Magical Girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-dodging.jpg|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka-dodging.gif|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka hug Homura.gif|Madoka hug Homura<br />
File:Madoka-mahou-shoujo.jpg|Madoka Kaname, Total Badass.<br />
File:Madoka hands 2.jpg|Madoka is purifying [[Homura]]'s Soul Gem in [[Episode 10]]'s Timeline 3. Again, note no fingernail mark.<br>[[:File:Madoka is purifying Homuras Soul Gem.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokamercy.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-soul-gem.jpg|Madoka's soul gem<br />
File:Madoka.png<br />
File:Tumblr_lk2ccuqv5G1qb7j0bo1_1280.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000091.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h50m38s0.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m14s99.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m45s157.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m48s189.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m54s246.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m59s46.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magika-10-mbs-x264-1920x1080-mp4-00001.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-10-large-06.jpg<br />
File:Madoka transformation_PSP.gif|Madoka's transformation in PSP GAME<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a witch ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-grief-seed.png|Madoka/Kriemhild's grief seed.<br />
File:Madoka-witch-first.jpg|Madoka's witch transformation in the second timeline.<br />
File:Kaname witch form power.jpg|Madoka's witch form.<br />
File:Madoka the Ultimate Witch.jpg|A closeup of the face of the ultimate witch form of Madoka born as a result of her wish in the story timeline.<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Fanart ===<br />
{{fanart}}<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Superfriends.png|Many experts believe something sort of like this happened after the final episode of Madoka Magica ended<br />
File:Madoka fuels the Universe.png|<br />
File:Aoki_ume_madoka_doujin_art_highrez.png|Fan coloring of Ume's work<br />
File:Madokami art front back.jpg|Madoka as the Goddess/concept of Hope<br />
File:Fan creation Madoka Soul Gem.jpg|Fan jewelry creation of Madoka's Soul Gem with a pink nebula inside (?) or a pink rose bud (?)<br />
File:MadoKami gundam.jpg|<br />
File:Scary madokami.jpg|You shall have no other gods before Me. That includes that wannabe Haruhi.<br />
File:MadoKami and Charlotte.jpg|Madoka rescues Charlotte.<br />
File:Madoka evolution magical girl.jpg|Madoka has evolved into MadoKami! <br />
File:It's tough to be a goddess.gif|No Mahou Shoujo Predator? But they are practically born into the hunting tradition!<br />
File:Madoka learning how to befriend.png|Madoka learning from the master.<br />
File:Meet the time traveler.jpg|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=36lSzUMBJnc Meet the Goddess]<br />
File:Namacha I Won't Allow That.png|MadoKami already abusing her Goddess powers, and we are fine with this.<br />
File:Madoprince homuprincess.jpg<br />
File:Chibimadokami.jpg|MadoKami died for our HHHNNNNNGGGGG~!<br />
File:Madoka pixel mugen.gif<br />
File:MadoKami all powerful fanart.jpg|''Thou Shall Have no Other Anime gods Before Me.''<br />
File:Madoka ;p fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka afro op fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka Ben-to.jpg|"And thus begins the "that character sounds like Madoka, imagine if she was the one to say that" adventures with Aoi Yuuki's characters.<br />
File:Madokami bow arrow aiming posture fanart.jpg<br />
File:AeFLl-1.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Miscellaneous ===<br />
<br />
==== Madoka's bow ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Bow.jpg|Rendition of Madoka's bow; it looks like a branch with a rose on its end<br />
File:Madoka-bow-firing.PNG|Madoka's bow in action<br />
File:Madoka-firing.jpg|You're gonna get befriended!<br>[[:File:Madoka shooting one arrow.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokas-arrow.jpg|A close-up of Madoka's arrow<br />
File:Madoka-multishot.jpg|Madoka using Multi-Shot<br>[[:File:Madoka multi shots.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:PN 13.jpg|Sketches from production notes.<br />
File:PN 14.jpg<br />
File:PN 22.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Aoi Yuki ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:BLT Aoi Yuki.jpg|Aoi Yuki. BLT magazine, 2011-6.<br />
File:Animedia 05.2011 Aoi Yuki DATA FILE.png|Aoi Yuki [[Animedia_2011-05|Data file]].<br />
File:Aoi yuki madoka.jpg<br />
File:Seiyuu aoi yuuki 2008 article picture.jpg<br />
File:Magical Girl Otona Anime 08.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Kriemhild Gretchen]], Madoka's witch form.<br />
* [[GetNavi 2011-12|GetNavi 2011-12]]<br />
* [[Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)|Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)]]<br />
* [[Animedia_2011-05#Aoi_Yuki_.28Madoka.29_Data_File|Aoi Yuki's Data file]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*{{pixiv_tag|鹿目まどか}}<br />
*{{booru_tag|danbooru|kaname_madoka}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Characters]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Madoka_Kaname&diff=45136Madoka Kaname2012-08-19T07:31:58Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div><blockquote>''"If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time."'' - Madoka Kaname, [[Episode 12]].</blockquote><br />
<br />
{{Infobox_character<br />
|name=Madoka Kaname<br />
|image=[[File:Madoka Chara Sheet.jpg|300px]]<br />
|jname=鹿目 まどか (Kaname Madoka) <br />
|voices=<br />
Japanese: [http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=creator&creatorid=1625 Aoi Yuuki]<br />English: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=95337 Christine Marie Cabanos]<br />Italian: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=70851 Joy Saltarelli]<br />
|age=14 <!-- via CM --><br />
|weapon=Bow<br />
}}<br />
'''Madoka Kaname''', the protagonist and title character, is a gentle and friendly 14 year old girl. Living an ordinary life, Madoka has a loving family and is surrounded by good friends. One day she had a dream of a mysterious girl who was fighting an ominous creature. The next day, [[Homura Akemi|Akemi Homura]], the girl from her dream, came to her class as a transfer student.<br />
<br />
==Official Info==<br />
* Character profile:<br />
** A good-natured and ordinary eighth-grader. She is the health coordinator in her class.<br />
** Even her bow-wielding magical girl form projects an air of kind friendliness. Her choker bears a pink gem.<br />
**[[Ume Aoki|Ms. Aoki]]’s Design Check!: I drew her keeping in mind that as the main character she needs to be average, but also an exceptionally good girl. Hence her puffy, high-placed twin tails. The design and color of her ribbons took a lot of work, but in the end calmed down to something simple.<br />
** Magical girl outfit: Madoka was drawn to be the very image of a magical girl. I added an almost fairy tale-ish hints, so hopefully female viewers will be charmed by her as well. (Aoki)<br />
** Full of tiny frills, with ribbons arranged at the neck, waist, and on the shoes. It’s perfectly “cute”, and seemingly unsuited for combat, but…<br />
** School uniform: Designed to convey the classy image of a private girls’ school, while not being -too- normal. Its distinguishing point is the small hole at the nape of the neck. (Aoki)<br />
** Of the heroines shown here, Madoka has the most childish body. Her legs are clad in pure, virginal white over-knee socks.<br />
* From the [[Pre-Broadcast November Advertisement|pre-broadcast November promotional video]]:<br />
** "A gentle 2nd year middle school girl who thinks of friends before herself."<br />
** "If anything could be granted with a magic…"<br />
** "What would you do?" <br />
* From the anime:<br />
** Madoka's mother, [[Junko Kaname|Junko]], commented that she has always been a good child and never lies.<br />
** Kyubey, Homura and Mami confirmed that Madoka has great magical potential.<br />
** Madoka is the only one without a transformation sequence as a magical girl within the Anime series.<br />
** Madoka became {{spoiler|the Embodiment of Hope in the finale.}}<br />
* A [[100 Questions|100 Question Survey]] has been published revealing details about Madoka such as her likes, dislikes, hobbies, and physical attributes.<br />
**Birthday: October 3<br />
**Blood Type: A<br />
**Height: Slightly less than 150cm (4'11"). Production Note shows a [[:Media:PN_10.jpg|height revision]] to 152cm (5'0").<br />
**Shoe size: 22 JP (Women's 5.5 US, Children's 4 US, 36 EU, 3 UK)<br />
* According to a [[NewType 2011-07]] interview with [[Gen Urobuchi]], the character Madoka is written based on Yuno from Hidamari Sketch (Aoki Ume's creation).<br />
** "To be honest, Madoka, the protagonist, is a pretty unusual character for my writing style."<br />
** "A foreign character that did not exist inside myself."<br />
** "I wrote the screenplay as if Yunocchi (from Hidamari Sketch) is to be put as the protagonist. I even had the preparation that seiyuu Asumi (Kana)-san would play her (lol)." <br />
** "I imagined all the other characters by starting from “Madoka = Yuno”."<br />
** "And every time I got Yunocchi to cry I got hated by the Hidamari fans more (lol)."<br />
<br />
==Trivia==<br />
* The characters of her last name mean "deer" (鹿) and "eye"(目), respectively.<br />
* Her last name can also be used as a first name.<br />
* Her last name sounds the same as (要), a word which means "keystone" or "hub".<br />
* Her first name is written in hiragana which has no particular meaning. However, when written in kanji, it can mean "round" or "tranquil" (円).<br />
* Madoka owns many stuffed animals in [[Madoka's House#Madoka's Room|her room]].<br />
* Madoka and [[Mami]] are the only Magical Girls known who are never seen having a mark on any of their fingernails. [[Homura]], [[Kyoko]] and [[Sayaka]] all have marks on their left middle fingers, matching the shape of the emblem of their respective Soul Gem.<br />
* Madoka is never seen with her Soul Gem in a ring form.<br />
* Madoka loves cats like Homura.<br />
* Aoi Yuuki (Madoka's VA) really likes [[Kyoko]] and she claimed that Kyoko is her wife. You can hear her confession in the [[:Talk:Drama_CD_2#Info_and_DL|Magical Girls Tea Party]] bonus CD.<br />
** In the commentary for [[Episode 5]] Aoi Yuki declares her love for Kyoko and desires to marry her. Ai Nonaka questions her choice and informs her all she ever does is eat. Aoi Yuki is ok with this and declares she would just adjust.<br />
*** In same comentary Chiwa Saitou sounds annoyed, some suggested perhaps she is jealous. But the question is, jealous of whom?<br />
** Aoi Yuuki [[:file:Going gaga for kyouko.jpg|goes even more gaga]] for Kyoko in the audio commentaries for [[Episode 7]]: "The one I love, it's Kyoko-tan." "Kyoko-tan is the absolute best!" "it's like she isn't trying to be cool, but she's still REALLY cool." <br />
**In the [[Talk:Key_Animation_Note|"C81 Aniplex Madoka Special Talk CD"]], not even two minutes has passed and Aoi Yuki's already fangirling over Kyoko-tan~ <br />
*Aoi Yuuki (Madoka) is trying to form [[:file:Aoi yuuki yuri harem.jpg|her own harem]]<br />
*Urobuchi in his audio commentary on BD/DVD 3 explains that he felt like Aoi Yuki was born for the role of Madoka. What he means is that she doesn't force herself into the role of becoming her character and she leaves the impression of being a natural airhead, but in a good way.<br />
*Madoka's last form is known as [[Blu-Ray_Volume_6_Booklet#Original_Design_Artworks_Six|Ultimate Madoka]]. Prior to this information, fans called her form "MadoKami", Godoka, or Goddess Madoka.<br />
**In one of the original artwork designs, it is noted that Madoka is holding a [[wikipedia:Shinai|shinai sword]] or a bow.<br />
*Madoka is a [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki Grade A Zettai Ryouiki] in her school uniform<br />
*Official information indicates that Madoka was born in October 3, making her a [[wikipedia:Libra_(astrology)|Libra]].<br />
*Wehihihi ♥ "ウェヒヒヒヒ" is an onomatopoeia for Madoka's trademark laughter. You can hear it [http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14436710 here.]<br />
<br />
==Observation==<br />
<br />
===Characterization===<br />
<blockquote>''"Madoka, you have grown to be a good girl. You don't lie and you dont do anything bad. You always try to do what is right. You are a wonderful child."'' - Junko, [[Episode 6]].</blockquote> <br />
<br />
* Madoka is a nice kid, somewhat naive due to being a teenager.<br />
** Friendly and gentle toward Homura, a new transfer student {{spoiler|no matter which timeline}}.<br />
** Wanted to be helpful to other people.<br />
** Admired Mami and was severely affected by her.{{spoiler| death}}<br />
** Constantly worried about Sayaka's safety and willing to face danger for her friend.<br />
*Madoka always tries to call other main characters their first names with postfix (-chan or -san) if possible. It may indicate that she is eager to get close to others. The only exception is Kamijou. Madoka might think it is not a good idea to get too close to him since she believes he could potentially become Sayaka's boyfriend. <br />
**This is confirmed in the PSP, when Madoka finally calls him by his first name, after Sayaka made advances with him in one of the endings.<br />
* A level-headed person, capable of making decisions on her own.<br />
** Didn't believe Homura is "totally evil" as she was told, and tried to understand her better based on what she observed.<br />
** Didn't wish to {{spoiler|revive Mami, who is just a new acquaintance}}, but was ready to sacrifice herself for her best friend [[Sayaka]]. This added to the realistic aspect of Madoka's character.<br />
** Tried to prevent Sayaka and Kyoko's unnecessary fight, and pursued Sayaka to solve conflicts by negotiation instead of violence.<br />
** Looked for advise from her mother without mentioning magic.<br />
** Can answer immediately to [[Kyubey]] that {{spoiler|even if the Incubators have good reason to collect energy, they are still humanity's enemy.}} This is demonstrates her understanding of humanity.<br />
** Kept calm toward Homura's revelation and reminded Sayaka not to stir conflicts between teammates (TL3).<br />
** Acted fast to take out {{spoiler|Mami}} and saved Homura (TL3).<br />
** {{spoiler|Used the last grief seed to save Homura because she wanted the latter to prevent a tragic outcome (TL3).}}<br />
** Thought of a wish that would bring the most benefits to other people based on the info she had.<br />
* The difference between the character of Madoka and the character of Sayaka: While both are good-hearted girls, Madoka never judges based on first impressions, never makes rash assumptions, and has the mentality to deal with truth. <br />
* Madoka's wishes always stemmed from her kindness.<br />
** From what we know until now, she contracted with Kyubey in order to {{spoiler|save a cat whom had just died in front of her (TL1), save Homura from Walpurgisnacht (TL4), and release Magical Girls in the past and future from their cursed fate of becoming witches (Episode 12)}}.<br />
** Asked to accompany Sayaka on her witch hunt just so that if the latter was ever in danger, she could make a wish and rescue Sayaka. She nearly made this wish in [[Episode 8]].<br />
** Madoka's kindness is one of the major reasons why Homura is so drawn to her. From [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD 1 ''"Memories of you"'']], {{spoiler|the reason Madoka became a Magical Girl in the first timeline is to save a cat which had been run over by a car. Madoka also treated Homura very nicely from the beginning, who at that time was being bullied. We also learn that whenever Madoka made a contract and become a Magical Girl, she would act much more confident since it gave her a sense of purpose. Homura's interventions during the course of the anime prevented this change.}}<br />
*According with Urobuchi, he made Junko a [[Blu-Ray_Volume_4_Booklet#Gen_Urobuchi_.28Screenplay_for_All_Episodes.29_.26_Akiyuki_Shinbo_.28Director.29_Conversation_Part_1|strong woman]] so Madoka would want to emulate her strength and courage.<br />
**It is possible that the reason Madoka feels so useless prior to becoming a magical girl, is that she consciously fails to measure to her own mother.<br />
***It is suggested that the reason Madoka is so miserable is that she wishes for power in order to be selfless so that she won't be miserable any more. Kyubey uses this to manipulate Madoka's thinking into making her wish through her guilt. He tries to manipulate Madoka into a belief that she can be free from her misery by making a selfless wish.<br />
***Without the wish and the life experience as a magical girl, Madoka's character never grows and develops into a courageous heroine. However, her life experience as a scared teenage girl, constantly crying and mourning the death of so many, always wanting to do what's right yet feeling powerless, the failure of attempting to save friends and strangers, and the sorrow she feels for the victims of innocent girls {{spoiler|deceived by a calculating cold alien allows Madoka to finally develops the courage to confront her fears to save Homura and the world, instead of succumbing to despair and running away, Madoka finally grows up. The scene with her mother in Episode 11 leaves that impression.}}<br />
*In [[Episode 6]], Junko and Madoka had a conversation on how difficult it is to do the right thing, even when no one is in the wrong (per say). Junko's advice was for Madoka to be on the wrong against her friend to solve the problem, even if it means that her friend would hate her for it. In [[Episode 11]] Junko confronts Madoka to stop her from getting into the danger of the storm, Madoka reminds her mother that she is a good girl and never does anything wrong but she tells her she needs to do this, a throwback to their earlier conversation. Madoka knows that what she is doing will worry her family, but she also knows that she must disobey her mother to save her family and her town. This conversation between Junko and Madoka earns her mother's trust.<br />
* In the [[Drama CD 2|Drama CD ''"Sunny Day Life"'']] Madoka ''used'' to get good grades, but her duties as a magical girl are interfering with her studies.<br />
** For what is worth, Madoka's grades are still better than Sayaka's.<br />
<br />
===Important Plot Points===<br />
* [[Episode 8]]: Kyubey claimed Madoka's power to be godlike, to the point where she could even change the laws of the universe if she wished for it.<br />
* [[Episode 10]]: {{spoiler|In the first timeline, Madoka along with Mami saved Homura from a familiar. She died during the fight with Walpurgis Night. In the second timeline, Madoka turned into a witch for the first time, revealing to Homura the link between Magical Girls and Witches. In a later timeline, Madoka killed Mami in order to save Homura, as Mami lost control of herself and had just killed Kyoko. This is also the timeline in which Madoka asked Homura to go back in time to prevent her from becoming a Magical Girl.}} Madoka's power increased exponentially {{spoiler|after every timeline. The first time showed she was an ordinary magical girl. In later timeline she had enough power to defeat Walpurgis in one shot, was capable of destroying the entire planet within 10 days in her witch form, and satisfied all Kyubey's energy quotas of the Earth.}} <br />
* [[Episode 11]]: {{spoiler|Homura's time repeats had linked multiple parallel universes together with Madoka's fate as their center. With every reset, Homura would force yet another parallel universe to be centered around Madoka. The accumulated karma is the reason why Madoka's potential power is so great.}} Hearing the revelations from Kyubey regarding the history of Magical Girls, Madoka was deeply hurt and thus wanted to save these girls from despair.<br />
* [[Episode 12]]: Madoka {{spoiler|wished to erase all witches in every dimension, in every timeline, with her own hands. This created a paradox because Madoka would eventually erase her own witch self, while she must continue to exist and destroy other witches. This paradox resulted in Madoka escaping the bounds of reality and ascending to godhood. Since Madoka never existed as a human in this new reality, she is no longer remembered by anyone, except for Homura. It has been suggested that Sayaka also remembers her in the new timeline as well, as Sayaka confesses to her in Episode 12 that she has caused her best friend a lot of trouble; this could be interpreted as Sayaka having learnt of her unfortunate fate of turning into a witch in the other timelines, an outcome which clearly inflicted a great deal of emotional hurt on Madoka. }}<br />
<br />
==Speculation==<br />
* Some fans speculate that Madoka presumably made a wish for a large cake in one of the timelines, under the influence of Mami.<br />
** However, this is highly debatable. {{spoiler|Her original wish to save Amy would still apply if her circumstances to the event remains the same.}}<br />
* Theoretically there is also the danger that, should Madoka become extremely powerful and turn into a witch, her power may be enough to destroy not only Earth, but the entire universe.<br />
** INCREDIBLY unlikely. Kyubey's species is (if they can be trusted) trying to save the universe in the first place, not trying to destroy it. They wouldn't create something they can't take down.<br />
*** Then again, Kyubey remarked in the fourth timeline that he didn't know Madoka would turn out to be so powerful. While in this timeline he probably knows (and definitely doesn't care) that the witch form of Madoka could destroy the Earth, he may not know the full extent of her power.<br />
*** Madoka's wish includes a hidden if-then clause {{spoiler|to prevent her from ever becoming a witch}}. Because her wish is to {{spoiler|erase all witches before they're born with her own hands, she has the power to erase her own witch from existence}}. Which is what we see happen.<br />
* It is speculated that any wish Madoka ever made would be twisted because of the nature of the wish, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey suspects that as long as the motives are selfish, the wish will always be twisted because the wishers' desire would always fail to meet their expectation.<br />
** It is speculated that Madoka realized that as long as her thinking was selfish or incorrect, then her wish would also be twisted. It is suspect that Madoka contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in [[Episode 11]], without being caught into the snare of the wish's trap. {{spoiler|It is suspected that Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence.}}<br />
*** A Philosophical analysis tries to determine Madoka's motive, [[Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive|Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive]]<br />
*An argument can be said that Madoka has two ways to develop her courage. One is through Kyubey by magic (which is the easiest path); the other way is more difficult and hurtful, the painful life experience and lessons she receives through friends, family members, and from strangers. But the most influential character in Madoka's life would be her mother, her source of wisdom, courage, and strength.<br />
** The [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD "Memories of you"]], states that Madoka used to have low self-esteem and doubts about herself until she became a magical girl.<br />
* It is suspected that the series is attempting to show the journey of a little girl growing up from a simple life that is then thrown into the realm of magic. From her innocent eyes she perceives the magical world to be good, fantastic, and pleasing. But once Madoka experiences the dark nature of the magic world, she attempts to escape from the dark world of magic and at the same time evade the cynical world of reality. During her scene with her mother, Madoka attempts to move from the hopeless world of reality into the realm of adulthood. However, because Madoka still retains her hopes and dreams some would suggest that Madoka, rather than being regressed into a childish person, is growing into a hopeful adult that dreams for a better future.<br />
** This is considered incorrect. In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption—this is one of the most important metaphors in the anime (If we were never corrupted, we would never be "mature", our true images, when not corrupted, are images of naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion). When one becomes an adult, most likely she becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that she cannot resonate with other people and the power of the light side (hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity" - "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart - the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep within her.<br />
* I concur. In the anime, Kyubey refers to the magical girls as "puella" (in the title, which should suggest even greater significance). Puella, as he phrased it, referred to an immature girl. He also mentioned that these girls "grow up" into witches, implying that with maturity comes darkness and pain. The "adulthood" that is referenced in this series refers mostly to the dark side of humanity. <br />
** During the old world, "maturity" is essentially the corruption of a girl's adolescence. Kyubey's process is an attempt to uncover the darkness and selfish nature of the girls by amplifying it during the developing period into a witch. Is not an issue of purity as much as an issue of naivete and inexperience innocence; Kyubey corrupts these girls because they haven't been exposed or experienced the gritty reality of the world. Their lives as magical girls shatter their ideal views of a mahou shoujo, in the case of Kyoko as an example. Even Madoka became a Witch, perhaps as a statement of the flawed nature of humanity. But there was also a message of hope, Ultimate Madoka, a version of hope and sacrifice that defeated her Superwitch counterpart. This new entity born of the same metamorphosis process overcame the corrupting process of the system and developed into a much more mature Madoka. The reason for this new change is because Madoka made her wish that reflected her part as a sensible young adult, with the guidance of self reflection and wise counsel from others. The previous Madoka versions failed because they didn't reach their natural maturity when they made their wishes; they made their wishes with the mental view of an innocent child who didnt fully mature or understood the world. This new Madoka carries with her the hopes of magical girls, not just her own. However, as a responsible adult she must fade from the world and help many girls by taking their impurities with her. Madoka knows that she cannot abandon them, no matter how much she would miss her family and friends. This new Madoka has inhered a new sense of maturity and adult responsibility. The process of maturing into a better person requires Madoka to inherit the traits that comes with adulthood. It doesnt mean that Madoka becomes a better adult automatically nor a corrupt adult either. It just means that Madoka cannot grow into maturity without taking the elements of adulthood with her. In the series, adulthood can much as mean corruption as well as a new sense of guardianship. In this new sense, maturity and adulthood are not exclusive. One can become an adult without maturing (a witch), but one cannot mature without becoming an adult. One great example of Madoka's maturity is respecting the magical girls' wishes and dreams by not undoing their wishes or undoing their deaths. Another example is Madoka's acceptance of the need of a system to repair the damage done to the universe. Madoka's system is not perfect but she attempts to adjust it to make it more fair. Rather than radically alter the world to an "ideal version" (or paradise, as [[Kriemhild Gretchen]] tried), Madoka accepts the world as it is and tries to work within it. Madoka is in the process of growing into a fine woman, just like her mother Junko.<br />
*** Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the magical girls in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purest souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but of all people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts are blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the magical girls in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption(absorbing the greatest darkness) from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels; in the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults (people whose true heart are blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, as stated, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonates with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart (subconsciousness) is like (the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings alone are all that I live for, what will create my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
**** I would like to point out that there is a contradiction. If only the purity of Madoka's soul can save the girls. Then what does one make of the other girls? If Madoka is so pure and the reason she became a Witch was because of the corruption tainting her heart, then what changed in the end? If magical girls are not selfish, does that make them selfless? If so, then why couldn't they overcome their own corruption? One cannot be selfless and selfish at the same time, this in essence is a contradiction. To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective. Mami wanted to live but she regretted her choice because she didn't think of saving her family at the time. Sayaka wanted to heal Kyosuke because she felt sorry for him, but she also admits too late that she also wanted his love. This is why Kyubey knows that any wish will be corrupted, because it gets twisted by its own logic.<br />
***** The taint made them selfish, this means the taint blinds them from seeing hope, and thus they're only controlled by their grief and despair. Madoka has selfish desires, but they vanished so quickly inside Madoka's heart because they're powerless, until Madoka is tainted by the darkness of the witch she had defeated(corruption thus pass from one to the other, and it is non-decreasing, like entropy). It is not the girls are not selfish at all, it is that though they're basically selfless, and they're much more selfless than most people, they have a desire to protect their own hearts. When darkness blinds them, their dark side is magnified while their good side being blinded, thus they become witches(notice that this is not a necessary cause of a magical girl being turned into a witch). One can be selfless and selfish at the same time, we have both the nature of selflessness and selfishness(desire to protect oneself), and when darkness blinds one, the two parts of us would be conflicting, and darkness may(or may not) win at the end. However, I do agree with this "To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective.". <br />
*****Unlike Sayaka, Madoka probably gets corrupted not because her wish gets twisted. It is possible her wish only got twisted after she became a witch, not before it, so perhaps it is not causing her transformation into a witch. As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected.<br />
******This is contradictory, all wishes get twisted according to Kyubey, because it never achieves the results one ever wants or expects. This is part of why girls gent transformed into Witches, it is part of the metamorphosis. This is already stated in [[Episode 11]]. Unless a counter-proof is provided, this is highly unlikely. In the case of Kyoko, while her wish was her innocent attempt to help her father, she failed to realized that she did not ask for her father's consent or opinion. Instead he felt he was used without his consent and that the magic spell was forced upon him.<br />
***This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor. This is, as it has been said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
****An argument can be said that its message is also about the hope of humanity, that even beyond the shadow of corruption there is a veil of hope for those who strife for it. Madoka, instead of turning her back to a corrupt world, decided she wanted to save it. If the world is corrupt, then it is assumed that is beyond saving. Instead, Madoka sacrificed herself to change the world into a better place. The new world is not perfect, it is still plagued with flaws and corruption, but it is also a little bit fair and merciful. <br />
***** When it is said that the world is hurrying to its ruin, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, it simply means that without people's resonance with hope, without any change, the world will surely destroy itself. But there is always hope, as what Madoka has shown to viewers, the power of hope can shatter all the darkness, and change the rule of universe, which is what will save humanity.<br />
***Madoka's maturity, as it has been stated, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. The words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".<br />
****This observation is essential to understanding the anime, it underlines that the story is of "coming of age" in an imperfect world. However, the series is not an attempt to attack adulthood, but illuminate the flaws of a cruel world that children are forced to grow into. The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers.<br />
*****It is suggested that the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood".<br />
<br />
==Magazine Article==<br />
*[[NewType_2011-07#Madoka_Character_Description|July's NewType article]]<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Kazumi Magica==<br />
[[File:Kazumi madoka.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
* Madoka's silhouette appeared once during Juubey's explanation about Magical Girl system. She also makes a single-panel cameo in the extra pages in the first volume of the collected edition.<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Oriko Magica==<br />
<blockquote>''"How can you be so calm, Homura-chan? Why? Why are you only saving me? You have such an incredible power, Homura-chan!!" <br \ > "If you're going to abandon everyone and run away, then you shouldn't save me...!"'' - Madoka, [[Oriko_Magica#Chapter_5:_That.27s_what_I.27m_here_for|Puella Magi Oriko Magica, Chapter 5]].</blockquote><br />
* Madoka appears in Chapter 3, asking [[Homura]] to go home with her, along with [[Sayaka]] and [[Hitomi]]. She is well protected by Homura and isn't aware of Magical Girl system.<br />
* She appears in Chapter 4 for one page. She is shown with her friends Homura, Sayaka and Hitomi going out for snacks after school.<br />
* In chapters 5 through 7, Mitakihara Junior High was attacked by [[Oriko]] and [[Kirika]]. Oriko spoke to the school through the school's broadcast system, and seemed to give a threatening look to Madoka as she claimed she defeat a creature of ultimate despair that will descend upon them. As a witch's barrier forms over the school, Madoka is separated from her friends attacked by familiars. Homura saves her in time, but Madoka demands to know why she does not help the other students. Homura knows she cannot save everyone, and wanted to try to save Madoka anyway. Madoka apologized as Homura puts her in a protective barrier so familiars cannot attack her and left to defeat the perpetrators. Madoka escaped from the protective barrier created by Homura, and tried to help Homura with Sayaka and Hitomi. {{spoiler|Madoka was Oriko's real target. The white magical girl wanted to kill her before she could contract and become a magical girl herself, and then the most powerful witch ever. She was killed by Oriko at the very end, when they were dying Oriko used a shard of Kirika's witch body to impale Madoka through the torso. Once Oriko died and the witch barrier was lifted, Hitomi and Sayaka mourning for the dead Madoka became visible.}}<br />
<br />
==Madoka in Madoka Magica Portable==<br />
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|-<br />
!style="text-align:left; padding:10px;"|Warning, this section contains spoilers on game endings.<br />
|-<br />
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<br />
==Gallery==<br />
<br />
=== Official art ===<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Kaname Anime Design.jpg|Initial design<br />
File:Madoka Kaname Original Design.jpg|Original character design by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Madoka morning pajama.png|<br />
File:Sleepover.jpg|Madoka having a sleepover with friends<br />
File:Madoka bd1 4koma.jpg|Translated [[Ume Aoki|Ume]] 4koma from Madoka BD volume 1<br />
File:BD 4 Ume 4koma TL.jpg|Translated Ume 4koma from Madoka BD volume 4<br />
File:Autographed illustration umeaoki.JPG|Autographed illustration by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Ume madoka kyubey.jpg<br />
File:Ume aoki dojinshi madoka.jpg|[[Ume Aoki]]'s Dojinshi "RKGKMDK"<br />
File:Apricot +6.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup 2.jpg<br />
File:Madoka designs 1.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 2.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 3.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 4.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 5.jpg<br />
File:408.5.jpg|Animedia 2011-06<br />
File:Megami 04.2011 Madoka Pin-up.jpg|Megami magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:Nyantype 04.2011 Madoka Illustration.jpg|Nyantype magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:BD 1 Scan 8.jpg|from the Blu-Ray Volume 1 Booklet.<br />
File:MadokainKazumi.png|Madoka as drawn by Takashi Tensugi, the artist for [[Kazumi Magica]].<br />
File:MadokainOriko.png|Madoka as she appears in [[Oriko Magica]].<br />
File:Newtype 07 2011 p18 p19.jpg<br />
File:Madohomu prodsketch.jpg|Early production sketch of Madoka with Homura.<br />
File:PN 83.jpg<br />
File:Kisseymadokasketch.jpg|Goddess Madoka from the [[Puella Magi Production Notes|production notes]].<br />
File:Madoka magica anthology 1.jpg|Madoka Magica Anthology 1<br />
File:Ultimate Madoka settei information 6 official art BD 6.jpg|Ultimate Madoka by Ume Aoki.<br />
File:PN 09.jpg<br />
File:PN 56.jpg<br />
File:PN 57.jpg<br />
File:PN 58.jpg<br />
File:PN 59.jpg<br />
File:Animedia_2012-02_03.jpg|Animedia magazine, February 2012. Madoka's ring and fingernail mark as a magical girl are visible.<br />
File:618624.jpg<br />
File:20111112_3d97ad-2.jpg<br />
File:574169-1.jpg|Notice how Madoka's Soul Gem ring and fingernail marking are visible.<br />
File:Chibi_Madoka.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Screenshots ===<br />
==== Madoka as a regular girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Op_ep6_vs_ep5.jpg|Madoka x Madoka in the opening animation<br />
File:Madoka night clothes.jpg|Closeup of sleepy-eyed Madoka in the OP<br />
File:Madoka sleep on QB.gif|Sleepy Madoka<br />
File:Madoka is shy.gif|Madoka is shy<br />
File:Madoka family.gif|Madoka's family<br />
File:Madoka everyday life.gif|Madoka everyday life<br />
File:Madoka_ Sayaka_Hitomi.gif|Madoka & friends<br />
File:Madoka wakes up.gif|Madoka wakes up<br />
File:Madoka_Sayaka_Hitomi_playing.gif|Madoka Sayaka Hitomi playing<br />
File:Kaname-madoka.jpg|Madoka Kaname<br />
File:Screenshot madoka fascinating.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-loveletter.PNG|Madoka daydreaming about getting a love letter.<br />
File:Madoka-ponytail.jpg|Madoka with a ponytail<br />
File:Madoka crying.gif|Madoka crying<br />
File:Madoka received a gift.gif|Madoka received a gift <br />
File:Madoka is upset.gif|Madoka is upset<br />
File:Madoka_Sketch.jpg|A self-portrait. Drawing is one of Madoka's hobbies.<br />
File:Madoka hands.jpg|Closeup of Madoka's hands in [[Episode 10]] (TBS version), Timeline 1, when she is walking [[Homura]] to the nurse's office. She is known to be contracted by then. Note no Soul Gem ring or fingernail mark.<br />
File:Madoka tied up on the wheel of time.gif|Madoka tied up on the wheel of time<br />
File:Kaname_Madoka.png<br />
File:340798-madoka.jpg<br />
File:Ep6_madoka_long_hair.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000108.jpg<br />
File:464082.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000272-1.jpg<br />
File:Puella110_000043.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000292.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a Magical Girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-dodging.jpg|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka-dodging.gif|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka hug Homura.gif|Madoka hug Homura<br />
File:Madoka-mahou-shoujo.jpg|Madoka Kaname, Total Badass.<br />
File:Madoka hands 2.jpg|Madoka is purifying [[Homura]]'s Soul Gem in [[Episode 10]]'s Timeline 3. Again, note no fingernail mark.<br>[[:File:Madoka is purifying Homuras Soul Gem.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokamercy.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-soul-gem.jpg|Madoka's soul gem<br />
File:Madoka.png<br />
File:Tumblr_lk2ccuqv5G1qb7j0bo1_1280.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000091.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h50m38s0.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m14s99.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m45s157.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m48s189.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m54s246.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m59s46.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magika-10-mbs-x264-1920x1080-mp4-00001.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-10-large-06.jpg<br />
File:Madoka transformation_PSP.gif|Madoka's transformation in PSP GAME<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a witch ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-grief-seed.png|Madoka/Kriemhild's grief seed.<br />
File:Madoka-witch-first.jpg|Madoka's witch transformation in the second timeline.<br />
File:Kaname witch form power.jpg|Madoka's witch form.<br />
File:Madoka the Ultimate Witch.jpg|A closeup of the face of the ultimate witch form of Madoka born as a result of her wish in the story timeline.<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Fanart ===<br />
{{fanart}}<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Superfriends.png|Many experts believe something sort of like this happened after the final episode of Madoka Magica ended<br />
File:Madoka fuels the Universe.png|<br />
File:Aoki_ume_madoka_doujin_art_highrez.png|Fan coloring of Ume's work<br />
File:Madokami art front back.jpg|Madoka as the Goddess/concept of Hope<br />
File:Fan creation Madoka Soul Gem.jpg|Fan jewelry creation of Madoka's Soul Gem with a pink nebula inside (?) or a pink rose bud (?)<br />
File:MadoKami gundam.jpg|<br />
File:Scary madokami.jpg|You shall have no other gods before Me. That includes that wannabe Haruhi.<br />
File:MadoKami and Charlotte.jpg|Madoka rescues Charlotte.<br />
File:Madoka evolution magical girl.jpg|Madoka has evolved into MadoKami! <br />
File:It's tough to be a goddess.gif|No Mahou Shoujo Predator? But they are practically born into the hunting tradition!<br />
File:Madoka learning how to befriend.png|Madoka learning from the master.<br />
File:Meet the time traveler.jpg|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=36lSzUMBJnc Meet the Goddess]<br />
File:Namacha I Won't Allow That.png|MadoKami already abusing her Goddess powers, and we are fine with this.<br />
File:Madoprince homuprincess.jpg<br />
File:Chibimadokami.jpg|MadoKami died for our HHHNNNNNGGGGG~!<br />
File:Madoka pixel mugen.gif<br />
File:MadoKami all powerful fanart.jpg|''Thou Shall Have no Other Anime gods Before Me.''<br />
File:Madoka ;p fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka afro op fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka Ben-to.jpg|"And thus begins the "that character sounds like Madoka, imagine if she was the one to say that" adventures with Aoi Yuuki's characters.<br />
File:Madokami bow arrow aiming posture fanart.jpg<br />
File:AeFLl-1.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Miscellaneous ===<br />
<br />
==== Madoka's bow ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Bow.jpg|Rendition of Madoka's bow; it looks like a branch with a rose on its end<br />
File:Madoka-bow-firing.PNG|Madoka's bow in action<br />
File:Madoka-firing.jpg|You're gonna get befriended!<br>[[:File:Madoka shooting one arrow.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokas-arrow.jpg|A close-up of Madoka's arrow<br />
File:Madoka-multishot.jpg|Madoka using Multi-Shot<br>[[:File:Madoka multi shots.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:PN 13.jpg|Sketches from production notes.<br />
File:PN 14.jpg<br />
File:PN 22.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Aoi Yuki ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:BLT Aoi Yuki.jpg|Aoi Yuki. BLT magazine, 2011-6.<br />
File:Animedia 05.2011 Aoi Yuki DATA FILE.png|Aoi Yuki [[Animedia_2011-05|Data file]].<br />
File:Aoi yuki madoka.jpg<br />
File:Seiyuu aoi yuuki 2008 article picture.jpg<br />
File:Magical Girl Otona Anime 08.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Kriemhild Gretchen]], Madoka's witch form.<br />
* [[GetNavi 2011-12|GetNavi 2011-12]]<br />
* [[Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)|Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)]]<br />
* [[Animedia_2011-05#Aoi_Yuki_.28Madoka.29_Data_File|Aoi Yuki's Data file]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*{{pixiv_tag|鹿目まどか}}<br />
*{{booru_tag|danbooru|kaname_madoka}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Characters]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Madoka_Kaname&diff=45135Madoka Kaname2012-08-19T07:25:44Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div><blockquote>''"If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time."'' - Madoka Kaname, [[Episode 12]].</blockquote><br />
<br />
{{Infobox_character<br />
|name=Madoka Kaname<br />
|image=[[File:Madoka Chara Sheet.jpg|300px]]<br />
|jname=鹿目 まどか (Kaname Madoka) <br />
|voices=<br />
Japanese: [http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=creator&creatorid=1625 Aoi Yuuki]<br />English: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=95337 Christine Marie Cabanos]<br />Italian: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=70851 Joy Saltarelli]<br />
|age=14 <!-- via CM --><br />
|weapon=Bow<br />
}}<br />
'''Madoka Kaname''', the protagonist and title character, is a gentle and friendly 14 year old girl. Living an ordinary life, Madoka has a loving family and is surrounded by good friends. One day she had a dream of a mysterious girl who was fighting an ominous creature. The next day, [[Homura Akemi|Akemi Homura]], the girl from her dream, came to her class as a transfer student.<br />
<br />
==Official Info==<br />
* Character profile:<br />
** A good-natured and ordinary eighth-grader. She is the health coordinator in her class.<br />
** Even her bow-wielding magical girl form projects an air of kind friendliness. Her choker bears a pink gem.<br />
**[[Ume Aoki|Ms. Aoki]]’s Design Check!: I drew her keeping in mind that as the main character she needs to be average, but also an exceptionally good girl. Hence her puffy, high-placed twin tails. The design and color of her ribbons took a lot of work, but in the end calmed down to something simple.<br />
** Magical girl outfit: Madoka was drawn to be the very image of a magical girl. I added an almost fairy tale-ish hints, so hopefully female viewers will be charmed by her as well. (Aoki)<br />
** Full of tiny frills, with ribbons arranged at the neck, waist, and on the shoes. It’s perfectly “cute”, and seemingly unsuited for combat, but…<br />
** School uniform: Designed to convey the classy image of a private girls’ school, while not being -too- normal. Its distinguishing point is the small hole at the nape of the neck. (Aoki)<br />
** Of the heroines shown here, Madoka has the most childish body. Her legs are clad in pure, virginal white over-knee socks.<br />
* From the [[Pre-Broadcast November Advertisement|pre-broadcast November promotional video]]:<br />
** "A gentle 2nd year middle school girl who thinks of friends before herself."<br />
** "If anything could be granted with a magic…"<br />
** "What would you do?" <br />
* From the anime:<br />
** Madoka's mother, [[Junko Kaname|Junko]], commented that she has always been a good child and never lies.<br />
** Kyubey, Homura and Mami confirmed that Madoka has great magical potential.<br />
** Madoka is the only one without a transformation sequence as a magical girl within the Anime series.<br />
** Madoka became {{spoiler|the Embodiment of Hope in the finale.}}<br />
* A [[100 Questions|100 Question Survey]] has been published revealing details about Madoka such as her likes, dislikes, hobbies, and physical attributes.<br />
**Birthday: October 3<br />
**Blood Type: A<br />
**Height: Slightly less than 150cm (4'11"). Production Note shows a [[:Media:PN_10.jpg|height revision]] to 152cm (5'0").<br />
**Shoe size: 22 JP (Women's 5.5 US, Children's 4 US, 36 EU, 3 UK)<br />
* According to a [[NewType 2011-07]] interview with [[Gen Urobuchi]], the character Madoka is written based on Yuno from Hidamari Sketch (Aoki Ume's creation).<br />
** "To be honest, Madoka, the protagonist, is a pretty unusual character for my writing style."<br />
** "A foreign character that did not exist inside myself."<br />
** "I wrote the screenplay as if Yunocchi (from Hidamari Sketch) is to be put as the protagonist. I even had the preparation that seiyuu Asumi (Kana)-san would play her (lol)." <br />
** "I imagined all the other characters by starting from “Madoka = Yuno”."<br />
** "And every time I got Yunocchi to cry I got hated by the Hidamari fans more (lol)."<br />
<br />
==Trivia==<br />
* The characters of her last name mean "deer" (鹿) and "eye"(目), respectively.<br />
* Her last name can also be used as a first name.<br />
* Her last name sounds the same as (要), a word which means "keystone" or "hub".<br />
* Her first name is written in hiragana which has no particular meaning. However, when written in kanji, it can mean "round" or "tranquil" (円).<br />
* Madoka owns many stuffed animals in [[Madoka's House#Madoka's Room|her room]].<br />
* Madoka and [[Mami]] are the only Magical Girls known who are never seen having a mark on any of their fingernails. [[Homura]], [[Kyoko]] and [[Sayaka]] all have marks on their left middle fingers, matching the shape of the emblem of their respective Soul Gem.<br />
* Madoka is never seen with her Soul Gem in a ring form.<br />
* Madoka loves cats like Homura.<br />
* Aoi Yuuki (Madoka's VA) really likes [[Kyoko]] and she claimed that Kyoko is her wife. You can hear her confession in the [[:Talk:Drama_CD_2#Info_and_DL|Magical Girls Tea Party]] bonus CD.<br />
** In the commentary for [[Episode 5]] Aoi Yuki declares her love for Kyoko and desires to marry her. Ai Nonaka questions her choice and informs her all she ever does is eat. Aoi Yuki is ok with this and declares she would just adjust.<br />
*** In same comentary Chiwa Saitou sounds annoyed, some suggested perhaps she is jealous. But the question is, jealous of whom?<br />
** Aoi Yuuki [[:file:Going gaga for kyouko.jpg|goes even more gaga]] for Kyoko in the audio commentaries for [[Episode 7]]: "The one I love, it's Kyoko-tan." "Kyoko-tan is the absolute best!" "it's like she isn't trying to be cool, but she's still REALLY cool." <br />
**In the [[Talk:Key_Animation_Note|"C81 Aniplex Madoka Special Talk CD"]], not even two minutes has passed and Aoi Yuki's already fangirling over Kyoko-tan~ <br />
*Aoi Yuuki (Madoka) is trying to form [[:file:Aoi yuuki yuri harem.jpg|her own harem]]<br />
*Urobuchi in his audio commentary on BD/DVD 3 explains that he felt like Aoi Yuki was born for the role of Madoka. What he means is that she doesn't force herself into the role of becoming her character and she leaves the impression of being a natural airhead, but in a good way.<br />
*Madoka's last form is known as [[Blu-Ray_Volume_6_Booklet#Original_Design_Artworks_Six|Ultimate Madoka]]. Prior to this information, fans called her form "MadoKami", Godoka, or Goddess Madoka.<br />
**In one of the original artwork designs, it is noted that Madoka is holding a [[wikipedia:Shinai|shinai sword]] or a bow.<br />
*Madoka is a [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki Grade A Zettai Ryouiki] in her school uniform<br />
*Official information indicates that Madoka was born in October 3, making her a [[wikipedia:Libra_(astrology)|Libra]].<br />
*Wehihihi ♥ "ウェヒヒヒヒ" is an onomatopoeia for Madoka's trademark laughter. You can hear it [http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14436710 here.]<br />
<br />
==Observation==<br />
<br />
===Characterization===<br />
<blockquote>''"Madoka, you have grown to be a good girl. You don't lie and you dont do anything bad. You always try to do what is right. You are a wonderful child."'' - Junko, [[Episode 6]].</blockquote> <br />
<br />
* Madoka is a nice kid, somewhat naive due to being a teenager.<br />
** Friendly and gentle toward Homura, a new transfer student {{spoiler|no matter which timeline}}.<br />
** Wanted to be helpful to other people.<br />
** Admired Mami and was severely affected by her.{{spoiler| death}}<br />
** Constantly worried about Sayaka's safety and willing to face danger for her friend.<br />
*Madoka always tries to call other main characters their first names with postfix (-chan or -san) if possible. It may indicate that she is eager to get close to others. The only exception is Kamijou. Madoka might think it is not a good idea to get too close to him since she believes he could potentially become Sayaka's boyfriend. <br />
**This is confirmed in the PSP, when Madoka finally calls him by his first name, after Sayaka made advances with him in one of the endings.<br />
* A level-headed person, capable of making decisions on her own.<br />
** Didn't believe Homura is "totally evil" as she was told, and tried to understand her better based on what she observed.<br />
** Didn't wish to {{spoiler|revive Mami, who is just a new acquaintance}}, but was ready to sacrifice herself for her best friend [[Sayaka]]. This added to the realistic aspect of Madoka's character.<br />
** Tried to prevent Sayaka and Kyoko's unnecessary fight, and pursued Sayaka to solve conflicts by negotiation instead of violence.<br />
** Looked for advise from her mother without mentioning magic.<br />
** Can answer immediately to [[Kyubey]] that {{spoiler|even if the Incubators have good reason to collect energy, they are still humanity's enemy.}} This is demonstrates her understanding of humanity.<br />
** Kept calm toward Homura's revelation and reminded Sayaka not to stir conflicts between teammates (TL3).<br />
** Acted fast to take out {{spoiler|Mami}} and saved Homura (TL3).<br />
** {{spoiler|Used the last grief seed to save Homura because she wanted the latter to prevent a tragic outcome (TL3).}}<br />
** Thought of a wish that would bring the most benefits to other people based on the info she had.<br />
* The difference between the character of Madoka and the character of Sayaka: While both are good-hearted girls, Madoka never judges based on first impressions, never makes rash assumptions, and has the mentality to deal with truth. <br />
* Madoka's wishes always stemmed from her kindness.<br />
** From what we know until now, she contracted with Kyubey in order to {{spoiler|save a cat whom had just died in front of her (TL1), save Homura from Walpurgisnacht (TL4), and release Magical Girls in the past and future from their cursed fate of becoming witches (Episode 12)}}.<br />
** Asked to accompany Sayaka on her witch hunt just so that if the latter was ever in danger, she could make a wish and rescue Sayaka. She nearly made this wish in [[Episode 8]].<br />
** Madoka's kindness is one of the major reasons why Homura is so drawn to her. From [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD 1 ''"Memories of you"'']], {{spoiler|the reason Madoka became a Magical Girl in the first timeline is to save a cat which had been run over by a car. Madoka also treated Homura very nicely from the beginning, who at that time was being bullied. We also learn that whenever Madoka made a contract and become a Magical Girl, she would act much more confident since it gave her a sense of purpose. Homura's interventions during the course of the anime prevented this change.}}<br />
*According with Urobuchi, he made Junko a [[Blu-Ray_Volume_4_Booklet#Gen_Urobuchi_.28Screenplay_for_All_Episodes.29_.26_Akiyuki_Shinbo_.28Director.29_Conversation_Part_1|strong woman]] so Madoka would want to emulate her strength and courage.<br />
**It is possible that the reason Madoka feels so useless prior to becoming a magical girl, is that she consciously fails to measure to her own mother.<br />
***It is suggested that the reason Madoka is so miserable is that she wishes for power in order to be selfless so that she won't be miserable any more. Kyubey uses this to manipulate Madoka's thinking into making her wish through her guilt. He tries to manipulate Madoka into a belief that she can be free from her misery by making a selfless wish.<br />
***Without the wish and the life experience as a magical girl, Madoka's character never grows and develops into a courageous heroine. However, her life experience as a scared teenage girl, constantly crying and mourning the death of so many, always wanting to do what's right yet feeling powerless, the failure of attempting to save friends and strangers, and the sorrow she feels for the victims of innocent girls {{spoiler|deceived by a calculating cold alien allows Madoka to finally develops the courage to confront her fears to save Homura and the world, instead of succumbing to despair and running away, Madoka finally grows up. The scene with her mother in Episode 11 leaves that impression.}}<br />
*In [[Episode 6]], Junko and Madoka had a conversation on how difficult it is to do the right thing, even when no one is in the wrong (per say). Junko's advice was for Madoka to be on the wrong against her friend to solve the problem, even if it means that her friend would hate her for it. In [[Episode 11]] Junko confronts Madoka to stop her from getting into the danger of the storm, Madoka reminds her mother that she is a good girl and never does anything wrong but she tells her she needs to do this, a throwback to their earlier conversation. Madoka knows that what she is doing will worry her family, but she also knows that she must disobey her mother to save her family and her town. This conversation between Junko and Madoka earns her mother's trust.<br />
* In the [[Drama CD 2|Drama CD ''"Sunny Day Life"'']] Madoka ''used'' to get good grades, but her duties as a magical girl are interfering with her studies.<br />
** For what is worth, Madoka's grades are still better than Sayaka's.<br />
<br />
===Important Plot Points===<br />
* [[Episode 8]]: Kyubey claimed Madoka's power to be godlike, to the point where she could even change the laws of the universe if she wished for it.<br />
* [[Episode 10]]: {{spoiler|In the first timeline, Madoka along with Mami saved Homura from a familiar. She died during the fight with Walpurgis Night. In the second timeline, Madoka turned into a witch for the first time, revealing to Homura the link between Magical Girls and Witches. In a later timeline, Madoka killed Mami in order to save Homura, as Mami lost control of herself and had just killed Kyoko. This is also the timeline in which Madoka asked Homura to go back in time to prevent her from becoming a Magical Girl.}} Madoka's power increased exponentially {{spoiler|after every timeline. The first time showed she was an ordinary magical girl. In later timeline she had enough power to defeat Walpurgis in one shot, was capable of destroying the entire planet within 10 days in her witch form, and satisfied all Kyubey's energy quotas of the Earth.}} <br />
* [[Episode 11]]: {{spoiler|Homura's time repeats had linked multiple parallel universes together with Madoka's fate as their center. With every reset, Homura would force yet another parallel universe to be centered around Madoka. The accumulated karma is the reason why Madoka's potential power is so great.}} Hearing the revelations from Kyubey regarding the history of Magical Girls, Madoka was deeply hurt and thus wanted to save these girls from despair.<br />
* [[Episode 12]]: Madoka {{spoiler|wished to erase all witches in every dimension, in every timeline, with her own hands. This created a paradox because Madoka would eventually erase her own witch self, while she must continue to exist and destroy other witches. This paradox resulted in Madoka escaping the bounds of reality and ascending to godhood. Since Madoka never existed as a human in this new reality, she is no longer remembered by anyone, except for Homura. It has been suggested that Sayaka also remembers her in the new timeline as well, as Sayaka confesses to her in Episode 12 that she has caused her best friend a lot of trouble; this could be interpreted as Sayaka having learnt of her unfortunate fate of turning into a witch in the other timelines, an outcome which clearly inflicted a great deal of emotional hurt on Madoka. }}<br />
<br />
==Speculation==<br />
* Some fans speculate that Madoka presumably made a wish for a large cake in one of the timelines, under the influence of Mami.<br />
** However, this is highly debatable. {{spoiler|Her original wish to save Amy would still apply if her circumstances to the event remains the same.}}<br />
* Theoretically there is also the danger that, should Madoka become extremely powerful and turn into a witch, her power may be enough to destroy not only Earth, but the entire universe.<br />
** INCREDIBLY unlikely. Kyubey's species is (if they can be trusted) trying to save the universe in the first place, not trying to destroy it. They wouldn't create something they can't take down.<br />
*** Then again, Kyubey remarked in the fourth timeline that he didn't know Madoka would turn out to be so powerful. While in this timeline he probably knows (and definitely doesn't care) that the witch form of Madoka could destroy the Earth, he may not know the full extent of her power.<br />
*** Madoka's wish includes a hidden if-then clause {{spoiler|to prevent her from ever becoming a witch}}. Because her wish is to {{spoiler|erase all witches before they're born with her own hands, she has the power to erase her own witch from existence}}. Which is what we see happen.<br />
* It is speculated that any wish Madoka ever made would be twisted because of the nature of the wish, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey suspects that as long as the motives are selfish, the wish will always be twisted because the wishers' desire would always fail to meet their expectation.<br />
** It is speculated that Madoka realized that as long as her thinking was selfish or incorrect, then her wish would also be twisted. It is suspect that Madoka contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in [[Episode 11]], without being caught into the snare of the wish's trap. {{spoiler|It is suspected that Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence.}}<br />
*** A Philosophical analysis tries to determine Madoka's motive, [[Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive|Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive]]<br />
*An argument can be said that Madoka has two ways to develop her courage. One is through Kyubey by magic (which is the easiest path); the other way is more difficult and hurtful, the painful life experience and lessons she receives through friends, family members, and from strangers. But the most influential character in Madoka's life would be her mother, her source of wisdom, courage, and strength.<br />
** The [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD "Memories of you"]], states that Madoka used to have low self-esteem and doubts about herself until she became a magical girl.<br />
* It is suspected that the series is attempting to show the journey of a little girl growing up from a simple life that is then thrown into the realm of magic. From her innocent eyes she perceives the magical world to be good, fantastic, and pleasing. But once Madoka experiences the dark nature of the magic world, she attempts to escape from the dark world of magic and at the same time evade the cynical world of reality. During her scene with her mother, Madoka attempts to move from the hopeless world of reality into the realm of adulthood. However, because Madoka still retains her hopes and dreams some would suggest that Madoka, rather than being regressed into a childish person, is growing into a hopeful adult that dreams for a better future.<br />
** This is considered incorrect. In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption—this is one of the most important metaphors in the anime (If we were never corrupted, we would never be "mature", our true images, when not corrupted, are images of naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion). When one becomes an adult, most likely she becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that she cannot resonate with other people and the power of the light side (hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity" - "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart - the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep within her.<br />
* I concur. In the anime, Kyubey refers to the magical girls as "puella" (in the title, which should suggest even greater significance). Puella, as he phrased it, referred to an immature girl. He also mentioned that these girls "grow up" into witches, implying that with maturity comes darkness and pain. The "adulthood" that is referenced in this series refers mostly to the dark side of humanity. <br />
** During the old world, "maturity" is essentially the corruption of a girl's adolescence. Kyubey's process is an attempt to uncover the darkness and selfish nature of the girls by amplifying it during the developing period into a witch. Is not an issue of purity as much as an issue of naivete and inexperience innocence; Kyubey corrupts these girls because they haven't been exposed or experienced the gritty reality of the world. Their lives as magical girls shatter their ideal views of a mahou shoujo, in the case of Kyoko as an example. Even Madoka became a Witch, perhaps as a statement of the flawed nature of humanity. But there was also a message of hope, Ultimate Madoka, a version of hope and sacrifice that defeated her Superwitch counterpart. This new entity born of the same metamorphosis process overcame the corrupting process of the system and developed into a much more mature Madoka. The reason for this new change is because Madoka made her wish that reflected her part as a sensible young adult, with the guidance of self reflection and wise counsel from others. The previous Madoka versions failed because they didn't reach their natural maturity when they made their wishes; they made their wishes with the mental view of an innocent child who didnt fully mature or understood the world. This new Madoka carries with her the hopes of magical girls, not just her own. However, as a responsible adult she must fade from the world and help many girls by taking their impurities with her. Madoka knows that she cannot abandon them, no matter how much she would miss her family and friends. This new Madoka has inhered a new sense of maturity and adult responsibility. The process of maturing into a better person requires Madoka to inherit the traits that comes with adulthood. It doesnt mean that Madoka becomes a better adult automatically nor a corrupt adult either. It just means that Madoka cannot grow into maturity without taking the elements of adulthood with her. In the series, adulthood can much as mean corruption as well as a new sense of guardianship. In this new sense, maturity and adulthood are not exclusive. One can become an adult without maturing (a witch), but one cannot mature without becoming an adult. One great example of Madoka's maturity is respecting the magical girls' wishes and dreams by not undoing their wishes or undoing their deaths. Another example is Madoka's acceptance of the need of a system to repair the damage done to the universe. Madoka's system is not perfect but she attempts to adjust it to make it more fair. Rather than radically alter the world to an "ideal version" (or paradise, as [[Kriemhild Gretchen]] tried), Madoka accepts the world as it is and tries to work within it. Madoka is in the process of growing into a fine woman, just like her mother Junko.<br />
*** Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the magical girls in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purest souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but of all people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts are blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the magical girls in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption(absorbing the greatest darkness) from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels; in the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults (people whose true heart are blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, as stated, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonates with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart (subconsciousness) is like (the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings alone are all that I live for, what will create my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
**** I would like to point out that there is a contradiction. If only the purity of Madoka's soul can save the girls. Then what does one make of the other girls? If Madoka is so pure and the reason she became a Witch was because of the corruption tainting her heart, then what changed in the end? If magical girls are not selfish, does that make them selfless? If so, then why couldn't they overcome their own corruption? One cannot be selfless and selfish at the same time, this in essence is a contradiction. To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective. Mami wanted to live but she regretted her choice because she didn't think of saving her family at the time. Sayaka wanted to heal Kyosuke because she felt sorry for him, but she also admits too late that she also wanted his love. This is why Kyubey knows that any wish will be corrupted, because it gets twisted by its own logic.<br />
***** The taint made them selfish, this means the taint blinds them from seeing hope, and thus they're only controlled by their grief and despair. Madoka has selfish desires, but they vanished so quickly inside Madoka's heart because they're powerless, until Madoka is tainted by the darkness of the witch she had defeated(corruption thus pass from one to the other, and it is non-decreasing, like entropy). It is not the girls are not selfish at all, it is that though they're basically selfless, and they're much more selfless than most people, they have a desire to protect their own hearts. When darkness blinds them, their dark side is magnified while their good side being blinded, thus they become witches(notice that this is not a necessary cause of a magical girl being turned into a witch). One can be selfless and selfish at the same time, we have both the nature of selflessness and selfishness(desire to protect oneself), and when darkness blinds one, the two parts of us would be conflicting, and darkness may(or may not) win at the end. However, I do agree with this "To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective.". <br />
*****Unlike Sayaka, Madoka probably gets corrupted not because her wish gets twisted. It is possible her wish only got twisted after she became a witch, not before it, so perhaps it is not causing her transformation into a witch. As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected.<br />
******This is contradictory, all wishes get twisted according to Kyubey, because it never achieves the results one ever wants or expects. This is part of why girls gent transformed into Witches, it is part of the metamorphosis. This is already stated in [[Episode 11]]. Unless a counter-proof is provided, this is highly unlikely. In the case of Kyoko, while her wish was her innocent attempt to help her father, she failed to realized that she did not ask for her father's consent or opinion. Instead he felt he was used without his consent and that the magic spell was forced upon him.<br />
***This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor. This is, as it has been said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
****An argument can be said that its message is also about the hope of humanity, that even beyond the shadow of corruption there is a veil of hope for those who strife for it. Madoka, instead of turning her back to a corrupt world, decided she wanted to save it. If the world is corrupt, then it is assumed that is beyond saving. Instead, Madoka sacrificed herself to change the world into a better place. The new world is not perfect, it is still plagued with flaws and corruption, but it is also a little bit fair and merciful. <br />
***** When it is said that the world is hurrying to its ruin, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, it simply means that without people's resonance with hope, without any change, the world will surely destroys itself. But there is always hope, as what Madoka has shown to viewers, the power of hope can shatter all the darkness, and change the rule of universe, which is what will save humanity.<br />
***Madoka's maturity, as it has been stated, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. The words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".<br />
****This observation is essential to understanding the anime, it underlines that the story is of "coming of age" in an imperfect world. However, the series is not an attempt to attack adulthood, but illuminate the flaws of a cruel world that children are forced to grow into. The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers.<br />
*****It is suggested that the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood".<br />
<br />
==Magazine Article==<br />
*[[NewType_2011-07#Madoka_Character_Description|July's NewType article]]<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Kazumi Magica==<br />
[[File:Kazumi madoka.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
* Madoka's silhouette appeared once during Juubey's explanation about Magical Girl system. She also makes a single-panel cameo in the extra pages in the first volume of the collected edition.<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Oriko Magica==<br />
<blockquote>''"How can you be so calm, Homura-chan? Why? Why are you only saving me? You have such an incredible power, Homura-chan!!" <br \ > "If you're going to abandon everyone and run away, then you shouldn't save me...!"'' - Madoka, [[Oriko_Magica#Chapter_5:_That.27s_what_I.27m_here_for|Puella Magi Oriko Magica, Chapter 5]].</blockquote><br />
* Madoka appears in Chapter 3, asking [[Homura]] to go home with her, along with [[Sayaka]] and [[Hitomi]]. She is well protected by Homura and isn't aware of Magical Girl system.<br />
* She appears in Chapter 4 for one page. She is shown with her friends Homura, Sayaka and Hitomi going out for snacks after school.<br />
* In chapters 5 through 7, Mitakihara Junior High was attacked by [[Oriko]] and [[Kirika]]. Oriko spoke to the school through the school's broadcast system, and seemed to give a threatening look to Madoka as she claimed she defeat a creature of ultimate despair that will descend upon them. As a witch's barrier forms over the school, Madoka is separated from her friends attacked by familiars. Homura saves her in time, but Madoka demands to know why she does not help the other students. Homura knows she cannot save everyone, and wanted to try to save Madoka anyway. Madoka apologized as Homura puts her in a protective barrier so familiars cannot attack her and left to defeat the perpetrators. Madoka escaped from the protective barrier created by Homura, and tried to help Homura with Sayaka and Hitomi. {{spoiler|Madoka was Oriko's real target. The white magical girl wanted to kill her before she could contract and become a magical girl herself, and then the most powerful witch ever. She was killed by Oriko at the very end, when they were dying Oriko used a shard of Kirika's witch body to impale Madoka through the torso. Once Oriko died and the witch barrier was lifted, Hitomi and Sayaka mourning for the dead Madoka became visible.}}<br />
<br />
==Madoka in Madoka Magica Portable==<br />
{|class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" style="width:100%;"<br />
|-<br />
!style="text-align:left; padding:10px;"|Warning, this section contains spoilers on game endings.<br />
|-<br />
|style="padding:10px; background:#fff;"|<br />
<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Gallery==<br />
<br />
=== Official art ===<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Kaname Anime Design.jpg|Initial design<br />
File:Madoka Kaname Original Design.jpg|Original character design by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Madoka morning pajama.png|<br />
File:Sleepover.jpg|Madoka having a sleepover with friends<br />
File:Madoka bd1 4koma.jpg|Translated [[Ume Aoki|Ume]] 4koma from Madoka BD volume 1<br />
File:BD 4 Ume 4koma TL.jpg|Translated Ume 4koma from Madoka BD volume 4<br />
File:Autographed illustration umeaoki.JPG|Autographed illustration by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Ume madoka kyubey.jpg<br />
File:Ume aoki dojinshi madoka.jpg|[[Ume Aoki]]'s Dojinshi "RKGKMDK"<br />
File:Apricot +6.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup 2.jpg<br />
File:Madoka designs 1.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 2.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 3.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 4.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 5.jpg<br />
File:408.5.jpg|Animedia 2011-06<br />
File:Megami 04.2011 Madoka Pin-up.jpg|Megami magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:Nyantype 04.2011 Madoka Illustration.jpg|Nyantype magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:BD 1 Scan 8.jpg|from the Blu-Ray Volume 1 Booklet.<br />
File:MadokainKazumi.png|Madoka as drawn by Takashi Tensugi, the artist for [[Kazumi Magica]].<br />
File:MadokainOriko.png|Madoka as she appears in [[Oriko Magica]].<br />
File:Newtype 07 2011 p18 p19.jpg<br />
File:Madohomu prodsketch.jpg|Early production sketch of Madoka with Homura.<br />
File:PN 83.jpg<br />
File:Kisseymadokasketch.jpg|Goddess Madoka from the [[Puella Magi Production Notes|production notes]].<br />
File:Madoka magica anthology 1.jpg|Madoka Magica Anthology 1<br />
File:Ultimate Madoka settei information 6 official art BD 6.jpg|Ultimate Madoka by Ume Aoki.<br />
File:PN 09.jpg<br />
File:PN 56.jpg<br />
File:PN 57.jpg<br />
File:PN 58.jpg<br />
File:PN 59.jpg<br />
File:Animedia_2012-02_03.jpg|Animedia magazine, February 2012. Madoka's ring and fingernail mark as a magical girl are visible.<br />
File:618624.jpg<br />
File:20111112_3d97ad-2.jpg<br />
File:574169-1.jpg|Notice how Madoka's Soul Gem ring and fingernail marking are visible.<br />
File:Chibi_Madoka.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Screenshots ===<br />
==== Madoka as a regular girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Op_ep6_vs_ep5.jpg|Madoka x Madoka in the opening animation<br />
File:Madoka night clothes.jpg|Closeup of sleepy-eyed Madoka in the OP<br />
File:Madoka sleep on QB.gif|Sleepy Madoka<br />
File:Madoka is shy.gif|Madoka is shy<br />
File:Madoka family.gif|Madoka's family<br />
File:Madoka everyday life.gif|Madoka everyday life<br />
File:Madoka_ Sayaka_Hitomi.gif|Madoka & friends<br />
File:Madoka wakes up.gif|Madoka wakes up<br />
File:Madoka_Sayaka_Hitomi_playing.gif|Madoka Sayaka Hitomi playing<br />
File:Kaname-madoka.jpg|Madoka Kaname<br />
File:Screenshot madoka fascinating.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-loveletter.PNG|Madoka daydreaming about getting a love letter.<br />
File:Madoka-ponytail.jpg|Madoka with a ponytail<br />
File:Madoka crying.gif|Madoka crying<br />
File:Madoka received a gift.gif|Madoka received a gift <br />
File:Madoka is upset.gif|Madoka is upset<br />
File:Madoka_Sketch.jpg|A self-portrait. Drawing is one of Madoka's hobbies.<br />
File:Madoka hands.jpg|Closeup of Madoka's hands in [[Episode 10]] (TBS version), Timeline 1, when she is walking [[Homura]] to the nurse's office. She is known to be contracted by then. Note no Soul Gem ring or fingernail mark.<br />
File:Madoka tied up on the wheel of time.gif|Madoka tied up on the wheel of time<br />
File:Kaname_Madoka.png<br />
File:340798-madoka.jpg<br />
File:Ep6_madoka_long_hair.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000108.jpg<br />
File:464082.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000272-1.jpg<br />
File:Puella110_000043.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000292.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a Magical Girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-dodging.jpg|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka-dodging.gif|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka hug Homura.gif|Madoka hug Homura<br />
File:Madoka-mahou-shoujo.jpg|Madoka Kaname, Total Badass.<br />
File:Madoka hands 2.jpg|Madoka is purifying [[Homura]]'s Soul Gem in [[Episode 10]]'s Timeline 3. Again, note no fingernail mark.<br>[[:File:Madoka is purifying Homuras Soul Gem.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokamercy.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-soul-gem.jpg|Madoka's soul gem<br />
File:Madoka.png<br />
File:Tumblr_lk2ccuqv5G1qb7j0bo1_1280.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000091.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h50m38s0.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m14s99.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m45s157.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m48s189.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m54s246.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m59s46.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magika-10-mbs-x264-1920x1080-mp4-00001.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-10-large-06.jpg<br />
File:Madoka transformation_PSP.gif|Madoka's transformation in PSP GAME<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a witch ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-grief-seed.png|Madoka/Kriemhild's grief seed.<br />
File:Madoka-witch-first.jpg|Madoka's witch transformation in the second timeline.<br />
File:Kaname witch form power.jpg|Madoka's witch form.<br />
File:Madoka the Ultimate Witch.jpg|A closeup of the face of the ultimate witch form of Madoka born as a result of her wish in the story timeline.<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Fanart ===<br />
{{fanart}}<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Superfriends.png|Many experts believe something sort of like this happened after the final episode of Madoka Magica ended<br />
File:Madoka fuels the Universe.png|<br />
File:Aoki_ume_madoka_doujin_art_highrez.png|Fan coloring of Ume's work<br />
File:Madokami art front back.jpg|Madoka as the Goddess/concept of Hope<br />
File:Fan creation Madoka Soul Gem.jpg|Fan jewelry creation of Madoka's Soul Gem with a pink nebula inside (?) or a pink rose bud (?)<br />
File:MadoKami gundam.jpg|<br />
File:Scary madokami.jpg|You shall have no other gods before Me. That includes that wannabe Haruhi.<br />
File:MadoKami and Charlotte.jpg|Madoka rescues Charlotte.<br />
File:Madoka evolution magical girl.jpg|Madoka has evolved into MadoKami! <br />
File:It's tough to be a goddess.gif|No Mahou Shoujo Predator? But they are practically born into the hunting tradition!<br />
File:Madoka learning how to befriend.png|Madoka learning from the master.<br />
File:Meet the time traveler.jpg|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=36lSzUMBJnc Meet the Goddess]<br />
File:Namacha I Won't Allow That.png|MadoKami already abusing her Goddess powers, and we are fine with this.<br />
File:Madoprince homuprincess.jpg<br />
File:Chibimadokami.jpg|MadoKami died for our HHHNNNNNGGGGG~!<br />
File:Madoka pixel mugen.gif<br />
File:MadoKami all powerful fanart.jpg|''Thou Shall Have no Other Anime gods Before Me.''<br />
File:Madoka ;p fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka afro op fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka Ben-to.jpg|"And thus begins the "that character sounds like Madoka, imagine if she was the one to say that" adventures with Aoi Yuuki's characters.<br />
File:Madokami bow arrow aiming posture fanart.jpg<br />
File:AeFLl-1.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Miscellaneous ===<br />
<br />
==== Madoka's bow ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Bow.jpg|Rendition of Madoka's bow; it looks like a branch with a rose on its end<br />
File:Madoka-bow-firing.PNG|Madoka's bow in action<br />
File:Madoka-firing.jpg|You're gonna get befriended!<br>[[:File:Madoka shooting one arrow.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokas-arrow.jpg|A close-up of Madoka's arrow<br />
File:Madoka-multishot.jpg|Madoka using Multi-Shot<br>[[:File:Madoka multi shots.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:PN 13.jpg|Sketches from production notes.<br />
File:PN 14.jpg<br />
File:PN 22.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Aoi Yuki ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:BLT Aoi Yuki.jpg|Aoi Yuki. BLT magazine, 2011-6.<br />
File:Animedia 05.2011 Aoi Yuki DATA FILE.png|Aoi Yuki [[Animedia_2011-05|Data file]].<br />
File:Aoi yuki madoka.jpg<br />
File:Seiyuu aoi yuuki 2008 article picture.jpg<br />
File:Magical Girl Otona Anime 08.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Kriemhild Gretchen]], Madoka's witch form.<br />
* [[GetNavi 2011-12|GetNavi 2011-12]]<br />
* [[Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)|Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)]]<br />
* [[Animedia_2011-05#Aoi_Yuki_.28Madoka.29_Data_File|Aoi Yuki's Data file]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*{{pixiv_tag|鹿目まどか}}<br />
*{{booru_tag|danbooru|kaname_madoka}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Characters]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Madoka_Kaname&diff=45134Madoka Kaname2012-08-19T07:19:57Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div><blockquote>''"If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time."'' - Madoka Kaname, [[Episode 12]].</blockquote><br />
<br />
{{Infobox_character<br />
|name=Madoka Kaname<br />
|image=[[File:Madoka Chara Sheet.jpg|300px]]<br />
|jname=鹿目 まどか (Kaname Madoka) <br />
|voices=<br />
Japanese: [http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=creator&creatorid=1625 Aoi Yuuki]<br />English: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=95337 Christine Marie Cabanos]<br />Italian: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=70851 Joy Saltarelli]<br />
|age=14 <!-- via CM --><br />
|weapon=Bow<br />
}}<br />
'''Madoka Kaname''', the protagonist and title character, is a gentle and friendly 14 year old girl. Living an ordinary life, Madoka has a loving family and is surrounded by good friends. One day she had a dream of a mysterious girl who was fighting an ominous creature. The next day, [[Homura Akemi|Akemi Homura]], the girl from her dream, came to her class as a transfer student.<br />
<br />
==Official Info==<br />
* Character profile:<br />
** A good-natured and ordinary eighth-grader. She is the health coordinator in her class.<br />
** Even her bow-wielding magical girl form projects an air of kind friendliness. Her choker bears a pink gem.<br />
**[[Ume Aoki|Ms. Aoki]]’s Design Check!: I drew her keeping in mind that as the main character she needs to be average, but also an exceptionally good girl. Hence her puffy, high-placed twin tails. The design and color of her ribbons took a lot of work, but in the end calmed down to something simple.<br />
** Magical girl outfit: Madoka was drawn to be the very image of a magical girl. I added an almost fairy tale-ish hints, so hopefully female viewers will be charmed by her as well. (Aoki)<br />
** Full of tiny frills, with ribbons arranged at the neck, waist, and on the shoes. It’s perfectly “cute”, and seemingly unsuited for combat, but…<br />
** School uniform: Designed to convey the classy image of a private girls’ school, while not being -too- normal. Its distinguishing point is the small hole at the nape of the neck. (Aoki)<br />
** Of the heroines shown here, Madoka has the most childish body. Her legs are clad in pure, virginal white over-knee socks.<br />
* From the [[Pre-Broadcast November Advertisement|pre-broadcast November promotional video]]:<br />
** "A gentle 2nd year middle school girl who thinks of friends before herself."<br />
** "If anything could be granted with a magic…"<br />
** "What would you do?" <br />
* From the anime:<br />
** Madoka's mother, [[Junko Kaname|Junko]], commented that she has always been a good child and never lies.<br />
** Kyubey, Homura and Mami confirmed that Madoka has great magical potential.<br />
** Madoka is the only one without a transformation sequence as a magical girl within the Anime series.<br />
** Madoka became {{spoiler|the Embodiment of Hope in the finale.}}<br />
* A [[100 Questions|100 Question Survey]] has been published revealing details about Madoka such as her likes, dislikes, hobbies, and physical attributes.<br />
**Birthday: October 3<br />
**Blood Type: A<br />
**Height: Slightly less than 150cm (4'11"). Production Note shows a [[:Media:PN_10.jpg|height revision]] to 152cm (5'0").<br />
**Shoe size: 22 JP (Women's 5.5 US, Children's 4 US, 36 EU, 3 UK)<br />
* According to a [[NewType 2011-07]] interview with [[Gen Urobuchi]], the character Madoka is written based on Yuno from Hidamari Sketch (Aoki Ume's creation).<br />
** "To be honest, Madoka, the protagonist, is a pretty unusual character for my writing style."<br />
** "A foreign character that did not exist inside myself."<br />
** "I wrote the screenplay as if Yunocchi (from Hidamari Sketch) is to be put as the protagonist. I even had the preparation that seiyuu Asumi (Kana)-san would play her (lol)." <br />
** "I imagined all the other characters by starting from “Madoka = Yuno”."<br />
** "And every time I got Yunocchi to cry I got hated by the Hidamari fans more (lol)."<br />
<br />
==Trivia==<br />
* The characters of her last name mean "deer" (鹿) and "eye"(目), respectively.<br />
* Her last name can also be used as a first name.<br />
* Her last name sounds the same as (要), a word which means "keystone" or "hub".<br />
* Her first name is written in hiragana which has no particular meaning. However, when written in kanji, it can mean "round" or "tranquil" (円).<br />
* Madoka owns many stuffed animals in [[Madoka's House#Madoka's Room|her room]].<br />
* Madoka and [[Mami]] are the only Magical Girls known who are never seen having a mark on any of their fingernails. [[Homura]], [[Kyoko]] and [[Sayaka]] all have marks on their left middle fingers, matching the shape of the emblem of their respective Soul Gem.<br />
* Madoka is never seen with her Soul Gem in a ring form.<br />
* Madoka loves cats like Homura.<br />
* Aoi Yuuki (Madoka's VA) really likes [[Kyoko]] and she claimed that Kyoko is her wife. You can hear her confession in the [[:Talk:Drama_CD_2#Info_and_DL|Magical Girls Tea Party]] bonus CD.<br />
** In the commentary for [[Episode 5]] Aoi Yuki declares her love for Kyoko and desires to marry her. Ai Nonaka questions her choice and informs her all she ever does is eat. Aoi Yuki is ok with this and declares she would just adjust.<br />
*** In same comentary Chiwa Saitou sounds annoyed, some suggested perhaps she is jealous. But the question is, jealous of whom?<br />
** Aoi Yuuki [[:file:Going gaga for kyouko.jpg|goes even more gaga]] for Kyoko in the audio commentaries for [[Episode 7]]: "The one I love, it's Kyoko-tan." "Kyoko-tan is the absolute best!" "it's like she isn't trying to be cool, but she's still REALLY cool." <br />
**In the [[Talk:Key_Animation_Note|"C81 Aniplex Madoka Special Talk CD"]], not even two minutes has passed and Aoi Yuki's already fangirling over Kyoko-tan~ <br />
*Aoi Yuuki (Madoka) is trying to form [[:file:Aoi yuuki yuri harem.jpg|her own harem]]<br />
*Urobuchi in his audio commentary on BD/DVD 3 explains that he felt like Aoi Yuki was born for the role of Madoka. What he means is that she doesn't force herself into the role of becoming her character and she leaves the impression of being a natural airhead, but in a good way.<br />
*Madoka's last form is known as [[Blu-Ray_Volume_6_Booklet#Original_Design_Artworks_Six|Ultimate Madoka]]. Prior to this information, fans called her form "MadoKami", Godoka, or Goddess Madoka.<br />
**In one of the original artwork designs, it is noted that Madoka is holding a [[wikipedia:Shinai|shinai sword]] or a bow.<br />
*Madoka is a [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki Grade A Zettai Ryouiki] in her school uniform<br />
*Official information indicates that Madoka was born in October 3, making her a [[wikipedia:Libra_(astrology)|Libra]].<br />
*Wehihihi ♥ "ウェヒヒヒヒ" is an onomatopoeia for Madoka's trademark laughter. You can hear it [http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14436710 here.]<br />
<br />
==Observation==<br />
<br />
===Characterization===<br />
<blockquote>''"Madoka, you have grown to be a good girl. You don't lie and you dont do anything bad. You always try to do what is right. You are a wonderful child."'' - Junko, [[Episode 6]].</blockquote> <br />
<br />
* Madoka is a nice kid, somewhat naive due to being a teenager.<br />
** Friendly and gentle toward Homura, a new transfer student {{spoiler|no matter which timeline}}.<br />
** Wanted to be helpful to other people.<br />
** Admired Mami and was severely affected by her.{{spoiler| death}}<br />
** Constantly worried about Sayaka's safety and willing to face danger for her friend.<br />
*Madoka always tries to call other main characters their first names with postfix (-chan or -san) if possible. It may indicate that she is eager to get close to others. The only exception is Kamijou. Madoka might think it is not a good idea to get too close to him since she believes he could potentially become Sayaka's boyfriend. <br />
**This is confirmed in the PSP, when Madoka finally calls him by his first name, after Sayaka made advances with him in one of the endings.<br />
* A level-headed person, capable of making decisions on her own.<br />
** Didn't believe Homura is "totally evil" as she was told, and tried to understand her better based on what she observed.<br />
** Didn't wish to {{spoiler|revive Mami, who is just a new acquaintance}}, but was ready to sacrifice herself for her best friend [[Sayaka]]. This added to the realistic aspect of Madoka's character.<br />
** Tried to prevent Sayaka and Kyoko's unnecessary fight, and pursued Sayaka to solve conflicts by negotiation instead of violence.<br />
** Looked for advise from her mother without mentioning magic.<br />
** Can answer immediately to [[Kyubey]] that {{spoiler|even if the Incubators have good reason to collect energy, they are still humanity's enemy.}} This is demonstrates her understanding of humanity.<br />
** Kept calm toward Homura's revelation and reminded Sayaka not to stir conflicts between teammates (TL3).<br />
** Acted fast to take out {{spoiler|Mami}} and saved Homura (TL3).<br />
** {{spoiler|Used the last grief seed to save Homura because she wanted the latter to prevent a tragic outcome (TL3).}}<br />
** Thought of a wish that would bring the most benefits to other people based on the info she had.<br />
* The difference between the character of Madoka and the character of Sayaka: While both are good-hearted girls, Madoka never judges based on first impressions, never makes rash assumptions, and has the mentality to deal with truth. <br />
* Madoka's wishes always stemmed from her kindness.<br />
** From what we know until now, she contracted with Kyubey in order to {{spoiler|save a cat whom had just died in front of her (TL1), save Homura from Walpurgisnacht (TL4), and release Magical Girls in the past and future from their cursed fate of becoming witches (Episode 12)}}.<br />
** Asked to accompany Sayaka on her witch hunt just so that if the latter was ever in danger, she could make a wish and rescue Sayaka. She nearly made this wish in [[Episode 8]].<br />
** Madoka's kindness is one of the major reasons why Homura is so drawn to her. From [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD 1 ''"Memories of you"'']], {{spoiler|the reason Madoka became a Magical Girl in the first timeline is to save a cat which had been run over by a car. Madoka also treated Homura very nicely from the beginning, who at that time was being bullied. We also learn that whenever Madoka made a contract and become a Magical Girl, she would act much more confident since it gave her a sense of purpose. Homura's interventions during the course of the anime prevented this change.}}<br />
*According with Urobuchi, he made Junko a [[Blu-Ray_Volume_4_Booklet#Gen_Urobuchi_.28Screenplay_for_All_Episodes.29_.26_Akiyuki_Shinbo_.28Director.29_Conversation_Part_1|strong woman]] so Madoka would want to emulate her strength and courage.<br />
**It is possible that the reason Madoka feels so useless prior to becoming a magical girl, is that she consciously fails to measure to her own mother.<br />
***It is suggested that the reason Madoka is so miserable is that she wishes for power in order to be selfless so that she won't be miserable any more. Kyubey uses this to manipulate Madoka's thinking into making her wish through her guilt. He tries to manipulate Madoka into a belief that she can be free from her misery by making a selfless wish.<br />
***Without the wish and the life experience as a magical girl, Madoka's character never grows and develops into a courageous heroine. However, her life experience as a scared teenage girl, constantly crying and mourning the death of so many, always wanting to do what's right yet feeling powerless, the failure of attempting to save friends and strangers, and the sorrow she feels for the victims of innocent girls {{spoiler|deceived by a calculating cold alien allows Madoka to finally develops the courage to confront her fears to save Homura and the world, instead of succumbing to despair and running away, Madoka finally grows up. The scene with her mother in Episode 11 leaves that impression.}}<br />
*In [[Episode 6]], Junko and Madoka had a conversation on how difficult it is to do the right thing, even when no one is in the wrong (per say). Junko's advice was for Madoka to be on the wrong against her friend to solve the problem, even if it means that her friend would hate her for it. In [[Episode 11]] Junko confronts Madoka to stop her from getting into the danger of the storm, Madoka reminds her mother that she is a good girl and never does anything wrong but she tells her she needs to do this, a throwback to their earlier conversation. Madoka knows that what she is doing will worry her family, but she also knows that she must disobey her mother to save her family and her town. This conversation between Junko and Madoka earns her mother's trust.<br />
* In the [[Drama CD 2|Drama CD ''"Sunny Day Life"'']] Madoka ''used'' to get good grades, but her duties as a magical girl are interfering with her studies.<br />
** For what is worth, Madoka's grades are still better than Sayaka's.<br />
<br />
===Important Plot Points===<br />
* [[Episode 8]]: Kyubey claimed Madoka's power to be godlike, to the point where she could even change the laws of the universe if she wished for it.<br />
* [[Episode 10]]: {{spoiler|In the first timeline, Madoka along with Mami saved Homura from a familiar. She died during the fight with Walpurgis Night. In the second timeline, Madoka turned into a witch for the first time, revealing to Homura the link between Magical Girls and Witches. In a later timeline, Madoka killed Mami in order to save Homura, as Mami lost control of herself and had just killed Kyoko. This is also the timeline in which Madoka asked Homura to go back in time to prevent her from becoming a Magical Girl.}} Madoka's power increased exponentially {{spoiler|after every timeline. The first time showed she was an ordinary magical girl. In later timeline she had enough power to defeat Walpurgis in one shot, was capable of destroying the entire planet within 10 days in her witch form, and satisfied all Kyubey's energy quotas of the Earth.}} <br />
* [[Episode 11]]: {{spoiler|Homura's time repeats had linked multiple parallel universes together with Madoka's fate as their center. With every reset, Homura would force yet another parallel universe to be centered around Madoka. The accumulated karma is the reason why Madoka's potential power is so great.}} Hearing the revelations from Kyubey regarding the history of Magical Girls, Madoka was deeply hurt and thus wanted to save these girls from despair.<br />
* [[Episode 12]]: Madoka {{spoiler|wished to erase all witches in every dimension, in every timeline, with her own hands. This created a paradox because Madoka would eventually erase her own witch self, while she must continue to exist and destroy other witches. This paradox resulted in Madoka escaping the bounds of reality and ascending to godhood. Since Madoka never existed as a human in this new reality, she is no longer remembered by anyone, except for Homura. It has been suggested that Sayaka also remembers her in the new timeline as well, as Sayaka confesses to her in Episode 12 that she has caused her best friend a lot of trouble; this could be interpreted as Sayaka having learnt of her unfortunate fate of turning into a witch in the other timelines, an outcome which clearly inflicted a great deal of emotional hurt on Madoka. }}<br />
<br />
==Speculation==<br />
* Some fans speculate that Madoka presumably made a wish for a large cake in one of the timelines, under the influence of Mami.<br />
** However, this is highly debatable. {{spoiler|Her original wish to save Amy would still apply if her circumstances to the event remains the same.}}<br />
* Theoretically there is also the danger that, should Madoka become extremely powerful and turn into a witch, her power may be enough to destroy not only Earth, but the entire universe.<br />
** INCREDIBLY unlikely. Kyubey's species is (if they can be trusted) trying to save the universe in the first place, not trying to destroy it. They wouldn't create something they can't take down.<br />
*** Then again, Kyubey remarked in the fourth timeline that he didn't know Madoka would turn out to be so powerful. While in this timeline he probably knows (and definitely doesn't care) that the witch form of Madoka could destroy the Earth, he may not know the full extent of her power.<br />
*** Madoka's wish includes a hidden if-then clause {{spoiler|to prevent her from ever becoming a witch}}. Because her wish is to {{spoiler|erase all witches before they're born with her own hands, she has the power to erase her own witch from existence}}. Which is what we see happen.<br />
* It is speculated that any wish Madoka ever made would be twisted because of the nature of the wish, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey suspects that as long as the motives are selfish, the wish will always be twisted because the wishers' desire would always fail to meet their expectation.<br />
** It is speculated that Madoka realized that as long as her thinking was selfish or incorrect, then her wish would also be twisted. It is suspect that Madoka contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in [[Episode 11]], without being caught into the snare of the wish's trap. {{spoiler|It is suspected that Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence.}}<br />
*** A Philosophical analysis tries to determine Madoka's motive, [[Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive|Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive]]<br />
*An argument can be said that Madoka has two ways to develop her courage. One is through Kyubey by magic (which is the easiest path); the other way is more difficult and hurtful, the painful life experience and lessons she receives through friends, family members, and from strangers. But the most influential character in Madoka's life would be her mother, her source of wisdom, courage, and strength.<br />
** The [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD "Memories of you"]], states that Madoka used to have low self-esteem and doubts about herself until she became a magical girl.<br />
* It is suspected that the series is attempting to show the journey of a little girl growing up from a simple life that is then thrown into the realm of magic. From her innocent eyes she perceives the magical world to be good, fantastic, and pleasing. But once Madoka experiences the dark nature of the magic world, she attempts to escape from the dark world of magic and at the same time evade the cynical world of reality. During her scene with her mother, Madoka attempts to move from the hopeless world of reality into the realm of adulthood. However, because Madoka still retains her hopes and dreams some would suggest that Madoka, rather than being regressed into a childish person, is growing into a hopeful adult that dreams for a better future.<br />
** This is considered incorrect. In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption—this is one of the most important metaphors in the anime (If we were never corrupted, we would never be "mature", our true images, when not corrupted, are images of naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion). When one becomes an adult, most likely she becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that she cannot resonate with other people and the power of the light side (hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity" - "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart - the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep within her.<br />
* I concur. In the anime, Kyubey refers to the magical girls as "puella" (in the title, which should suggest even greater significance). Puella, as he phrased it, referred to an immature girl. He also mentioned that these girls "grow up" into witches, implying that with maturity comes darkness and pain. The "adulthood" that is referenced in this series refers mostly to the dark side of humanity. <br />
** During the old world, "maturity" is essentially the corruption of a girl's adolescence. Kyubey's process is an attempt to uncover the darkness and selfish nature of the girls by amplifying it during the developing period into a witch. Is not an issue of purity as much as an issue of naivete and inexperience innocence; Kyubey corrupts these girls because they haven't been exposed or experienced the gritty reality of the world. Their lives as magical girls shatter their ideal views of a mahou shoujo, in the case of Kyoko as an example. Even Madoka became a Witch, perhaps as a statement of the flawed nature of humanity. But there was also a message of hope, Ultimate Madoka, a version of hope and sacrifice that defeated her Superwitch counterpart. This new entity born of the same metamorphosis process overcame the corrupting process of the system and developed into a much more mature Madoka. The reason for this new change is because Madoka made her wish that reflected her part as a sensible young adult, with the guidance of self reflection and wise counsel from others. The previous Madoka versions failed because they didn't reach their natural maturity when they made their wishes; they made their wishes with the mental view of an innocent child who didnt fully mature or understood the world. This new Madoka carries with her the hopes of magical girls, not just her own. However, as a responsible adult she must fade from the world and help many girls by taking their impurities with her. Madoka knows that she cannot abandon them, no matter how much she would miss her family and friends. This new Madoka has inhered a new sense of maturity and adult responsibility. The process of maturing into a better person requires Madoka to inherit the traits that comes with adulthood. It doesnt mean that Madoka becomes a better adult automatically nor a corrupt adult either. It just means that Madoka cannot grow into maturity without taking the elements of adulthood with her. In the series, adulthood can much as mean corruption as well as a new sense of guardianship. In this new sense, maturity and adulthood are not exclusive. One can become an adult without maturing (a witch), but one cannot mature without becoming an adult. One great example of Madoka's maturity is respecting the magical girls' wishes and dreams by not undoing their wishes or undoing their deaths. Another example is Madoka's acceptance of the need of a system to repair the damage done to the universe. Madoka's system is not perfect but she attempts to adjust it to make it more fair. Rather than radically alter the world to an "ideal version" (or paradise, as [[Kriemhild Gretchen]] tried), Madoka accepts the world as it is and tries to work within it. Madoka is in the process of growing into a fine woman, just like her mother Junko.<br />
*** Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the magical girls in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purest souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but of all people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts are blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the magical girls in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption(absorbing the greatest darkness) from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels; in the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults (people whose true heart are blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, as stated, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonates with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart (subconsciousness) is like (the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings alone are all that I live for, what will create my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
**** I would like to point out that there is a contradiction. If only the purity of Madoka's soul can save the girls. Then what does one make of the other girls? If Madoka is so pure and the reason she became a Witch was because of the corruption tainting her heart, then what changed in the end? If magical girls are not selfish, does that make them selfless? If so, then why couldn't they overcome their own corruption? One cannot be selfless and selfish at the same time, this in essence is a contradiction. To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective. Mami wanted to live but she regretted her choice because she didn't think of saving her family at the time. Sayaka wanted to heal Kyosuke because she felt sorry for him, but she also admits too late that she also wanted his love. This is why Kyubey knows that any wish will be corrupted, because it gets twisted by its own logic.<br />
***** The taint made them selfish, this means the taint blinds them from seeing hope, and thus they're only controlled by their grief and despair. Madoka has selfish desires, but they vanished so quickly inside Madoka's heart because they're powerless, until Madoka is tainted by the darkness of the witch she had defeated(corruption thus pass from one to the other, and it is non-decreasing, like entropy). It is not the girls are not selfish at all, it is that though they're basically selfless, and they're much more selfless than most people, they have a desire to protect their own hearts. When darkness blinds them, their dark side is magnified while their good side being blinded, thus they become witches. One can be selfless and selfish at the same time, we have both the nature of selflessness and selfishness(desire to protect oneself), and when darkness blinds one, the two parts of us would be conflicting, and darkness may(or may not) win at the end. However, I do agree with this "To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective.". <br />
*****Unlike Sayaka, Madoka probably gets corrupted not because her wish gets twisted. It is possible her wish only got twisted after she became a witch, not before it, so perhaps it is not causing her transformation into a witch. As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected.<br />
******This is contradictory, all wishes get twisted according to Kyubey, because it never achieves the results one ever wants or expects. This is part of why girls gent transformed into Witches, it is part of the metamorphosis. This is already stated in [[Episode 11]]. Unless a counter-proof is provided, this is highly unlikely. In the case of Kyoko, while her wish was her innocent attempt to help her father, she failed to realized that she did not ask for her father's consent or opinion. Instead he felt he was used without his consent and that the magic spell was forced upon him.<br />
***This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor. This is, as it has been said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
****An argument can be said that its message is also about the hope of humanity, that even beyond the shadow of corruption there is a veil of hope for those who strife for it. Madoka, instead of turning her back to a corrupt world, decided she wanted to save it. If the world is corrupt, then it is assumed that is beyond saving. Instead, Madoka sacrificed herself to change the world into a better place. The new world is not perfect, it is still plagued with flaws and corruption, but it is also a little bit fair and merciful. <br />
***** When it is said that the world is hurrying to its ruin, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, it simply means that without people's resonance with hope, without any change, the world will surely destroys itself. But there is always hope, as what Madoka has shown to viewers, the power of hope can shatter all the darkness, and change the rule of universe, which is what will save humanity.<br />
***Madoka's maturity, as it has been stated, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. The words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".<br />
****This observation is essential to understanding the anime, it underlines that the story is of "coming of age" in an imperfect world. However, the series is not an attempt to attack adulthood, but illuminate the flaws of a cruel world that children are forced to grow into. The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers.<br />
*****It is suggested that the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood".<br />
<br />
==Magazine Article==<br />
*[[NewType_2011-07#Madoka_Character_Description|July's NewType article]]<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Kazumi Magica==<br />
[[File:Kazumi madoka.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
* Madoka's silhouette appeared once during Juubey's explanation about Magical Girl system. She also makes a single-panel cameo in the extra pages in the first volume of the collected edition.<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Oriko Magica==<br />
<blockquote>''"How can you be so calm, Homura-chan? Why? Why are you only saving me? You have such an incredible power, Homura-chan!!" <br \ > "If you're going to abandon everyone and run away, then you shouldn't save me...!"'' - Madoka, [[Oriko_Magica#Chapter_5:_That.27s_what_I.27m_here_for|Puella Magi Oriko Magica, Chapter 5]].</blockquote><br />
* Madoka appears in Chapter 3, asking [[Homura]] to go home with her, along with [[Sayaka]] and [[Hitomi]]. She is well protected by Homura and isn't aware of Magical Girl system.<br />
* She appears in Chapter 4 for one page. She is shown with her friends Homura, Sayaka and Hitomi going out for snacks after school.<br />
* In chapters 5 through 7, Mitakihara Junior High was attacked by [[Oriko]] and [[Kirika]]. Oriko spoke to the school through the school's broadcast system, and seemed to give a threatening look to Madoka as she claimed she defeat a creature of ultimate despair that will descend upon them. As a witch's barrier forms over the school, Madoka is separated from her friends attacked by familiars. Homura saves her in time, but Madoka demands to know why she does not help the other students. Homura knows she cannot save everyone, and wanted to try to save Madoka anyway. Madoka apologized as Homura puts her in a protective barrier so familiars cannot attack her and left to defeat the perpetrators. Madoka escaped from the protective barrier created by Homura, and tried to help Homura with Sayaka and Hitomi. {{spoiler|Madoka was Oriko's real target. The white magical girl wanted to kill her before she could contract and become a magical girl herself, and then the most powerful witch ever. She was killed by Oriko at the very end, when they were dying Oriko used a shard of Kirika's witch body to impale Madoka through the torso. Once Oriko died and the witch barrier was lifted, Hitomi and Sayaka mourning for the dead Madoka became visible.}}<br />
<br />
==Madoka in Madoka Magica Portable==<br />
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!style="text-align:left; padding:10px;"|Warning, this section contains spoilers on game endings.<br />
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<br />
==Gallery==<br />
<br />
=== Official art ===<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Kaname Anime Design.jpg|Initial design<br />
File:Madoka Kaname Original Design.jpg|Original character design by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Madoka morning pajama.png|<br />
File:Sleepover.jpg|Madoka having a sleepover with friends<br />
File:Madoka bd1 4koma.jpg|Translated [[Ume Aoki|Ume]] 4koma from Madoka BD volume 1<br />
File:BD 4 Ume 4koma TL.jpg|Translated Ume 4koma from Madoka BD volume 4<br />
File:Autographed illustration umeaoki.JPG|Autographed illustration by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Ume madoka kyubey.jpg<br />
File:Ume aoki dojinshi madoka.jpg|[[Ume Aoki]]'s Dojinshi "RKGKMDK"<br />
File:Apricot +6.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup 2.jpg<br />
File:Madoka designs 1.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 2.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 3.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 4.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 5.jpg<br />
File:408.5.jpg|Animedia 2011-06<br />
File:Megami 04.2011 Madoka Pin-up.jpg|Megami magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:Nyantype 04.2011 Madoka Illustration.jpg|Nyantype magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:BD 1 Scan 8.jpg|from the Blu-Ray Volume 1 Booklet.<br />
File:MadokainKazumi.png|Madoka as drawn by Takashi Tensugi, the artist for [[Kazumi Magica]].<br />
File:MadokainOriko.png|Madoka as she appears in [[Oriko Magica]].<br />
File:Newtype 07 2011 p18 p19.jpg<br />
File:Madohomu prodsketch.jpg|Early production sketch of Madoka with Homura.<br />
File:PN 83.jpg<br />
File:Kisseymadokasketch.jpg|Goddess Madoka from the [[Puella Magi Production Notes|production notes]].<br />
File:Madoka magica anthology 1.jpg|Madoka Magica Anthology 1<br />
File:Ultimate Madoka settei information 6 official art BD 6.jpg|Ultimate Madoka by Ume Aoki.<br />
File:PN 09.jpg<br />
File:PN 56.jpg<br />
File:PN 57.jpg<br />
File:PN 58.jpg<br />
File:PN 59.jpg<br />
File:Animedia_2012-02_03.jpg|Animedia magazine, February 2012. Madoka's ring and fingernail mark as a magical girl are visible.<br />
File:618624.jpg<br />
File:20111112_3d97ad-2.jpg<br />
File:574169-1.jpg|Notice how Madoka's Soul Gem ring and fingernail marking are visible.<br />
File:Chibi_Madoka.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Screenshots ===<br />
==== Madoka as a regular girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Op_ep6_vs_ep5.jpg|Madoka x Madoka in the opening animation<br />
File:Madoka night clothes.jpg|Closeup of sleepy-eyed Madoka in the OP<br />
File:Madoka sleep on QB.gif|Sleepy Madoka<br />
File:Madoka is shy.gif|Madoka is shy<br />
File:Madoka family.gif|Madoka's family<br />
File:Madoka everyday life.gif|Madoka everyday life<br />
File:Madoka_ Sayaka_Hitomi.gif|Madoka & friends<br />
File:Madoka wakes up.gif|Madoka wakes up<br />
File:Madoka_Sayaka_Hitomi_playing.gif|Madoka Sayaka Hitomi playing<br />
File:Kaname-madoka.jpg|Madoka Kaname<br />
File:Screenshot madoka fascinating.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-loveletter.PNG|Madoka daydreaming about getting a love letter.<br />
File:Madoka-ponytail.jpg|Madoka with a ponytail<br />
File:Madoka crying.gif|Madoka crying<br />
File:Madoka received a gift.gif|Madoka received a gift <br />
File:Madoka is upset.gif|Madoka is upset<br />
File:Madoka_Sketch.jpg|A self-portrait. Drawing is one of Madoka's hobbies.<br />
File:Madoka hands.jpg|Closeup of Madoka's hands in [[Episode 10]] (TBS version), Timeline 1, when she is walking [[Homura]] to the nurse's office. She is known to be contracted by then. Note no Soul Gem ring or fingernail mark.<br />
File:Madoka tied up on the wheel of time.gif|Madoka tied up on the wheel of time<br />
File:Kaname_Madoka.png<br />
File:340798-madoka.jpg<br />
File:Ep6_madoka_long_hair.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000108.jpg<br />
File:464082.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000272-1.jpg<br />
File:Puella110_000043.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000292.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a Magical Girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-dodging.jpg|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka-dodging.gif|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka hug Homura.gif|Madoka hug Homura<br />
File:Madoka-mahou-shoujo.jpg|Madoka Kaname, Total Badass.<br />
File:Madoka hands 2.jpg|Madoka is purifying [[Homura]]'s Soul Gem in [[Episode 10]]'s Timeline 3. Again, note no fingernail mark.<br>[[:File:Madoka is purifying Homuras Soul Gem.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokamercy.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-soul-gem.jpg|Madoka's soul gem<br />
File:Madoka.png<br />
File:Tumblr_lk2ccuqv5G1qb7j0bo1_1280.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000091.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h50m38s0.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m14s99.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m45s157.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m48s189.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m54s246.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m59s46.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magika-10-mbs-x264-1920x1080-mp4-00001.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-10-large-06.jpg<br />
File:Madoka transformation_PSP.gif|Madoka's transformation in PSP GAME<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a witch ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-grief-seed.png|Madoka/Kriemhild's grief seed.<br />
File:Madoka-witch-first.jpg|Madoka's witch transformation in the second timeline.<br />
File:Kaname witch form power.jpg|Madoka's witch form.<br />
File:Madoka the Ultimate Witch.jpg|A closeup of the face of the ultimate witch form of Madoka born as a result of her wish in the story timeline.<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Fanart ===<br />
{{fanart}}<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Superfriends.png|Many experts believe something sort of like this happened after the final episode of Madoka Magica ended<br />
File:Madoka fuels the Universe.png|<br />
File:Aoki_ume_madoka_doujin_art_highrez.png|Fan coloring of Ume's work<br />
File:Madokami art front back.jpg|Madoka as the Goddess/concept of Hope<br />
File:Fan creation Madoka Soul Gem.jpg|Fan jewelry creation of Madoka's Soul Gem with a pink nebula inside (?) or a pink rose bud (?)<br />
File:MadoKami gundam.jpg|<br />
File:Scary madokami.jpg|You shall have no other gods before Me. That includes that wannabe Haruhi.<br />
File:MadoKami and Charlotte.jpg|Madoka rescues Charlotte.<br />
File:Madoka evolution magical girl.jpg|Madoka has evolved into MadoKami! <br />
File:It's tough to be a goddess.gif|No Mahou Shoujo Predator? But they are practically born into the hunting tradition!<br />
File:Madoka learning how to befriend.png|Madoka learning from the master.<br />
File:Meet the time traveler.jpg|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=36lSzUMBJnc Meet the Goddess]<br />
File:Namacha I Won't Allow That.png|MadoKami already abusing her Goddess powers, and we are fine with this.<br />
File:Madoprince homuprincess.jpg<br />
File:Chibimadokami.jpg|MadoKami died for our HHHNNNNNGGGGG~!<br />
File:Madoka pixel mugen.gif<br />
File:MadoKami all powerful fanart.jpg|''Thou Shall Have no Other Anime gods Before Me.''<br />
File:Madoka ;p fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka afro op fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka Ben-to.jpg|"And thus begins the "that character sounds like Madoka, imagine if she was the one to say that" adventures with Aoi Yuuki's characters.<br />
File:Madokami bow arrow aiming posture fanart.jpg<br />
File:AeFLl-1.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Miscellaneous ===<br />
<br />
==== Madoka's bow ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Bow.jpg|Rendition of Madoka's bow; it looks like a branch with a rose on its end<br />
File:Madoka-bow-firing.PNG|Madoka's bow in action<br />
File:Madoka-firing.jpg|You're gonna get befriended!<br>[[:File:Madoka shooting one arrow.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokas-arrow.jpg|A close-up of Madoka's arrow<br />
File:Madoka-multishot.jpg|Madoka using Multi-Shot<br>[[:File:Madoka multi shots.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:PN 13.jpg|Sketches from production notes.<br />
File:PN 14.jpg<br />
File:PN 22.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Aoi Yuki ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:BLT Aoi Yuki.jpg|Aoi Yuki. BLT magazine, 2011-6.<br />
File:Animedia 05.2011 Aoi Yuki DATA FILE.png|Aoi Yuki [[Animedia_2011-05|Data file]].<br />
File:Aoi yuki madoka.jpg<br />
File:Seiyuu aoi yuuki 2008 article picture.jpg<br />
File:Magical Girl Otona Anime 08.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Kriemhild Gretchen]], Madoka's witch form.<br />
* [[GetNavi 2011-12|GetNavi 2011-12]]<br />
* [[Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)|Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)]]<br />
* [[Animedia_2011-05#Aoi_Yuki_.28Madoka.29_Data_File|Aoi Yuki's Data file]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*{{pixiv_tag|鹿目まどか}}<br />
*{{booru_tag|danbooru|kaname_madoka}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Characters]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Madoka_Kaname&diff=45133Madoka Kaname2012-08-19T07:18:06Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div><blockquote>''"If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time."'' - Madoka Kaname, [[Episode 12]].</blockquote><br />
<br />
{{Infobox_character<br />
|name=Madoka Kaname<br />
|image=[[File:Madoka Chara Sheet.jpg|300px]]<br />
|jname=鹿目 まどか (Kaname Madoka) <br />
|voices=<br />
Japanese: [http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=creator&creatorid=1625 Aoi Yuuki]<br />English: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=95337 Christine Marie Cabanos]<br />Italian: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=70851 Joy Saltarelli]<br />
|age=14 <!-- via CM --><br />
|weapon=Bow<br />
}}<br />
'''Madoka Kaname''', the protagonist and title character, is a gentle and friendly 14 year old girl. Living an ordinary life, Madoka has a loving family and is surrounded by good friends. One day she had a dream of a mysterious girl who was fighting an ominous creature. The next day, [[Homura Akemi|Akemi Homura]], the girl from her dream, came to her class as a transfer student.<br />
<br />
==Official Info==<br />
* Character profile:<br />
** A good-natured and ordinary eighth-grader. She is the health coordinator in her class.<br />
** Even her bow-wielding magical girl form projects an air of kind friendliness. Her choker bears a pink gem.<br />
**[[Ume Aoki|Ms. Aoki]]’s Design Check!: I drew her keeping in mind that as the main character she needs to be average, but also an exceptionally good girl. Hence her puffy, high-placed twin tails. The design and color of her ribbons took a lot of work, but in the end calmed down to something simple.<br />
** Magical girl outfit: Madoka was drawn to be the very image of a magical girl. I added an almost fairy tale-ish hints, so hopefully female viewers will be charmed by her as well. (Aoki)<br />
** Full of tiny frills, with ribbons arranged at the neck, waist, and on the shoes. It’s perfectly “cute”, and seemingly unsuited for combat, but…<br />
** School uniform: Designed to convey the classy image of a private girls’ school, while not being -too- normal. Its distinguishing point is the small hole at the nape of the neck. (Aoki)<br />
** Of the heroines shown here, Madoka has the most childish body. Her legs are clad in pure, virginal white over-knee socks.<br />
* From the [[Pre-Broadcast November Advertisement|pre-broadcast November promotional video]]:<br />
** "A gentle 2nd year middle school girl who thinks of friends before herself."<br />
** "If anything could be granted with a magic…"<br />
** "What would you do?" <br />
* From the anime:<br />
** Madoka's mother, [[Junko Kaname|Junko]], commented that she has always been a good child and never lies.<br />
** Kyubey, Homura and Mami confirmed that Madoka has great magical potential.<br />
** Madoka is the only one without a transformation sequence as a magical girl within the Anime series.<br />
** Madoka became {{spoiler|the Embodiment of Hope in the finale.}}<br />
* A [[100 Questions|100 Question Survey]] has been published revealing details about Madoka such as her likes, dislikes, hobbies, and physical attributes.<br />
**Birthday: October 3<br />
**Blood Type: A<br />
**Height: Slightly less than 150cm (4'11"). Production Note shows a [[:Media:PN_10.jpg|height revision]] to 152cm (5'0").<br />
**Shoe size: 22 JP (Women's 5.5 US, Children's 4 US, 36 EU, 3 UK)<br />
* According to a [[NewType 2011-07]] interview with [[Gen Urobuchi]], the character Madoka is written based on Yuno from Hidamari Sketch (Aoki Ume's creation).<br />
** "To be honest, Madoka, the protagonist, is a pretty unusual character for my writing style."<br />
** "A foreign character that did not exist inside myself."<br />
** "I wrote the screenplay as if Yunocchi (from Hidamari Sketch) is to be put as the protagonist. I even had the preparation that seiyuu Asumi (Kana)-san would play her (lol)." <br />
** "I imagined all the other characters by starting from “Madoka = Yuno”."<br />
** "And every time I got Yunocchi to cry I got hated by the Hidamari fans more (lol)."<br />
<br />
==Trivia==<br />
* The characters of her last name mean "deer" (鹿) and "eye"(目), respectively.<br />
* Her last name can also be used as a first name.<br />
* Her last name sounds the same as (要), a word which means "keystone" or "hub".<br />
* Her first name is written in hiragana which has no particular meaning. However, when written in kanji, it can mean "round" or "tranquil" (円).<br />
* Madoka owns many stuffed animals in [[Madoka's House#Madoka's Room|her room]].<br />
* Madoka and [[Mami]] are the only Magical Girls known who are never seen having a mark on any of their fingernails. [[Homura]], [[Kyoko]] and [[Sayaka]] all have marks on their left middle fingers, matching the shape of the emblem of their respective Soul Gem.<br />
* Madoka is never seen with her Soul Gem in a ring form.<br />
* Madoka loves cats like Homura.<br />
* Aoi Yuuki (Madoka's VA) really likes [[Kyoko]] and she claimed that Kyoko is her wife. You can hear her confession in the [[:Talk:Drama_CD_2#Info_and_DL|Magical Girls Tea Party]] bonus CD.<br />
** In the commentary for [[Episode 5]] Aoi Yuki declares her love for Kyoko and desires to marry her. Ai Nonaka questions her choice and informs her all she ever does is eat. Aoi Yuki is ok with this and declares she would just adjust.<br />
*** In same comentary Chiwa Saitou sounds annoyed, some suggested perhaps she is jealous. But the question is, jealous of whom?<br />
** Aoi Yuuki [[:file:Going gaga for kyouko.jpg|goes even more gaga]] for Kyoko in the audio commentaries for [[Episode 7]]: "The one I love, it's Kyoko-tan." "Kyoko-tan is the absolute best!" "it's like she isn't trying to be cool, but she's still REALLY cool." <br />
**In the [[Talk:Key_Animation_Note|"C81 Aniplex Madoka Special Talk CD"]], not even two minutes has passed and Aoi Yuki's already fangirling over Kyoko-tan~ <br />
*Aoi Yuuki (Madoka) is trying to form [[:file:Aoi yuuki yuri harem.jpg|her own harem]]<br />
*Urobuchi in his audio commentary on BD/DVD 3 explains that he felt like Aoi Yuki was born for the role of Madoka. What he means is that she doesn't force herself into the role of becoming her character and she leaves the impression of being a natural airhead, but in a good way.<br />
*Madoka's last form is known as [[Blu-Ray_Volume_6_Booklet#Original_Design_Artworks_Six|Ultimate Madoka]]. Prior to this information, fans called her form "MadoKami", Godoka, or Goddess Madoka.<br />
**In one of the original artwork designs, it is noted that Madoka is holding a [[wikipedia:Shinai|shinai sword]] or a bow.<br />
*Madoka is a [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki Grade A Zettai Ryouiki] in her school uniform<br />
*Official information indicates that Madoka was born in October 3, making her a [[wikipedia:Libra_(astrology)|Libra]].<br />
*Wehihihi ♥ "ウェヒヒヒヒ" is an onomatopoeia for Madoka's trademark laughter. You can hear it [http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14436710 here.]<br />
<br />
==Observation==<br />
<br />
===Characterization===<br />
<blockquote>''"Madoka, you have grown to be a good girl. You don't lie and you dont do anything bad. You always try to do what is right. You are a wonderful child."'' - Junko, [[Episode 6]].</blockquote> <br />
<br />
* Madoka is a nice kid, somewhat naive due to being a teenager.<br />
** Friendly and gentle toward Homura, a new transfer student {{spoiler|no matter which timeline}}.<br />
** Wanted to be helpful to other people.<br />
** Admired Mami and was severely affected by her.{{spoiler| death}}<br />
** Constantly worried about Sayaka's safety and willing to face danger for her friend.<br />
*Madoka always tries to call other main characters their first names with postfix (-chan or -san) if possible. It may indicate that she is eager to get close to others. The only exception is Kamijou. Madoka might think it is not a good idea to get too close to him since she believes he could potentially become Sayaka's boyfriend. <br />
**This is confirmed in the PSP, when Madoka finally calls him by his first name, after Sayaka made advances with him in one of the endings.<br />
* A level-headed person, capable of making decisions on her own.<br />
** Didn't believe Homura is "totally evil" as she was told, and tried to understand her better based on what she observed.<br />
** Didn't wish to {{spoiler|revive Mami, who is just a new acquaintance}}, but was ready to sacrifice herself for her best friend [[Sayaka]]. This added to the realistic aspect of Madoka's character.<br />
** Tried to prevent Sayaka and Kyoko's unnecessary fight, and pursued Sayaka to solve conflicts by negotiation instead of violence.<br />
** Looked for advise from her mother without mentioning magic.<br />
** Can answer immediately to [[Kyubey]] that {{spoiler|even if the Incubators have good reason to collect energy, they are still humanity's enemy.}} This is demonstrates her understanding of humanity.<br />
** Kept calm toward Homura's revelation and reminded Sayaka not to stir conflicts between teammates (TL3).<br />
** Acted fast to take out {{spoiler|Mami}} and saved Homura (TL3).<br />
** {{spoiler|Used the last grief seed to save Homura because she wanted the latter to prevent a tragic outcome (TL3).}}<br />
** Thought of a wish that would bring the most benefits to other people based on the info she had.<br />
* The difference between the character of Madoka and the character of Sayaka: While both are good-hearted girls, Madoka never judges based on first impressions, never makes rash assumptions, and has the mentality to deal with truth. <br />
* Madoka's wishes always stemmed from her kindness.<br />
** From what we know until now, she contracted with Kyubey in order to {{spoiler|save a cat whom had just died in front of her (TL1), save Homura from Walpurgisnacht (TL4), and release Magical Girls in the past and future from their cursed fate of becoming witches (Episode 12)}}.<br />
** Asked to accompany Sayaka on her witch hunt just so that if the latter was ever in danger, she could make a wish and rescue Sayaka. She nearly made this wish in [[Episode 8]].<br />
** Madoka's kindness is one of the major reasons why Homura is so drawn to her. From [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD 1 ''"Memories of you"'']], {{spoiler|the reason Madoka became a Magical Girl in the first timeline is to save a cat which had been run over by a car. Madoka also treated Homura very nicely from the beginning, who at that time was being bullied. We also learn that whenever Madoka made a contract and become a Magical Girl, she would act much more confident since it gave her a sense of purpose. Homura's interventions during the course of the anime prevented this change.}}<br />
*According with Urobuchi, he made Junko a [[Blu-Ray_Volume_4_Booklet#Gen_Urobuchi_.28Screenplay_for_All_Episodes.29_.26_Akiyuki_Shinbo_.28Director.29_Conversation_Part_1|strong woman]] so Madoka would want to emulate her strength and courage.<br />
**It is possible that the reason Madoka feels so useless prior to becoming a magical girl, is that she consciously fails to measure to her own mother.<br />
***It is suggested that the reason Madoka is so miserable is that she wishes for power in order to be selfless so that she won't be miserable any more. Kyubey uses this to manipulate Madoka's thinking into making her wish through her guilt. He tries to manipulate Madoka into a belief that she can be free from her misery by making a selfless wish.<br />
***Without the wish and the life experience as a magical girl, Madoka's character never grows and develops into a courageous heroine. However, her life experience as a scared teenage girl, constantly crying and mourning the death of so many, always wanting to do what's right yet feeling powerless, the failure of attempting to save friends and strangers, and the sorrow she feels for the victims of innocent girls {{spoiler|deceived by a calculating cold alien allows Madoka to finally develops the courage to confront her fears to save Homura and the world, instead of succumbing to despair and running away, Madoka finally grows up. The scene with her mother in Episode 11 leaves that impression.}}<br />
*In [[Episode 6]], Junko and Madoka had a conversation on how difficult it is to do the right thing, even when no one is in the wrong (per say). Junko's advice was for Madoka to be on the wrong against her friend to solve the problem, even if it means that her friend would hate her for it. In [[Episode 11]] Junko confronts Madoka to stop her from getting into the danger of the storm, Madoka reminds her mother that she is a good girl and never does anything wrong but she tells her she needs to do this, a throwback to their earlier conversation. Madoka knows that what she is doing will worry her family, but she also knows that she must disobey her mother to save her family and her town. This conversation between Junko and Madoka earns her mother's trust.<br />
* In the [[Drama CD 2|Drama CD ''"Sunny Day Life"'']] Madoka ''used'' to get good grades, but her duties as a magical girl are interfering with her studies.<br />
** For what is worth, Madoka's grades are still better than Sayaka's.<br />
<br />
===Important Plot Points===<br />
* [[Episode 8]]: Kyubey claimed Madoka's power to be godlike, to the point where she could even change the laws of the universe if she wished for it.<br />
* [[Episode 10]]: {{spoiler|In the first timeline, Madoka along with Mami saved Homura from a familiar. She died during the fight with Walpurgis Night. In the second timeline, Madoka turned into a witch for the first time, revealing to Homura the link between Magical Girls and Witches. In a later timeline, Madoka killed Mami in order to save Homura, as Mami lost control of herself and had just killed Kyoko. This is also the timeline in which Madoka asked Homura to go back in time to prevent her from becoming a Magical Girl.}} Madoka's power increased exponentially {{spoiler|after every timeline. The first time showed she was an ordinary magical girl. In later timeline she had enough power to defeat Walpurgis in one shot, was capable of destroying the entire planet within 10 days in her witch form, and satisfied all Kyubey's energy quotas of the Earth.}} <br />
* [[Episode 11]]: {{spoiler|Homura's time repeats had linked multiple parallel universes together with Madoka's fate as their center. With every reset, Homura would force yet another parallel universe to be centered around Madoka. The accumulated karma is the reason why Madoka's potential power is so great.}} Hearing the revelations from Kyubey regarding the history of Magical Girls, Madoka was deeply hurt and thus wanted to save these girls from despair.<br />
* [[Episode 12]]: Madoka {{spoiler|wished to erase all witches in every dimension, in every timeline, with her own hands. This created a paradox because Madoka would eventually erase her own witch self, while she must continue to exist and destroy other witches. This paradox resulted in Madoka escaping the bounds of reality and ascending to godhood. Since Madoka never existed as a human in this new reality, she is no longer remembered by anyone, except for Homura. It has been suggested that Sayaka also remembers her in the new timeline as well, as Sayaka confesses to her in Episode 12 that she has caused her best friend a lot of trouble; this could be interpreted as Sayaka having learnt of her unfortunate fate of turning into a witch in the other timelines, an outcome which clearly inflicted a great deal of emotional hurt on Madoka. }}<br />
<br />
==Speculation==<br />
* Some fans speculate that Madoka presumably made a wish for a large cake in one of the timelines, under the influence of Mami.<br />
** However, this is highly debatable. {{spoiler|Her original wish to save Amy would still apply if her circumstances to the event remains the same.}}<br />
* Theoretically there is also the danger that, should Madoka become extremely powerful and turn into a witch, her power may be enough to destroy not only Earth, but the entire universe.<br />
** INCREDIBLY unlikely. Kyubey's species is (if they can be trusted) trying to save the universe in the first place, not trying to destroy it. They wouldn't create something they can't take down.<br />
*** Then again, Kyubey remarked in the fourth timeline that he didn't know Madoka would turn out to be so powerful. While in this timeline he probably knows (and definitely doesn't care) that the witch form of Madoka could destroy the Earth, he may not know the full extent of her power.<br />
*** Madoka's wish includes a hidden if-then clause {{spoiler|to prevent her from ever becoming a witch}}. Because her wish is to {{spoiler|erase all witches before they're born with her own hands, she has the power to erase her own witch from existence}}. Which is what we see happen.<br />
* It is speculated that any wish Madoka ever made would be twisted because of the nature of the wish, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey suspects that as long as the motives are selfish, the wish will always be twisted because the wishers' desire would always fail to meet their expectation.<br />
** It is speculated that Madoka realized that as long as her thinking was selfish or incorrect, then her wish would also be twisted. It is suspect that Madoka contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in [[Episode 11]], without being caught into the snare of the wish's trap. {{spoiler|It is suspected that Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence.}}<br />
*** A Philosophical analysis tries to determine Madoka's motive, [[Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive|Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive]]<br />
*An argument can be said that Madoka has two ways to develop her courage. One is through Kyubey by magic (which is the easiest path); the other way is more difficult and hurtful, the painful life experience and lessons she receives through friends, family members, and from strangers. But the most influential character in Madoka's life would be her mother, her source of wisdom, courage, and strength.<br />
** The [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD "Memories of you"]], states that Madoka used to have low self-esteem and doubts about herself until she became a magical girl.<br />
* It is suspected that the series is attempting to show the journey of a little girl growing up from a simple life that is then thrown into the realm of magic. From her innocent eyes she perceives the magical world to be good, fantastic, and pleasing. But once Madoka experiences the dark nature of the magic world, she attempts to escape from the dark world of magic and at the same time evade the cynical world of reality. During her scene with her mother, Madoka attempts to move from the hopeless world of reality into the realm of adulthood. However, because Madoka still retains her hopes and dreams some would suggest that Madoka, rather than being regressed into a childish person, is growing into a hopeful adult that dreams for a better future.<br />
** This is considered incorrect. In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption—this is one of the most important metaphors in the anime (If we were never corrupted, we would never be "mature", our true images, when not corrupted, are images of naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion). When one becomes an adult, most likely she becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that she cannot resonate with other people and the power of the light side (hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity" - "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart - the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep within her.<br />
* I concur. In the anime, Kyubey refers to the magical girls as "puella" (in the title, which should suggest even greater significance). Puella, as he phrased it, referred to an immature girl. He also mentioned that these girls "grow up" into witches, implying that with maturity comes darkness and pain. The "adulthood" that is referenced in this series refers mostly to the dark side of humanity. <br />
** During the old world, "maturity" is essentially the corruption of a girl's adolescence. Kyubey's process is an attempt to uncover the darkness and selfish nature of the girls by amplifying it during the developing period into a witch. Is not an issue of purity as much as an issue of naivete and inexperience innocence; Kyubey corrupts these girls because they haven't been exposed or experienced the gritty reality of the world. Their lives as magical girls shatter their ideal views of a mahou shoujo, in the case of Kyoko as an example. Even Madoka became a Witch, perhaps as a statement of the flawed nature of humanity. But there was also a message of hope, Ultimate Madoka, a version of hope and sacrifice that defeated her Superwitch counterpart. This new entity born of the same metamorphosis process overcame the corrupting process of the system and developed into a much more mature Madoka. The reason for this new change is because Madoka made her wish that reflected her part as a sensible young adult, with the guidance of self reflection and wise counsel from others. The previous Madoka versions failed because they didn't reach their natural maturity when they made their wishes; they made their wishes with the mental view of an innocent child who didnt fully mature or understood the world. This new Madoka carries with her the hopes of magical girls, not just her own. However, as a responsible adult she must fade from the world and help many girls by taking their impurities with her. Madoka knows that she cannot abandon them, no matter how much she would miss her family and friends. This new Madoka has inhered a new sense of maturity and adult responsibility. The process of maturing into a better person requires Madoka to inherit the traits that comes with adulthood. It doesnt mean that Madoka becomes a better adult automatically nor a corrupt adult either. It just means that Madoka cannot grow into maturity without taking the elements of adulthood with her. In the series, adulthood can much as mean corruption as well as a new sense of guardianship. In this new sense, maturity and adulthood are not exclusive. One can become an adult without maturing (a witch), but one cannot mature without becoming an adult. One great example of Madoka's maturity is respecting the magical girls' wishes and dreams by not undoing their wishes or undoing their deaths. Another example is Madoka's acceptance of the need of a system to repair the damage done to the universe. Madoka's system is not perfect but she attempts to adjust it to make it more fair. Rather than radically alter the world to an "ideal version" (or paradise, as [[Kriemhild Gretchen]] tried), Madoka accepts the world as it is and tries to work within it. Madoka is in the process of growing into a fine woman, just like her mother Junko.<br />
*** Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the magical girls in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purest souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but of all people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts are blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the magical girls in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption(absorbing the greatest darkness) from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels; in the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults (people whose true heart are blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, as stated, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonates with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart (subconsciousness) is like (the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings alone are all that I live for, what will create my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
**** I would like to point out that there is a contradiction. If only the purity of Madoka's soul can save the girls. Then what does one make of the other girls? If Madoka is so pure and the reason she became a Witch was because of the corruption tainting her heart, then what changed in the end? If magical girls are not selfish, does that make them selfless? If so, then why couldn't they overcome their own corruption? One cannot be selfless and selfish at the same time, this in essence is a contradiction. To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective. Mami wanted to live but she regretted her choice because she didn't think of saving her family at the time. Sayaka wanted to heal Kyosuke because she felt sorry for him, but she also admits too late that she also wanted his love. This is why Kyubey knows that any wish will be corrupted, because it gets twisted by its own logic.<br />
***** The taint made them selfish, this means the taint blinds them from seeing hope, and thus they're only controlled by their grief and despair. Madoka has selfish desires, but they vanished so quickly inside Madoka's heart because they're powerless, until Madoka is tainted by the darkness of the witch she had defeated(corruption thus pass from one to the other, and it is non-decreasing, like entropy). It is not the girls are not selfish at all, it is that though they're basically selfless, and they're much more selfless than most people, they have a desire to protect their own hearts. When darkness blinds them, their dark side is magnified while their good side being blinded, thus they become witches. One can be selfless and selfish at the same time, we have both the nature of being selflessness and selfishness(desire to protect oneself), and when darkness blinds one, the two parts of us would be conflicting, and darkness may(or may not) win at the end. However, I do agree with this "To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective.". <br />
*****Unlike Sayaka, Madoka probably gets corrupted not because her wish gets twisted. It is possible her wish only got twisted after she became a witch, not before it, so perhaps it is not causing her transformation into a witch. As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected.<br />
******This is contradictory, all wishes get twisted according to Kyubey, because it never achieves the results one ever wants or expects. This is part of why girls gent transformed into Witches, it is part of the metamorphosis. This is already stated in [[Episode 11]]. Unless a counter-proof is provided, this is highly unlikely. In the case of Kyoko, while her wish was her innocent attempt to help her father, she failed to realized that she did not ask for her father's consent or opinion. Instead he felt he was used without his consent and that the magic spell was forced upon him.<br />
***This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor. This is, as it has been said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
****An argument can be said that its message is also about the hope of humanity, that even beyond the shadow of corruption there is a veil of hope for those who strife for it. Madoka, instead of turning her back to a corrupt world, decided she wanted to save it. If the world is corrupt, then it is assumed that is beyond saving. Instead, Madoka sacrificed herself to change the world into a better place. The new world is not perfect, it is still plagued with flaws and corruption, but it is also a little bit fair and merciful. <br />
***** When it is said that the world is hurrying to its ruin, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, it simply means that without people's resonance with hope, without any change, the world will surely destroys itself. But there is always hope, as what Madoka has shown to viewers, the power of hope can shatter all the darkness, and change the rule of universe, which is what will save humanity.<br />
***Madoka's maturity, as it has been stated, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. The words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".<br />
****This observation is essential to understanding the anime, it underlines that the story is of "coming of age" in an imperfect world. However, the series is not an attempt to attack adulthood, but illuminate the flaws of a cruel world that children are forced to grow into. The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers.<br />
*****It is suggested that the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood".<br />
<br />
==Magazine Article==<br />
*[[NewType_2011-07#Madoka_Character_Description|July's NewType article]]<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Kazumi Magica==<br />
[[File:Kazumi madoka.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
* Madoka's silhouette appeared once during Juubey's explanation about Magical Girl system. She also makes a single-panel cameo in the extra pages in the first volume of the collected edition.<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Oriko Magica==<br />
<blockquote>''"How can you be so calm, Homura-chan? Why? Why are you only saving me? You have such an incredible power, Homura-chan!!" <br \ > "If you're going to abandon everyone and run away, then you shouldn't save me...!"'' - Madoka, [[Oriko_Magica#Chapter_5:_That.27s_what_I.27m_here_for|Puella Magi Oriko Magica, Chapter 5]].</blockquote><br />
* Madoka appears in Chapter 3, asking [[Homura]] to go home with her, along with [[Sayaka]] and [[Hitomi]]. She is well protected by Homura and isn't aware of Magical Girl system.<br />
* She appears in Chapter 4 for one page. She is shown with her friends Homura, Sayaka and Hitomi going out for snacks after school.<br />
* In chapters 5 through 7, Mitakihara Junior High was attacked by [[Oriko]] and [[Kirika]]. Oriko spoke to the school through the school's broadcast system, and seemed to give a threatening look to Madoka as she claimed she defeat a creature of ultimate despair that will descend upon them. As a witch's barrier forms over the school, Madoka is separated from her friends attacked by familiars. Homura saves her in time, but Madoka demands to know why she does not help the other students. Homura knows she cannot save everyone, and wanted to try to save Madoka anyway. Madoka apologized as Homura puts her in a protective barrier so familiars cannot attack her and left to defeat the perpetrators. Madoka escaped from the protective barrier created by Homura, and tried to help Homura with Sayaka and Hitomi. {{spoiler|Madoka was Oriko's real target. The white magical girl wanted to kill her before she could contract and become a magical girl herself, and then the most powerful witch ever. She was killed by Oriko at the very end, when they were dying Oriko used a shard of Kirika's witch body to impale Madoka through the torso. Once Oriko died and the witch barrier was lifted, Hitomi and Sayaka mourning for the dead Madoka became visible.}}<br />
<br />
==Madoka in Madoka Magica Portable==<br />
{|class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" style="width:100%;"<br />
|-<br />
!style="text-align:left; padding:10px;"|Warning, this section contains spoilers on game endings.<br />
|-<br />
|style="padding:10px; background:#fff;"|<br />
<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Gallery==<br />
<br />
=== Official art ===<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Kaname Anime Design.jpg|Initial design<br />
File:Madoka Kaname Original Design.jpg|Original character design by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Madoka morning pajama.png|<br />
File:Sleepover.jpg|Madoka having a sleepover with friends<br />
File:Madoka bd1 4koma.jpg|Translated [[Ume Aoki|Ume]] 4koma from Madoka BD volume 1<br />
File:BD 4 Ume 4koma TL.jpg|Translated Ume 4koma from Madoka BD volume 4<br />
File:Autographed illustration umeaoki.JPG|Autographed illustration by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Ume madoka kyubey.jpg<br />
File:Ume aoki dojinshi madoka.jpg|[[Ume Aoki]]'s Dojinshi "RKGKMDK"<br />
File:Apricot +6.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup 2.jpg<br />
File:Madoka designs 1.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 2.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 3.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 4.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 5.jpg<br />
File:408.5.jpg|Animedia 2011-06<br />
File:Megami 04.2011 Madoka Pin-up.jpg|Megami magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:Nyantype 04.2011 Madoka Illustration.jpg|Nyantype magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:BD 1 Scan 8.jpg|from the Blu-Ray Volume 1 Booklet.<br />
File:MadokainKazumi.png|Madoka as drawn by Takashi Tensugi, the artist for [[Kazumi Magica]].<br />
File:MadokainOriko.png|Madoka as she appears in [[Oriko Magica]].<br />
File:Newtype 07 2011 p18 p19.jpg<br />
File:Madohomu prodsketch.jpg|Early production sketch of Madoka with Homura.<br />
File:PN 83.jpg<br />
File:Kisseymadokasketch.jpg|Goddess Madoka from the [[Puella Magi Production Notes|production notes]].<br />
File:Madoka magica anthology 1.jpg|Madoka Magica Anthology 1<br />
File:Ultimate Madoka settei information 6 official art BD 6.jpg|Ultimate Madoka by Ume Aoki.<br />
File:PN 09.jpg<br />
File:PN 56.jpg<br />
File:PN 57.jpg<br />
File:PN 58.jpg<br />
File:PN 59.jpg<br />
File:Animedia_2012-02_03.jpg|Animedia magazine, February 2012. Madoka's ring and fingernail mark as a magical girl are visible.<br />
File:618624.jpg<br />
File:20111112_3d97ad-2.jpg<br />
File:574169-1.jpg|Notice how Madoka's Soul Gem ring and fingernail marking are visible.<br />
File:Chibi_Madoka.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Screenshots ===<br />
==== Madoka as a regular girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Op_ep6_vs_ep5.jpg|Madoka x Madoka in the opening animation<br />
File:Madoka night clothes.jpg|Closeup of sleepy-eyed Madoka in the OP<br />
File:Madoka sleep on QB.gif|Sleepy Madoka<br />
File:Madoka is shy.gif|Madoka is shy<br />
File:Madoka family.gif|Madoka's family<br />
File:Madoka everyday life.gif|Madoka everyday life<br />
File:Madoka_ Sayaka_Hitomi.gif|Madoka & friends<br />
File:Madoka wakes up.gif|Madoka wakes up<br />
File:Madoka_Sayaka_Hitomi_playing.gif|Madoka Sayaka Hitomi playing<br />
File:Kaname-madoka.jpg|Madoka Kaname<br />
File:Screenshot madoka fascinating.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-loveletter.PNG|Madoka daydreaming about getting a love letter.<br />
File:Madoka-ponytail.jpg|Madoka with a ponytail<br />
File:Madoka crying.gif|Madoka crying<br />
File:Madoka received a gift.gif|Madoka received a gift <br />
File:Madoka is upset.gif|Madoka is upset<br />
File:Madoka_Sketch.jpg|A self-portrait. Drawing is one of Madoka's hobbies.<br />
File:Madoka hands.jpg|Closeup of Madoka's hands in [[Episode 10]] (TBS version), Timeline 1, when she is walking [[Homura]] to the nurse's office. She is known to be contracted by then. Note no Soul Gem ring or fingernail mark.<br />
File:Madoka tied up on the wheel of time.gif|Madoka tied up on the wheel of time<br />
File:Kaname_Madoka.png<br />
File:340798-madoka.jpg<br />
File:Ep6_madoka_long_hair.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000108.jpg<br />
File:464082.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000272-1.jpg<br />
File:Puella110_000043.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000292.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a Magical Girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-dodging.jpg|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka-dodging.gif|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka hug Homura.gif|Madoka hug Homura<br />
File:Madoka-mahou-shoujo.jpg|Madoka Kaname, Total Badass.<br />
File:Madoka hands 2.jpg|Madoka is purifying [[Homura]]'s Soul Gem in [[Episode 10]]'s Timeline 3. Again, note no fingernail mark.<br>[[:File:Madoka is purifying Homuras Soul Gem.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokamercy.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-soul-gem.jpg|Madoka's soul gem<br />
File:Madoka.png<br />
File:Tumblr_lk2ccuqv5G1qb7j0bo1_1280.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000091.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h50m38s0.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m14s99.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m45s157.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m48s189.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m54s246.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m59s46.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magika-10-mbs-x264-1920x1080-mp4-00001.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-10-large-06.jpg<br />
File:Madoka transformation_PSP.gif|Madoka's transformation in PSP GAME<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a witch ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-grief-seed.png|Madoka/Kriemhild's grief seed.<br />
File:Madoka-witch-first.jpg|Madoka's witch transformation in the second timeline.<br />
File:Kaname witch form power.jpg|Madoka's witch form.<br />
File:Madoka the Ultimate Witch.jpg|A closeup of the face of the ultimate witch form of Madoka born as a result of her wish in the story timeline.<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Fanart ===<br />
{{fanart}}<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Superfriends.png|Many experts believe something sort of like this happened after the final episode of Madoka Magica ended<br />
File:Madoka fuels the Universe.png|<br />
File:Aoki_ume_madoka_doujin_art_highrez.png|Fan coloring of Ume's work<br />
File:Madokami art front back.jpg|Madoka as the Goddess/concept of Hope<br />
File:Fan creation Madoka Soul Gem.jpg|Fan jewelry creation of Madoka's Soul Gem with a pink nebula inside (?) or a pink rose bud (?)<br />
File:MadoKami gundam.jpg|<br />
File:Scary madokami.jpg|You shall have no other gods before Me. That includes that wannabe Haruhi.<br />
File:MadoKami and Charlotte.jpg|Madoka rescues Charlotte.<br />
File:Madoka evolution magical girl.jpg|Madoka has evolved into MadoKami! <br />
File:It's tough to be a goddess.gif|No Mahou Shoujo Predator? But they are practically born into the hunting tradition!<br />
File:Madoka learning how to befriend.png|Madoka learning from the master.<br />
File:Meet the time traveler.jpg|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=36lSzUMBJnc Meet the Goddess]<br />
File:Namacha I Won't Allow That.png|MadoKami already abusing her Goddess powers, and we are fine with this.<br />
File:Madoprince homuprincess.jpg<br />
File:Chibimadokami.jpg|MadoKami died for our HHHNNNNNGGGGG~!<br />
File:Madoka pixel mugen.gif<br />
File:MadoKami all powerful fanart.jpg|''Thou Shall Have no Other Anime gods Before Me.''<br />
File:Madoka ;p fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka afro op fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka Ben-to.jpg|"And thus begins the "that character sounds like Madoka, imagine if she was the one to say that" adventures with Aoi Yuuki's characters.<br />
File:Madokami bow arrow aiming posture fanart.jpg<br />
File:AeFLl-1.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Miscellaneous ===<br />
<br />
==== Madoka's bow ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Bow.jpg|Rendition of Madoka's bow; it looks like a branch with a rose on its end<br />
File:Madoka-bow-firing.PNG|Madoka's bow in action<br />
File:Madoka-firing.jpg|You're gonna get befriended!<br>[[:File:Madoka shooting one arrow.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokas-arrow.jpg|A close-up of Madoka's arrow<br />
File:Madoka-multishot.jpg|Madoka using Multi-Shot<br>[[:File:Madoka multi shots.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:PN 13.jpg|Sketches from production notes.<br />
File:PN 14.jpg<br />
File:PN 22.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Aoi Yuki ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:BLT Aoi Yuki.jpg|Aoi Yuki. BLT magazine, 2011-6.<br />
File:Animedia 05.2011 Aoi Yuki DATA FILE.png|Aoi Yuki [[Animedia_2011-05|Data file]].<br />
File:Aoi yuki madoka.jpg<br />
File:Seiyuu aoi yuuki 2008 article picture.jpg<br />
File:Magical Girl Otona Anime 08.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Kriemhild Gretchen]], Madoka's witch form.<br />
* [[GetNavi 2011-12|GetNavi 2011-12]]<br />
* [[Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)|Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)]]<br />
* [[Animedia_2011-05#Aoi_Yuki_.28Madoka.29_Data_File|Aoi Yuki's Data file]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*{{pixiv_tag|鹿目まどか}}<br />
*{{booru_tag|danbooru|kaname_madoka}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Characters]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Madoka_Kaname&diff=45132Madoka Kaname2012-08-19T07:15:50Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div><blockquote>''"If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time."'' - Madoka Kaname, [[Episode 12]].</blockquote><br />
<br />
{{Infobox_character<br />
|name=Madoka Kaname<br />
|image=[[File:Madoka Chara Sheet.jpg|300px]]<br />
|jname=鹿目 まどか (Kaname Madoka) <br />
|voices=<br />
Japanese: [http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=creator&creatorid=1625 Aoi Yuuki]<br />English: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=95337 Christine Marie Cabanos]<br />Italian: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=70851 Joy Saltarelli]<br />
|age=14 <!-- via CM --><br />
|weapon=Bow<br />
}}<br />
'''Madoka Kaname''', the protagonist and title character, is a gentle and friendly 14 year old girl. Living an ordinary life, Madoka has a loving family and is surrounded by good friends. One day she had a dream of a mysterious girl who was fighting an ominous creature. The next day, [[Homura Akemi|Akemi Homura]], the girl from her dream, came to her class as a transfer student.<br />
<br />
==Official Info==<br />
* Character profile:<br />
** A good-natured and ordinary eighth-grader. She is the health coordinator in her class.<br />
** Even her bow-wielding magical girl form projects an air of kind friendliness. Her choker bears a pink gem.<br />
**[[Ume Aoki|Ms. Aoki]]’s Design Check!: I drew her keeping in mind that as the main character she needs to be average, but also an exceptionally good girl. Hence her puffy, high-placed twin tails. The design and color of her ribbons took a lot of work, but in the end calmed down to something simple.<br />
** Magical girl outfit: Madoka was drawn to be the very image of a magical girl. I added an almost fairy tale-ish hints, so hopefully female viewers will be charmed by her as well. (Aoki)<br />
** Full of tiny frills, with ribbons arranged at the neck, waist, and on the shoes. It’s perfectly “cute”, and seemingly unsuited for combat, but…<br />
** School uniform: Designed to convey the classy image of a private girls’ school, while not being -too- normal. Its distinguishing point is the small hole at the nape of the neck. (Aoki)<br />
** Of the heroines shown here, Madoka has the most childish body. Her legs are clad in pure, virginal white over-knee socks.<br />
* From the [[Pre-Broadcast November Advertisement|pre-broadcast November promotional video]]:<br />
** "A gentle 2nd year middle school girl who thinks of friends before herself."<br />
** "If anything could be granted with a magic…"<br />
** "What would you do?" <br />
* From the anime:<br />
** Madoka's mother, [[Junko Kaname|Junko]], commented that she has always been a good child and never lies.<br />
** Kyubey, Homura and Mami confirmed that Madoka has great magical potential.<br />
** Madoka is the only one without a transformation sequence as a magical girl within the Anime series.<br />
** Madoka became {{spoiler|the Embodiment of Hope in the finale.}}<br />
* A [[100 Questions|100 Question Survey]] has been published revealing details about Madoka such as her likes, dislikes, hobbies, and physical attributes.<br />
**Birthday: October 3<br />
**Blood Type: A<br />
**Height: Slightly less than 150cm (4'11"). Production Note shows a [[:Media:PN_10.jpg|height revision]] to 152cm (5'0").<br />
**Shoe size: 22 JP (Women's 5.5 US, Children's 4 US, 36 EU, 3 UK)<br />
* According to a [[NewType 2011-07]] interview with [[Gen Urobuchi]], the character Madoka is written based on Yuno from Hidamari Sketch (Aoki Ume's creation).<br />
** "To be honest, Madoka, the protagonist, is a pretty unusual character for my writing style."<br />
** "A foreign character that did not exist inside myself."<br />
** "I wrote the screenplay as if Yunocchi (from Hidamari Sketch) is to be put as the protagonist. I even had the preparation that seiyuu Asumi (Kana)-san would play her (lol)." <br />
** "I imagined all the other characters by starting from “Madoka = Yuno”."<br />
** "And every time I got Yunocchi to cry I got hated by the Hidamari fans more (lol)."<br />
<br />
==Trivia==<br />
* The characters of her last name mean "deer" (鹿) and "eye"(目), respectively.<br />
* Her last name can also be used as a first name.<br />
* Her last name sounds the same as (要), a word which means "keystone" or "hub".<br />
* Her first name is written in hiragana which has no particular meaning. However, when written in kanji, it can mean "round" or "tranquil" (円).<br />
* Madoka owns many stuffed animals in [[Madoka's House#Madoka's Room|her room]].<br />
* Madoka and [[Mami]] are the only Magical Girls known who are never seen having a mark on any of their fingernails. [[Homura]], [[Kyoko]] and [[Sayaka]] all have marks on their left middle fingers, matching the shape of the emblem of their respective Soul Gem.<br />
* Madoka is never seen with her Soul Gem in a ring form.<br />
* Madoka loves cats like Homura.<br />
* Aoi Yuuki (Madoka's VA) really likes [[Kyoko]] and she claimed that Kyoko is her wife. You can hear her confession in the [[:Talk:Drama_CD_2#Info_and_DL|Magical Girls Tea Party]] bonus CD.<br />
** In the commentary for [[Episode 5]] Aoi Yuki declares her love for Kyoko and desires to marry her. Ai Nonaka questions her choice and informs her all she ever does is eat. Aoi Yuki is ok with this and declares she would just adjust.<br />
*** In same comentary Chiwa Saitou sounds annoyed, some suggested perhaps she is jealous. But the question is, jealous of whom?<br />
** Aoi Yuuki [[:file:Going gaga for kyouko.jpg|goes even more gaga]] for Kyoko in the audio commentaries for [[Episode 7]]: "The one I love, it's Kyoko-tan." "Kyoko-tan is the absolute best!" "it's like she isn't trying to be cool, but she's still REALLY cool." <br />
**In the [[Talk:Key_Animation_Note|"C81 Aniplex Madoka Special Talk CD"]], not even two minutes has passed and Aoi Yuki's already fangirling over Kyoko-tan~ <br />
*Aoi Yuuki (Madoka) is trying to form [[:file:Aoi yuuki yuri harem.jpg|her own harem]]<br />
*Urobuchi in his audio commentary on BD/DVD 3 explains that he felt like Aoi Yuki was born for the role of Madoka. What he means is that she doesn't force herself into the role of becoming her character and she leaves the impression of being a natural airhead, but in a good way.<br />
*Madoka's last form is known as [[Blu-Ray_Volume_6_Booklet#Original_Design_Artworks_Six|Ultimate Madoka]]. Prior to this information, fans called her form "MadoKami", Godoka, or Goddess Madoka.<br />
**In one of the original artwork designs, it is noted that Madoka is holding a [[wikipedia:Shinai|shinai sword]] or a bow.<br />
*Madoka is a [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki Grade A Zettai Ryouiki] in her school uniform<br />
*Official information indicates that Madoka was born in October 3, making her a [[wikipedia:Libra_(astrology)|Libra]].<br />
*Wehihihi ♥ "ウェヒヒヒヒ" is an onomatopoeia for Madoka's trademark laughter. You can hear it [http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14436710 here.]<br />
<br />
==Observation==<br />
<br />
===Characterization===<br />
<blockquote>''"Madoka, you have grown to be a good girl. You don't lie and you dont do anything bad. You always try to do what is right. You are a wonderful child."'' - Junko, [[Episode 6]].</blockquote> <br />
<br />
* Madoka is a nice kid, somewhat naive due to being a teenager.<br />
** Friendly and gentle toward Homura, a new transfer student {{spoiler|no matter which timeline}}.<br />
** Wanted to be helpful to other people.<br />
** Admired Mami and was severely affected by her.{{spoiler| death}}<br />
** Constantly worried about Sayaka's safety and willing to face danger for her friend.<br />
*Madoka always tries to call other main characters their first names with postfix (-chan or -san) if possible. It may indicate that she is eager to get close to others. The only exception is Kamijou. Madoka might think it is not a good idea to get too close to him since she believes he could potentially become Sayaka's boyfriend. <br />
**This is confirmed in the PSP, when Madoka finally calls him by his first name, after Sayaka made advances with him in one of the endings.<br />
* A level-headed person, capable of making decisions on her own.<br />
** Didn't believe Homura is "totally evil" as she was told, and tried to understand her better based on what she observed.<br />
** Didn't wish to {{spoiler|revive Mami, who is just a new acquaintance}}, but was ready to sacrifice herself for her best friend [[Sayaka]]. This added to the realistic aspect of Madoka's character.<br />
** Tried to prevent Sayaka and Kyoko's unnecessary fight, and pursued Sayaka to solve conflicts by negotiation instead of violence.<br />
** Looked for advise from her mother without mentioning magic.<br />
** Can answer immediately to [[Kyubey]] that {{spoiler|even if the Incubators have good reason to collect energy, they are still humanity's enemy.}} This is demonstrates her understanding of humanity.<br />
** Kept calm toward Homura's revelation and reminded Sayaka not to stir conflicts between teammates (TL3).<br />
** Acted fast to take out {{spoiler|Mami}} and saved Homura (TL3).<br />
** {{spoiler|Used the last grief seed to save Homura because she wanted the latter to prevent a tragic outcome (TL3).}}<br />
** Thought of a wish that would bring the most benefits to other people based on the info she had.<br />
* The difference between the character of Madoka and the character of Sayaka: While both are good-hearted girls, Madoka never judges based on first impressions, never makes rash assumptions, and has the mentality to deal with truth. <br />
* Madoka's wishes always stemmed from her kindness.<br />
** From what we know until now, she contracted with Kyubey in order to {{spoiler|save a cat whom had just died in front of her (TL1), save Homura from Walpurgisnacht (TL4), and release Magical Girls in the past and future from their cursed fate of becoming witches (Episode 12)}}.<br />
** Asked to accompany Sayaka on her witch hunt just so that if the latter was ever in danger, she could make a wish and rescue Sayaka. She nearly made this wish in [[Episode 8]].<br />
** Madoka's kindness is one of the major reasons why Homura is so drawn to her. From [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD 1 ''"Memories of you"'']], {{spoiler|the reason Madoka became a Magical Girl in the first timeline is to save a cat which had been run over by a car. Madoka also treated Homura very nicely from the beginning, who at that time was being bullied. We also learn that whenever Madoka made a contract and become a Magical Girl, she would act much more confident since it gave her a sense of purpose. Homura's interventions during the course of the anime prevented this change.}}<br />
*According with Urobuchi, he made Junko a [[Blu-Ray_Volume_4_Booklet#Gen_Urobuchi_.28Screenplay_for_All_Episodes.29_.26_Akiyuki_Shinbo_.28Director.29_Conversation_Part_1|strong woman]] so Madoka would want to emulate her strength and courage.<br />
**It is possible that the reason Madoka feels so useless prior to becoming a magical girl, is that she consciously fails to measure to her own mother.<br />
***It is suggested that the reason Madoka is so miserable is that she wishes for power in order to be selfless so that she won't be miserable any more. Kyubey uses this to manipulate Madoka's thinking into making her wish through her guilt. He tries to manipulate Madoka into a belief that she can be free from her misery by making a selfless wish.<br />
***Without the wish and the life experience as a magical girl, Madoka's character never grows and develops into a courageous heroine. However, her life experience as a scared teenage girl, constantly crying and mourning the death of so many, always wanting to do what's right yet feeling powerless, the failure of attempting to save friends and strangers, and the sorrow she feels for the victims of innocent girls {{spoiler|deceived by a calculating cold alien allows Madoka to finally develops the courage to confront her fears to save Homura and the world, instead of succumbing to despair and running away, Madoka finally grows up. The scene with her mother in Episode 11 leaves that impression.}}<br />
*In [[Episode 6]], Junko and Madoka had a conversation on how difficult it is to do the right thing, even when no one is in the wrong (per say). Junko's advice was for Madoka to be on the wrong against her friend to solve the problem, even if it means that her friend would hate her for it. In [[Episode 11]] Junko confronts Madoka to stop her from getting into the danger of the storm, Madoka reminds her mother that she is a good girl and never does anything wrong but she tells her she needs to do this, a throwback to their earlier conversation. Madoka knows that what she is doing will worry her family, but she also knows that she must disobey her mother to save her family and her town. This conversation between Junko and Madoka earns her mother's trust.<br />
* In the [[Drama CD 2|Drama CD ''"Sunny Day Life"'']] Madoka ''used'' to get good grades, but her duties as a magical girl are interfering with her studies.<br />
** For what is worth, Madoka's grades are still better than Sayaka's.<br />
<br />
===Important Plot Points===<br />
* [[Episode 8]]: Kyubey claimed Madoka's power to be godlike, to the point where she could even change the laws of the universe if she wished for it.<br />
* [[Episode 10]]: {{spoiler|In the first timeline, Madoka along with Mami saved Homura from a familiar. She died during the fight with Walpurgis Night. In the second timeline, Madoka turned into a witch for the first time, revealing to Homura the link between Magical Girls and Witches. In a later timeline, Madoka killed Mami in order to save Homura, as Mami lost control of herself and had just killed Kyoko. This is also the timeline in which Madoka asked Homura to go back in time to prevent her from becoming a Magical Girl.}} Madoka's power increased exponentially {{spoiler|after every timeline. The first time showed she was an ordinary magical girl. In later timeline she had enough power to defeat Walpurgis in one shot, was capable of destroying the entire planet within 10 days in her witch form, and satisfied all Kyubey's energy quotas of the Earth.}} <br />
* [[Episode 11]]: {{spoiler|Homura's time repeats had linked multiple parallel universes together with Madoka's fate as their center. With every reset, Homura would force yet another parallel universe to be centered around Madoka. The accumulated karma is the reason why Madoka's potential power is so great.}} Hearing the revelations from Kyubey regarding the history of Magical Girls, Madoka was deeply hurt and thus wanted to save these girls from despair.<br />
* [[Episode 12]]: Madoka {{spoiler|wished to erase all witches in every dimension, in every timeline, with her own hands. This created a paradox because Madoka would eventually erase her own witch self, while she must continue to exist and destroy other witches. This paradox resulted in Madoka escaping the bounds of reality and ascending to godhood. Since Madoka never existed as a human in this new reality, she is no longer remembered by anyone, except for Homura. It has been suggested that Sayaka also remembers her in the new timeline as well, as Sayaka confesses to her in Episode 12 that she has caused her best friend a lot of trouble; this could be interpreted as Sayaka having learnt of her unfortunate fate of turning into a witch in the other timelines, an outcome which clearly inflicted a great deal of emotional hurt on Madoka. }}<br />
<br />
==Speculation==<br />
* Some fans speculate that Madoka presumably made a wish for a large cake in one of the timelines, under the influence of Mami.<br />
** However, this is highly debatable. {{spoiler|Her original wish to save Amy would still apply if her circumstances to the event remains the same.}}<br />
* Theoretically there is also the danger that, should Madoka become extremely powerful and turn into a witch, her power may be enough to destroy not only Earth, but the entire universe.<br />
** INCREDIBLY unlikely. Kyubey's species is (if they can be trusted) trying to save the universe in the first place, not trying to destroy it. They wouldn't create something they can't take down.<br />
*** Then again, Kyubey remarked in the fourth timeline that he didn't know Madoka would turn out to be so powerful. While in this timeline he probably knows (and definitely doesn't care) that the witch form of Madoka could destroy the Earth, he may not know the full extent of her power.<br />
*** Madoka's wish includes a hidden if-then clause {{spoiler|to prevent her from ever becoming a witch}}. Because her wish is to {{spoiler|erase all witches before they're born with her own hands, she has the power to erase her own witch from existence}}. Which is what we see happen.<br />
* It is speculated that any wish Madoka ever made would be twisted because of the nature of the wish, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey suspects that as long as the motives are selfish, the wish will always be twisted because the wishers' desire would always fail to meet their expectation.<br />
** It is speculated that Madoka realized that as long as her thinking was selfish or incorrect, then her wish would also be twisted. It is suspect that Madoka contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in [[Episode 11]], without being caught into the snare of the wish's trap. {{spoiler|It is suspected that Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence.}}<br />
*** A Philosophical analysis tries to determine Madoka's motive, [[Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive|Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive]]<br />
*An argument can be said that Madoka has two ways to develop her courage. One is through Kyubey by magic (which is the easiest path); the other way is more difficult and hurtful, the painful life experience and lessons she receives through friends, family members, and from strangers. But the most influential character in Madoka's life would be her mother, her source of wisdom, courage, and strength.<br />
** The [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD "Memories of you"]], states that Madoka used to have low self-esteem and doubts about herself until she became a magical girl.<br />
* It is suspected that the series is attempting to show the journey of a little girl growing up from a simple life that is then thrown into the realm of magic. From her innocent eyes she perceives the magical world to be good, fantastic, and pleasing. But once Madoka experiences the dark nature of the magic world, she attempts to escape from the dark world of magic and at the same time evade the cynical world of reality. During her scene with her mother, Madoka attempts to move from the hopeless world of reality into the realm of adulthood. However, because Madoka still retains her hopes and dreams some would suggest that Madoka, rather than being regressed into a childish person, is growing into a hopeful adult that dreams for a better future.<br />
** This is considered incorrect. In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption—this is one of the most important metaphors in the anime (If we were never corrupted, we would never be "mature", our true images, when not corrupted, are images of naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion). When one becomes an adult, most likely she becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that she cannot resonate with other people and the power of the light side (hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity" - "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart - the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep within her.<br />
* I concur. In the anime, Kyubey refers to the magical girls as "puella" (in the title, which should suggest even greater significance). Puella, as he phrased it, referred to an immature girl. He also mentioned that these girls "grow up" into witches, implying that with maturity comes darkness and pain. The "adulthood" that is referenced in this series refers mostly to the dark side of humanity. <br />
** During the old world, "maturity" is essentially the corruption of a girl's adolescence. Kyubey's process is an attempt to uncover the darkness and selfish nature of the girls by amplifying it during the developing period into a witch. Is not an issue of purity as much as an issue of naivete and inexperience innocence; Kyubey corrupts these girls because they haven't been exposed or experienced the gritty reality of the world. Their lives as magical girls shatter their ideal views of a mahou shoujo, in the case of Kyoko as an example. Even Madoka became a Witch, perhaps as a statement of the flawed nature of humanity. But there was also a message of hope, Ultimate Madoka, a version of hope and sacrifice that defeated her Superwitch counterpart. This new entity born of the same metamorphosis process overcame the corrupting process of the system and developed into a much more mature Madoka. The reason for this new change is because Madoka made her wish that reflected her part as a sensible young adult, with the guidance of self reflection and wise counsel from others. The previous Madoka versions failed because they didn't reach their natural maturity when they made their wishes; they made their wishes with the mental view of an innocent child who didnt fully mature or understood the world. This new Madoka carries with her the hopes of magical girls, not just her own. However, as a responsible adult she must fade from the world and help many girls by taking their impurities with her. Madoka knows that she cannot abandon them, no matter how much she would miss her family and friends. This new Madoka has inhered a new sense of maturity and adult responsibility. The process of maturing into a better person requires Madoka to inherit the traits that comes with adulthood. It doesnt mean that Madoka becomes a better adult automatically nor a corrupt adult either. It just means that Madoka cannot grow into maturity without taking the elements of adulthood with her. In the series, adulthood can much as mean corruption as well as a new sense of guardianship. In this new sense, maturity and adulthood are not exclusive. One can become an adult without maturing (a witch), but one cannot mature without becoming an adult. One great example of Madoka's maturity is respecting the magical girls' wishes and dreams by not undoing their wishes or undoing their deaths. Another example is Madoka's acceptance of the need of a system to repair the damage done to the universe. Madoka's system is not perfect but she attempts to adjust it to make it more fair. Rather than radically alter the world to an "ideal version" (or paradise, as [[Kriemhild Gretchen]] tried), Madoka accepts the world as it is and tries to work within it. Madoka is in the process of growing into a fine woman, just like her mother Junko.<br />
*** Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the magical girls in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purest souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but of all people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts are blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the magical girls in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption(absorbing the greatest darkness) from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels; in the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults (people whose true heart are blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, as stated, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonates with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart (subconsciousness) is like (the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings alone are all that I live for, what will create my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
**** I would like to point out that there is a contradiction. If only the purity of Madoka's soul can save the girls. Then what does one make of the other girls? If Madoka is so pure and the reason she became a Witch was because of the corruption tainting her heart, then what changed in the end? If magical girls are not selfish, does that make them selfless? If so, then why couldn't they overcome their own corruption? One cannot be selfless and selfish at the same time, this in essence is a contradiction. To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective. Mami wanted to live but she regretted her choice because she didn't think of saving her family at the time. Sayaka wanted to heal Kyosuke because she felt sorry for him, but she also admits too late that she also wanted his love. This is why Kyubey knows that any wish will be corrupted, because it gets twisted by its own logic.<br />
***** The taint made them selfish, this means the taint blinds them from seeing hope, and thus they're only controlled by their grief and despair. Madoka has selfish desires, but they vanished so quickly inside Madoka's heart because they're powerless, until Madoka is tainted by the darkness of the witch she had defeated(corruption thus pass from one to the other, and it conserves). It is not the girls are not selfish at all, it is that though they're basically selfless, and they're much more selfless than most people, they have a desire to protect their own hearts. When darkness blinds them, their dark side is magnified while their good side being blinded, thus they become witches. One can be selfless and selfish at the same time, we have both the nature of being selflessness and selfishness(desire to protect oneself), and when darkness blinds one, the two parts of us would be conflicting, and darkness may(or may not) win at the end. However, I do agree with this "To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective.". <br />
*****Unlike Sayaka, Madoka probably gets corrupted not because her wish gets twisted. It is possible her wish only got twisted after she became a witch, not before it, so perhaps it is not causing her transformation into a witch. As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected.<br />
******This is contradictory, all wishes get twisted according to Kyubey, because it never achieves the results one ever wants or expects. This is part of why girls gent transformed into Witches, it is part of the metamorphosis. This is already stated in [[Episode 11]]. Unless a counter-proof is provided, this is highly unlikely. In the case of Kyoko, while her wish was her innocent attempt to help her father, she failed to realized that she did not ask for her father's consent or opinion. Instead he felt he was used without his consent and that the magic spell was forced upon him.<br />
***This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor. This is, as it has been said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
****An argument can be said that its message is also about the hope of humanity, that even beyond the shadow of corruption there is a veil of hope for those who strife for it. Madoka, instead of turning her back to a corrupt world, decided she wanted to save it. If the world is corrupt, then it is assumed that is beyond saving. Instead, Madoka sacrificed herself to change the world into a better place. The new world is not perfect, it is still plagued with flaws and corruption, but it is also a little bit fair and merciful. <br />
***** When it is said that the world is hurrying to its ruin, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, it simply means that without people's resonance with hope, without any change, the world will surely destroys itself. But there is always hope, as what Madoka has shown to viewers, the power of hope can shatter all the darkness, and change the rule of universe, which is what will save humanity.<br />
***Madoka's maturity, as it has been stated, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. The words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".<br />
****This observation is essential to understanding the anime, it underlines that the story is of "coming of age" in an imperfect world. However, the series is not an attempt to attack adulthood, but illuminate the flaws of a cruel world that children are forced to grow into. The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers.<br />
*****It is suggested that the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood".<br />
<br />
==Magazine Article==<br />
*[[NewType_2011-07#Madoka_Character_Description|July's NewType article]]<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Kazumi Magica==<br />
[[File:Kazumi madoka.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
* Madoka's silhouette appeared once during Juubey's explanation about Magical Girl system. She also makes a single-panel cameo in the extra pages in the first volume of the collected edition.<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Oriko Magica==<br />
<blockquote>''"How can you be so calm, Homura-chan? Why? Why are you only saving me? You have such an incredible power, Homura-chan!!" <br \ > "If you're going to abandon everyone and run away, then you shouldn't save me...!"'' - Madoka, [[Oriko_Magica#Chapter_5:_That.27s_what_I.27m_here_for|Puella Magi Oriko Magica, Chapter 5]].</blockquote><br />
* Madoka appears in Chapter 3, asking [[Homura]] to go home with her, along with [[Sayaka]] and [[Hitomi]]. She is well protected by Homura and isn't aware of Magical Girl system.<br />
* She appears in Chapter 4 for one page. She is shown with her friends Homura, Sayaka and Hitomi going out for snacks after school.<br />
* In chapters 5 through 7, Mitakihara Junior High was attacked by [[Oriko]] and [[Kirika]]. Oriko spoke to the school through the school's broadcast system, and seemed to give a threatening look to Madoka as she claimed she defeat a creature of ultimate despair that will descend upon them. As a witch's barrier forms over the school, Madoka is separated from her friends attacked by familiars. Homura saves her in time, but Madoka demands to know why she does not help the other students. Homura knows she cannot save everyone, and wanted to try to save Madoka anyway. Madoka apologized as Homura puts her in a protective barrier so familiars cannot attack her and left to defeat the perpetrators. Madoka escaped from the protective barrier created by Homura, and tried to help Homura with Sayaka and Hitomi. {{spoiler|Madoka was Oriko's real target. The white magical girl wanted to kill her before she could contract and become a magical girl herself, and then the most powerful witch ever. She was killed by Oriko at the very end, when they were dying Oriko used a shard of Kirika's witch body to impale Madoka through the torso. Once Oriko died and the witch barrier was lifted, Hitomi and Sayaka mourning for the dead Madoka became visible.}}<br />
<br />
==Madoka in Madoka Magica Portable==<br />
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!style="text-align:left; padding:10px;"|Warning, this section contains spoilers on game endings.<br />
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<br />
==Gallery==<br />
<br />
=== Official art ===<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Kaname Anime Design.jpg|Initial design<br />
File:Madoka Kaname Original Design.jpg|Original character design by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Madoka morning pajama.png|<br />
File:Sleepover.jpg|Madoka having a sleepover with friends<br />
File:Madoka bd1 4koma.jpg|Translated [[Ume Aoki|Ume]] 4koma from Madoka BD volume 1<br />
File:BD 4 Ume 4koma TL.jpg|Translated Ume 4koma from Madoka BD volume 4<br />
File:Autographed illustration umeaoki.JPG|Autographed illustration by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Ume madoka kyubey.jpg<br />
File:Ume aoki dojinshi madoka.jpg|[[Ume Aoki]]'s Dojinshi "RKGKMDK"<br />
File:Apricot +6.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup 2.jpg<br />
File:Madoka designs 1.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 2.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 3.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 4.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 5.jpg<br />
File:408.5.jpg|Animedia 2011-06<br />
File:Megami 04.2011 Madoka Pin-up.jpg|Megami magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:Nyantype 04.2011 Madoka Illustration.jpg|Nyantype magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:BD 1 Scan 8.jpg|from the Blu-Ray Volume 1 Booklet.<br />
File:MadokainKazumi.png|Madoka as drawn by Takashi Tensugi, the artist for [[Kazumi Magica]].<br />
File:MadokainOriko.png|Madoka as she appears in [[Oriko Magica]].<br />
File:Newtype 07 2011 p18 p19.jpg<br />
File:Madohomu prodsketch.jpg|Early production sketch of Madoka with Homura.<br />
File:PN 83.jpg<br />
File:Kisseymadokasketch.jpg|Goddess Madoka from the [[Puella Magi Production Notes|production notes]].<br />
File:Madoka magica anthology 1.jpg|Madoka Magica Anthology 1<br />
File:Ultimate Madoka settei information 6 official art BD 6.jpg|Ultimate Madoka by Ume Aoki.<br />
File:PN 09.jpg<br />
File:PN 56.jpg<br />
File:PN 57.jpg<br />
File:PN 58.jpg<br />
File:PN 59.jpg<br />
File:Animedia_2012-02_03.jpg|Animedia magazine, February 2012. Madoka's ring and fingernail mark as a magical girl are visible.<br />
File:618624.jpg<br />
File:20111112_3d97ad-2.jpg<br />
File:574169-1.jpg|Notice how Madoka's Soul Gem ring and fingernail marking are visible.<br />
File:Chibi_Madoka.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Screenshots ===<br />
==== Madoka as a regular girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Op_ep6_vs_ep5.jpg|Madoka x Madoka in the opening animation<br />
File:Madoka night clothes.jpg|Closeup of sleepy-eyed Madoka in the OP<br />
File:Madoka sleep on QB.gif|Sleepy Madoka<br />
File:Madoka is shy.gif|Madoka is shy<br />
File:Madoka family.gif|Madoka's family<br />
File:Madoka everyday life.gif|Madoka everyday life<br />
File:Madoka_ Sayaka_Hitomi.gif|Madoka & friends<br />
File:Madoka wakes up.gif|Madoka wakes up<br />
File:Madoka_Sayaka_Hitomi_playing.gif|Madoka Sayaka Hitomi playing<br />
File:Kaname-madoka.jpg|Madoka Kaname<br />
File:Screenshot madoka fascinating.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-loveletter.PNG|Madoka daydreaming about getting a love letter.<br />
File:Madoka-ponytail.jpg|Madoka with a ponytail<br />
File:Madoka crying.gif|Madoka crying<br />
File:Madoka received a gift.gif|Madoka received a gift <br />
File:Madoka is upset.gif|Madoka is upset<br />
File:Madoka_Sketch.jpg|A self-portrait. Drawing is one of Madoka's hobbies.<br />
File:Madoka hands.jpg|Closeup of Madoka's hands in [[Episode 10]] (TBS version), Timeline 1, when she is walking [[Homura]] to the nurse's office. She is known to be contracted by then. Note no Soul Gem ring or fingernail mark.<br />
File:Madoka tied up on the wheel of time.gif|Madoka tied up on the wheel of time<br />
File:Kaname_Madoka.png<br />
File:340798-madoka.jpg<br />
File:Ep6_madoka_long_hair.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000108.jpg<br />
File:464082.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000272-1.jpg<br />
File:Puella110_000043.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000292.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a Magical Girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-dodging.jpg|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka-dodging.gif|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka hug Homura.gif|Madoka hug Homura<br />
File:Madoka-mahou-shoujo.jpg|Madoka Kaname, Total Badass.<br />
File:Madoka hands 2.jpg|Madoka is purifying [[Homura]]'s Soul Gem in [[Episode 10]]'s Timeline 3. Again, note no fingernail mark.<br>[[:File:Madoka is purifying Homuras Soul Gem.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokamercy.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-soul-gem.jpg|Madoka's soul gem<br />
File:Madoka.png<br />
File:Tumblr_lk2ccuqv5G1qb7j0bo1_1280.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000091.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h50m38s0.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m14s99.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m45s157.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m48s189.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m54s246.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m59s46.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magika-10-mbs-x264-1920x1080-mp4-00001.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-10-large-06.jpg<br />
File:Madoka transformation_PSP.gif|Madoka's transformation in PSP GAME<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a witch ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-grief-seed.png|Madoka/Kriemhild's grief seed.<br />
File:Madoka-witch-first.jpg|Madoka's witch transformation in the second timeline.<br />
File:Kaname witch form power.jpg|Madoka's witch form.<br />
File:Madoka the Ultimate Witch.jpg|A closeup of the face of the ultimate witch form of Madoka born as a result of her wish in the story timeline.<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Fanart ===<br />
{{fanart}}<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Superfriends.png|Many experts believe something sort of like this happened after the final episode of Madoka Magica ended<br />
File:Madoka fuels the Universe.png|<br />
File:Aoki_ume_madoka_doujin_art_highrez.png|Fan coloring of Ume's work<br />
File:Madokami art front back.jpg|Madoka as the Goddess/concept of Hope<br />
File:Fan creation Madoka Soul Gem.jpg|Fan jewelry creation of Madoka's Soul Gem with a pink nebula inside (?) or a pink rose bud (?)<br />
File:MadoKami gundam.jpg|<br />
File:Scary madokami.jpg|You shall have no other gods before Me. That includes that wannabe Haruhi.<br />
File:MadoKami and Charlotte.jpg|Madoka rescues Charlotte.<br />
File:Madoka evolution magical girl.jpg|Madoka has evolved into MadoKami! <br />
File:It's tough to be a goddess.gif|No Mahou Shoujo Predator? But they are practically born into the hunting tradition!<br />
File:Madoka learning how to befriend.png|Madoka learning from the master.<br />
File:Meet the time traveler.jpg|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=36lSzUMBJnc Meet the Goddess]<br />
File:Namacha I Won't Allow That.png|MadoKami already abusing her Goddess powers, and we are fine with this.<br />
File:Madoprince homuprincess.jpg<br />
File:Chibimadokami.jpg|MadoKami died for our HHHNNNNNGGGGG~!<br />
File:Madoka pixel mugen.gif<br />
File:MadoKami all powerful fanart.jpg|''Thou Shall Have no Other Anime gods Before Me.''<br />
File:Madoka ;p fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka afro op fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka Ben-to.jpg|"And thus begins the "that character sounds like Madoka, imagine if she was the one to say that" adventures with Aoi Yuuki's characters.<br />
File:Madokami bow arrow aiming posture fanart.jpg<br />
File:AeFLl-1.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Miscellaneous ===<br />
<br />
==== Madoka's bow ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Bow.jpg|Rendition of Madoka's bow; it looks like a branch with a rose on its end<br />
File:Madoka-bow-firing.PNG|Madoka's bow in action<br />
File:Madoka-firing.jpg|You're gonna get befriended!<br>[[:File:Madoka shooting one arrow.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokas-arrow.jpg|A close-up of Madoka's arrow<br />
File:Madoka-multishot.jpg|Madoka using Multi-Shot<br>[[:File:Madoka multi shots.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:PN 13.jpg|Sketches from production notes.<br />
File:PN 14.jpg<br />
File:PN 22.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Aoi Yuki ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:BLT Aoi Yuki.jpg|Aoi Yuki. BLT magazine, 2011-6.<br />
File:Animedia 05.2011 Aoi Yuki DATA FILE.png|Aoi Yuki [[Animedia_2011-05|Data file]].<br />
File:Aoi yuki madoka.jpg<br />
File:Seiyuu aoi yuuki 2008 article picture.jpg<br />
File:Magical Girl Otona Anime 08.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Kriemhild Gretchen]], Madoka's witch form.<br />
* [[GetNavi 2011-12|GetNavi 2011-12]]<br />
* [[Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)|Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)]]<br />
* [[Animedia_2011-05#Aoi_Yuki_.28Madoka.29_Data_File|Aoi Yuki's Data file]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*{{pixiv_tag|鹿目まどか}}<br />
*{{booru_tag|danbooru|kaname_madoka}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Characters]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Madoka_Kaname&diff=45131Madoka Kaname2012-08-19T07:11:46Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div><blockquote>''"If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time."'' - Madoka Kaname, [[Episode 12]].</blockquote><br />
<br />
{{Infobox_character<br />
|name=Madoka Kaname<br />
|image=[[File:Madoka Chara Sheet.jpg|300px]]<br />
|jname=鹿目 まどか (Kaname Madoka) <br />
|voices=<br />
Japanese: [http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=creator&creatorid=1625 Aoi Yuuki]<br />English: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=95337 Christine Marie Cabanos]<br />Italian: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=70851 Joy Saltarelli]<br />
|age=14 <!-- via CM --><br />
|weapon=Bow<br />
}}<br />
'''Madoka Kaname''', the protagonist and title character, is a gentle and friendly 14 year old girl. Living an ordinary life, Madoka has a loving family and is surrounded by good friends. One day she had a dream of a mysterious girl who was fighting an ominous creature. The next day, [[Homura Akemi|Akemi Homura]], the girl from her dream, came to her class as a transfer student.<br />
<br />
==Official Info==<br />
* Character profile:<br />
** A good-natured and ordinary eighth-grader. She is the health coordinator in her class.<br />
** Even her bow-wielding magical girl form projects an air of kind friendliness. Her choker bears a pink gem.<br />
**[[Ume Aoki|Ms. Aoki]]’s Design Check!: I drew her keeping in mind that as the main character she needs to be average, but also an exceptionally good girl. Hence her puffy, high-placed twin tails. The design and color of her ribbons took a lot of work, but in the end calmed down to something simple.<br />
** Magical girl outfit: Madoka was drawn to be the very image of a magical girl. I added an almost fairy tale-ish hints, so hopefully female viewers will be charmed by her as well. (Aoki)<br />
** Full of tiny frills, with ribbons arranged at the neck, waist, and on the shoes. It’s perfectly “cute”, and seemingly unsuited for combat, but…<br />
** School uniform: Designed to convey the classy image of a private girls’ school, while not being -too- normal. Its distinguishing point is the small hole at the nape of the neck. (Aoki)<br />
** Of the heroines shown here, Madoka has the most childish body. Her legs are clad in pure, virginal white over-knee socks.<br />
* From the [[Pre-Broadcast November Advertisement|pre-broadcast November promotional video]]:<br />
** "A gentle 2nd year middle school girl who thinks of friends before herself."<br />
** "If anything could be granted with a magic…"<br />
** "What would you do?" <br />
* From the anime:<br />
** Madoka's mother, [[Junko Kaname|Junko]], commented that she has always been a good child and never lies.<br />
** Kyubey, Homura and Mami confirmed that Madoka has great magical potential.<br />
** Madoka is the only one without a transformation sequence as a magical girl within the Anime series.<br />
** Madoka became {{spoiler|the Embodiment of Hope in the finale.}}<br />
* A [[100 Questions|100 Question Survey]] has been published revealing details about Madoka such as her likes, dislikes, hobbies, and physical attributes.<br />
**Birthday: October 3<br />
**Blood Type: A<br />
**Height: Slightly less than 150cm (4'11"). Production Note shows a [[:Media:PN_10.jpg|height revision]] to 152cm (5'0").<br />
**Shoe size: 22 JP (Women's 5.5 US, Children's 4 US, 36 EU, 3 UK)<br />
* According to a [[NewType 2011-07]] interview with [[Gen Urobuchi]], the character Madoka is written based on Yuno from Hidamari Sketch (Aoki Ume's creation).<br />
** "To be honest, Madoka, the protagonist, is a pretty unusual character for my writing style."<br />
** "A foreign character that did not exist inside myself."<br />
** "I wrote the screenplay as if Yunocchi (from Hidamari Sketch) is to be put as the protagonist. I even had the preparation that seiyuu Asumi (Kana)-san would play her (lol)." <br />
** "I imagined all the other characters by starting from “Madoka = Yuno”."<br />
** "And every time I got Yunocchi to cry I got hated by the Hidamari fans more (lol)."<br />
<br />
==Trivia==<br />
* The characters of her last name mean "deer" (鹿) and "eye"(目), respectively.<br />
* Her last name can also be used as a first name.<br />
* Her last name sounds the same as (要), a word which means "keystone" or "hub".<br />
* Her first name is written in hiragana which has no particular meaning. However, when written in kanji, it can mean "round" or "tranquil" (円).<br />
* Madoka owns many stuffed animals in [[Madoka's House#Madoka's Room|her room]].<br />
* Madoka and [[Mami]] are the only Magical Girls known who are never seen having a mark on any of their fingernails. [[Homura]], [[Kyoko]] and [[Sayaka]] all have marks on their left middle fingers, matching the shape of the emblem of their respective Soul Gem.<br />
* Madoka is never seen with her Soul Gem in a ring form.<br />
* Madoka loves cats like Homura.<br />
* Aoi Yuuki (Madoka's VA) really likes [[Kyoko]] and she claimed that Kyoko is her wife. You can hear her confession in the [[:Talk:Drama_CD_2#Info_and_DL|Magical Girls Tea Party]] bonus CD.<br />
** In the commentary for [[Episode 5]] Aoi Yuki declares her love for Kyoko and desires to marry her. Ai Nonaka questions her choice and informs her all she ever does is eat. Aoi Yuki is ok with this and declares she would just adjust.<br />
*** In same comentary Chiwa Saitou sounds annoyed, some suggested perhaps she is jealous. But the question is, jealous of whom?<br />
** Aoi Yuuki [[:file:Going gaga for kyouko.jpg|goes even more gaga]] for Kyoko in the audio commentaries for [[Episode 7]]: "The one I love, it's Kyoko-tan." "Kyoko-tan is the absolute best!" "it's like she isn't trying to be cool, but she's still REALLY cool." <br />
**In the [[Talk:Key_Animation_Note|"C81 Aniplex Madoka Special Talk CD"]], not even two minutes has passed and Aoi Yuki's already fangirling over Kyoko-tan~ <br />
*Aoi Yuuki (Madoka) is trying to form [[:file:Aoi yuuki yuri harem.jpg|her own harem]]<br />
*Urobuchi in his audio commentary on BD/DVD 3 explains that he felt like Aoi Yuki was born for the role of Madoka. What he means is that she doesn't force herself into the role of becoming her character and she leaves the impression of being a natural airhead, but in a good way.<br />
*Madoka's last form is known as [[Blu-Ray_Volume_6_Booklet#Original_Design_Artworks_Six|Ultimate Madoka]]. Prior to this information, fans called her form "MadoKami", Godoka, or Goddess Madoka.<br />
**In one of the original artwork designs, it is noted that Madoka is holding a [[wikipedia:Shinai|shinai sword]] or a bow.<br />
*Madoka is a [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki Grade A Zettai Ryouiki] in her school uniform<br />
*Official information indicates that Madoka was born in October 3, making her a [[wikipedia:Libra_(astrology)|Libra]].<br />
*Wehihihi ♥ "ウェヒヒヒヒ" is an onomatopoeia for Madoka's trademark laughter. You can hear it [http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14436710 here.]<br />
<br />
==Observation==<br />
<br />
===Characterization===<br />
<blockquote>''"Madoka, you have grown to be a good girl. You don't lie and you dont do anything bad. You always try to do what is right. You are a wonderful child."'' - Junko, [[Episode 6]].</blockquote> <br />
<br />
* Madoka is a nice kid, somewhat naive due to being a teenager.<br />
** Friendly and gentle toward Homura, a new transfer student {{spoiler|no matter which timeline}}.<br />
** Wanted to be helpful to other people.<br />
** Admired Mami and was severely affected by her.{{spoiler| death}}<br />
** Constantly worried about Sayaka's safety and willing to face danger for her friend.<br />
*Madoka always tries to call other main characters their first names with postfix (-chan or -san) if possible. It may indicate that she is eager to get close to others. The only exception is Kamijou. Madoka might think it is not a good idea to get too close to him since she believes he could potentially become Sayaka's boyfriend. <br />
**This is confirmed in the PSP, when Madoka finally calls him by his first name, after Sayaka made advances with him in one of the endings.<br />
* A level-headed person, capable of making decisions on her own.<br />
** Didn't believe Homura is "totally evil" as she was told, and tried to understand her better based on what she observed.<br />
** Didn't wish to {{spoiler|revive Mami, who is just a new acquaintance}}, but was ready to sacrifice herself for her best friend [[Sayaka]]. This added to the realistic aspect of Madoka's character.<br />
** Tried to prevent Sayaka and Kyoko's unnecessary fight, and pursued Sayaka to solve conflicts by negotiation instead of violence.<br />
** Looked for advise from her mother without mentioning magic.<br />
** Can answer immediately to [[Kyubey]] that {{spoiler|even if the Incubators have good reason to collect energy, they are still humanity's enemy.}} This is demonstrates her understanding of humanity.<br />
** Kept calm toward Homura's revelation and reminded Sayaka not to stir conflicts between teammates (TL3).<br />
** Acted fast to take out {{spoiler|Mami}} and saved Homura (TL3).<br />
** {{spoiler|Used the last grief seed to save Homura because she wanted the latter to prevent a tragic outcome (TL3).}}<br />
** Thought of a wish that would bring the most benefits to other people based on the info she had.<br />
* The difference between the character of Madoka and the character of Sayaka: While both are good-hearted girls, Madoka never judges based on first impressions, never makes rash assumptions, and has the mentality to deal with truth. <br />
* Madoka's wishes always stemmed from her kindness.<br />
** From what we know until now, she contracted with Kyubey in order to {{spoiler|save a cat whom had just died in front of her (TL1), save Homura from Walpurgisnacht (TL4), and release Magical Girls in the past and future from their cursed fate of becoming witches (Episode 12)}}.<br />
** Asked to accompany Sayaka on her witch hunt just so that if the latter was ever in danger, she could make a wish and rescue Sayaka. She nearly made this wish in [[Episode 8]].<br />
** Madoka's kindness is one of the major reasons why Homura is so drawn to her. From [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD 1 ''"Memories of you"'']], {{spoiler|the reason Madoka became a Magical Girl in the first timeline is to save a cat which had been run over by a car. Madoka also treated Homura very nicely from the beginning, who at that time was being bullied. We also learn that whenever Madoka made a contract and become a Magical Girl, she would act much more confident since it gave her a sense of purpose. Homura's interventions during the course of the anime prevented this change.}}<br />
*According with Urobuchi, he made Junko a [[Blu-Ray_Volume_4_Booklet#Gen_Urobuchi_.28Screenplay_for_All_Episodes.29_.26_Akiyuki_Shinbo_.28Director.29_Conversation_Part_1|strong woman]] so Madoka would want to emulate her strength and courage.<br />
**It is possible that the reason Madoka feels so useless prior to becoming a magical girl, is that she consciously fails to measure to her own mother.<br />
***It is suggested that the reason Madoka is so miserable is that she wishes for power in order to be selfless so that she won't be miserable any more. Kyubey uses this to manipulate Madoka's thinking into making her wish through her guilt. He tries to manipulate Madoka into a belief that she can be free from her misery by making a selfless wish.<br />
***Without the wish and the life experience as a magical girl, Madoka's character never grows and develops into a courageous heroine. However, her life experience as a scared teenage girl, constantly crying and mourning the death of so many, always wanting to do what's right yet feeling powerless, the failure of attempting to save friends and strangers, and the sorrow she feels for the victims of innocent girls {{spoiler|deceived by a calculating cold alien allows Madoka to finally develops the courage to confront her fears to save Homura and the world, instead of succumbing to despair and running away, Madoka finally grows up. The scene with her mother in Episode 11 leaves that impression.}}<br />
*In [[Episode 6]], Junko and Madoka had a conversation on how difficult it is to do the right thing, even when no one is in the wrong (per say). Junko's advice was for Madoka to be on the wrong against her friend to solve the problem, even if it means that her friend would hate her for it. In [[Episode 11]] Junko confronts Madoka to stop her from getting into the danger of the storm, Madoka reminds her mother that she is a good girl and never does anything wrong but she tells her she needs to do this, a throwback to their earlier conversation. Madoka knows that what she is doing will worry her family, but she also knows that she must disobey her mother to save her family and her town. This conversation between Junko and Madoka earns her mother's trust.<br />
* In the [[Drama CD 2|Drama CD ''"Sunny Day Life"'']] Madoka ''used'' to get good grades, but her duties as a magical girl are interfering with her studies.<br />
** For what is worth, Madoka's grades are still better than Sayaka's.<br />
<br />
===Important Plot Points===<br />
* [[Episode 8]]: Kyubey claimed Madoka's power to be godlike, to the point where she could even change the laws of the universe if she wished for it.<br />
* [[Episode 10]]: {{spoiler|In the first timeline, Madoka along with Mami saved Homura from a familiar. She died during the fight with Walpurgis Night. In the second timeline, Madoka turned into a witch for the first time, revealing to Homura the link between Magical Girls and Witches. In a later timeline, Madoka killed Mami in order to save Homura, as Mami lost control of herself and had just killed Kyoko. This is also the timeline in which Madoka asked Homura to go back in time to prevent her from becoming a Magical Girl.}} Madoka's power increased exponentially {{spoiler|after every timeline. The first time showed she was an ordinary magical girl. In later timeline she had enough power to defeat Walpurgis in one shot, was capable of destroying the entire planet within 10 days in her witch form, and satisfied all Kyubey's energy quotas of the Earth.}} <br />
* [[Episode 11]]: {{spoiler|Homura's time repeats had linked multiple parallel universes together with Madoka's fate as their center. With every reset, Homura would force yet another parallel universe to be centered around Madoka. The accumulated karma is the reason why Madoka's potential power is so great.}} Hearing the revelations from Kyubey regarding the history of Magical Girls, Madoka was deeply hurt and thus wanted to save these girls from despair.<br />
* [[Episode 12]]: Madoka {{spoiler|wished to erase all witches in every dimension, in every timeline, with her own hands. This created a paradox because Madoka would eventually erase her own witch self, while she must continue to exist and destroy other witches. This paradox resulted in Madoka escaping the bounds of reality and ascending to godhood. Since Madoka never existed as a human in this new reality, she is no longer remembered by anyone, except for Homura. It has been suggested that Sayaka also remembers her in the new timeline as well, as Sayaka confesses to her in Episode 12 that she has caused her best friend a lot of trouble; this could be interpreted as Sayaka having learnt of her unfortunate fate of turning into a witch in the other timelines, an outcome which clearly inflicted a great deal of emotional hurt on Madoka. }}<br />
<br />
==Speculation==<br />
* Some fans speculate that Madoka presumably made a wish for a large cake in one of the timelines, under the influence of Mami.<br />
** However, this is highly debatable. {{spoiler|Her original wish to save Amy would still apply if her circumstances to the event remains the same.}}<br />
* Theoretically there is also the danger that, should Madoka become extremely powerful and turn into a witch, her power may be enough to destroy not only Earth, but the entire universe.<br />
** INCREDIBLY unlikely. Kyubey's species is (if they can be trusted) trying to save the universe in the first place, not trying to destroy it. They wouldn't create something they can't take down.<br />
*** Then again, Kyubey remarked in the fourth timeline that he didn't know Madoka would turn out to be so powerful. While in this timeline he probably knows (and definitely doesn't care) that the witch form of Madoka could destroy the Earth, he may not know the full extent of her power.<br />
*** Madoka's wish includes a hidden if-then clause {{spoiler|to prevent her from ever becoming a witch}}. Because her wish is to {{spoiler|erase all witches before they're born with her own hands, she has the power to erase her own witch from existence}}. Which is what we see happen.<br />
* It is speculated that any wish Madoka ever made would be twisted because of the nature of the wish, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey suspects that as long as the motives are selfish, the wish will always be twisted because the wishers' desire would always fail to meet their expectation.<br />
** It is speculated that Madoka realized that as long as her thinking was selfish or incorrect, then her wish would also be twisted. It is suspect that Madoka contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in [[Episode 11]], without being caught into the snare of the wish's trap. {{spoiler|It is suspected that Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence.}}<br />
*** A Philosophical analysis tries to determine Madoka's motive, [[Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive|Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive]]<br />
*An argument can be said that Madoka has two ways to develop her courage. One is through Kyubey by magic (which is the easiest path); the other way is more difficult and hurtful, the painful life experience and lessons she receives through friends, family members, and from strangers. But the most influential character in Madoka's life would be her mother, her source of wisdom, courage, and strength.<br />
** The [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD "Memories of you"]], states that Madoka used to have low self-esteem and doubts about herself until she became a magical girl.<br />
* It is suspected that the series is attempting to show the journey of a little girl growing up from a simple life that is then thrown into the realm of magic. From her innocent eyes she perceives the magical world to be good, fantastic, and pleasing. But once Madoka experiences the dark nature of the magic world, she attempts to escape from the dark world of magic and at the same time evade the cynical world of reality. During her scene with her mother, Madoka attempts to move from the hopeless world of reality into the realm of adulthood. However, because Madoka still retains her hopes and dreams some would suggest that Madoka, rather than being regressed into a childish person, is growing into a hopeful adult that dreams for a better future.<br />
** This is considered incorrect. In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption—this is one of the most important metaphors in the anime (If we were never corrupted, we would never be "mature", our true images, when not corrupted, are images of naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion). When one becomes an adult, most likely she becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that she cannot resonate with other people and the power of the light side (hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity" - "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart - the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep within her.<br />
* I concur. In the anime, Kyubey refers to the magical girls as "puella" (in the title, which should suggest even greater significance). Puella, as he phrased it, referred to an immature girl. He also mentioned that these girls "grow up" into witches, implying that with maturity comes darkness and pain. The "adulthood" that is referenced in this series refers mostly to the dark side of humanity. <br />
** During the old world, "maturity" is essentially the corruption of a girl's adolescence. Kyubey's process is an attempt to uncover the darkness and selfish nature of the girls by amplifying it during the developing period into a witch. Is not an issue of purity as much as an issue of naivete and inexperience innocence; Kyubey corrupts these girls because they haven't been exposed or experienced the gritty reality of the world. Their lives as magical girls shatter their ideal views of a mahou shoujo, in the case of Kyoko as an example. Even Madoka became a Witch, perhaps as a statement of the flawed nature of humanity. But there was also a message of hope, Ultimate Madoka, a version of hope and sacrifice that defeated her Superwitch counterpart. This new entity born of the same metamorphosis process overcame the corrupting process of the system and developed into a much more mature Madoka. The reason for this new change is because Madoka made her wish that reflected her part as a sensible young adult, with the guidance of self reflection and wise counsel from others. The previous Madoka versions failed because they didn't reach their natural maturity when they made their wishes; they made their wishes with the mental view of an innocent child who didnt fully mature or understood the world. This new Madoka carries with her the hopes of magical girls, not just her own. However, as a responsible adult she must fade from the world and help many girls by taking their impurities with her. Madoka knows that she cannot abandon them, no matter how much she would miss her family and friends. This new Madoka has inhered a new sense of maturity and adult responsibility. The process of maturing into a better person requires Madoka to inherit the traits that comes with adulthood. It doesnt mean that Madoka becomes a better adult automatically nor a corrupt adult either. It just means that Madoka cannot grow into maturity without taking the elements of adulthood with her. In the series, adulthood can much as mean corruption as well as a new sense of guardianship. In this new sense, maturity and adulthood are not exclusive. One can become an adult without maturing (a witch), but one cannot mature without becoming an adult. One great example of Madoka's maturity is respecting the magical girls' wishes and dreams by not undoing their wishes or undoing their deaths. Another example is Madoka's acceptance of the need of a system to repair the damage done to the universe. Madoka's system is not perfect but she attempts to adjust it to make it more fair. Rather than radically alter the world to an "ideal version" (or paradise, as [[Kriemhild Gretchen]] tried), Madoka accepts the world as it is and tries to work within it. Madoka is in the process of growing into a fine woman, just like her mother Junko.<br />
*** Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the magical girls in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purest souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but of all people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts are blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the magical girls in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption(absorbing the greatest darkness) from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels; in the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults (people whose true heart are blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, as stated, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonates with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart (subconsciousness) is like (the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings alone are all that I live for, what will create my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
**** I would like to point out that there is a contradiction. If only the purity of Madoka's soul can save the girls. Then what does one make of the other girls? If Madoka is so pure and the reason she became a Witch was because of the corruption tainting her heart, then what changed in the end? If magical girls are not selfish, does that make them selfless? If so, then why couldn't they overcome their own corruption? One cannot be selfless and selfish at the same time, this in essence is a contradiction. To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective. Mami wanted to live but she regretted her choice because she didn't think of saving her family at the time. Sayaka wanted to heal Kyosuke because she felt sorry for him, but she also admits too late that she also wanted his love. This is why Kyubey knows that any wish will be corrupted, because it gets twisted by its own logic.<br />
***** The taint made them selfish, this means the taint blinds them from seeing hope, and thus they're only controlled by their grief and desperation. Madoka has selfish desires, but they vanished so quickly inside Madoka's heart because they're powerless, until Madoka is tainted by the darkness of the witch she had defeated(corruption thus pass from one to the other, and it conserves). It is not the girls are not selfish at all, it is that though they're basically selfless, and they're much more selfless than most people, they have a desire to protect their own hearts. When darkness blinds them, their dark side is magnified while their good side being blinded, thus they become witches. One can be selfless and selfish at the same time, we have both the nature of being selflessness and selfishness(desire to protect oneself), and when darkness blinds one, the two parts of us would be conflicting, and darkness may(or may not) win at the end. However, I do agree with this "To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective.". <br />
*****Unlike Sayaka, Madoka probably gets corrupted not because her wish gets twisted. It is possible her wish only got twisted after she became a witch, not before it, so perhaps it is not causing her transformation into a witch. As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected.<br />
******This is contradictory, all wishes get twisted according to Kyubey, because it never achieves the results one ever wants or expects. This is part of why girls gent transformed into Witches, it is part of the metamorphosis. This is already stated in [[Episode 11]]. Unless a counter-proof is provided, this is highly unlikely. In the case of Kyoko, while her wish was her innocent attempt to help her father, she failed to realized that she did not ask for her father's consent or opinion. Instead he felt he was used without his consent and that the magic spell was forced upon him.<br />
***This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor. This is, as it has been said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
****An argument can be said that its message is also about the hope of humanity, that even beyond the shadow of corruption there is a veil of hope for those who strife for it. Madoka, instead of turning her back to a corrupt world, decided she wanted to save it. If the world is corrupt, then it is assumed that is beyond saving. Instead, Madoka sacrificed herself to change the world into a better place. The new world is not perfect, it is still plagued with flaws and corruption, but it is also a little bit fair and merciful. <br />
***** When it is said that the world is hurrying to its ruin, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, it simply means that without people's resonance with hope, without any change, the world will surely destroys itself. But there is always hope, as what Madoka has shown to viewers, the power of hope can shatter all the darkness, and change the rule of universe, which is what will save humanity.<br />
***Madoka's maturity, as it has been stated, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. The words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".<br />
****This observation is essential to understanding the anime, it underlines that the story is of "coming of age" in an imperfect world. However, the series is not an attempt to attack adulthood, but illuminate the flaws of a cruel world that children are forced to grow into. The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers.<br />
*****It is suggested that the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood".<br />
<br />
==Magazine Article==<br />
*[[NewType_2011-07#Madoka_Character_Description|July's NewType article]]<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Kazumi Magica==<br />
[[File:Kazumi madoka.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
* Madoka's silhouette appeared once during Juubey's explanation about Magical Girl system. She also makes a single-panel cameo in the extra pages in the first volume of the collected edition.<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Oriko Magica==<br />
<blockquote>''"How can you be so calm, Homura-chan? Why? Why are you only saving me? You have such an incredible power, Homura-chan!!" <br \ > "If you're going to abandon everyone and run away, then you shouldn't save me...!"'' - Madoka, [[Oriko_Magica#Chapter_5:_That.27s_what_I.27m_here_for|Puella Magi Oriko Magica, Chapter 5]].</blockquote><br />
* Madoka appears in Chapter 3, asking [[Homura]] to go home with her, along with [[Sayaka]] and [[Hitomi]]. She is well protected by Homura and isn't aware of Magical Girl system.<br />
* She appears in Chapter 4 for one page. She is shown with her friends Homura, Sayaka and Hitomi going out for snacks after school.<br />
* In chapters 5 through 7, Mitakihara Junior High was attacked by [[Oriko]] and [[Kirika]]. Oriko spoke to the school through the school's broadcast system, and seemed to give a threatening look to Madoka as she claimed she defeat a creature of ultimate despair that will descend upon them. As a witch's barrier forms over the school, Madoka is separated from her friends attacked by familiars. Homura saves her in time, but Madoka demands to know why she does not help the other students. Homura knows she cannot save everyone, and wanted to try to save Madoka anyway. Madoka apologized as Homura puts her in a protective barrier so familiars cannot attack her and left to defeat the perpetrators. Madoka escaped from the protective barrier created by Homura, and tried to help Homura with Sayaka and Hitomi. {{spoiler|Madoka was Oriko's real target. The white magical girl wanted to kill her before she could contract and become a magical girl herself, and then the most powerful witch ever. She was killed by Oriko at the very end, when they were dying Oriko used a shard of Kirika's witch body to impale Madoka through the torso. Once Oriko died and the witch barrier was lifted, Hitomi and Sayaka mourning for the dead Madoka became visible.}}<br />
<br />
==Madoka in Madoka Magica Portable==<br />
{|class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" style="width:100%;"<br />
|-<br />
!style="text-align:left; padding:10px;"|Warning, this section contains spoilers on game endings.<br />
|-<br />
|style="padding:10px; background:#fff;"|<br />
<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Gallery==<br />
<br />
=== Official art ===<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Kaname Anime Design.jpg|Initial design<br />
File:Madoka Kaname Original Design.jpg|Original character design by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Madoka morning pajama.png|<br />
File:Sleepover.jpg|Madoka having a sleepover with friends<br />
File:Madoka bd1 4koma.jpg|Translated [[Ume Aoki|Ume]] 4koma from Madoka BD volume 1<br />
File:BD 4 Ume 4koma TL.jpg|Translated Ume 4koma from Madoka BD volume 4<br />
File:Autographed illustration umeaoki.JPG|Autographed illustration by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Ume madoka kyubey.jpg<br />
File:Ume aoki dojinshi madoka.jpg|[[Ume Aoki]]'s Dojinshi "RKGKMDK"<br />
File:Apricot +6.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup 2.jpg<br />
File:Madoka designs 1.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 2.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 3.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 4.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 5.jpg<br />
File:408.5.jpg|Animedia 2011-06<br />
File:Megami 04.2011 Madoka Pin-up.jpg|Megami magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:Nyantype 04.2011 Madoka Illustration.jpg|Nyantype magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:BD 1 Scan 8.jpg|from the Blu-Ray Volume 1 Booklet.<br />
File:MadokainKazumi.png|Madoka as drawn by Takashi Tensugi, the artist for [[Kazumi Magica]].<br />
File:MadokainOriko.png|Madoka as she appears in [[Oriko Magica]].<br />
File:Newtype 07 2011 p18 p19.jpg<br />
File:Madohomu prodsketch.jpg|Early production sketch of Madoka with Homura.<br />
File:PN 83.jpg<br />
File:Kisseymadokasketch.jpg|Goddess Madoka from the [[Puella Magi Production Notes|production notes]].<br />
File:Madoka magica anthology 1.jpg|Madoka Magica Anthology 1<br />
File:Ultimate Madoka settei information 6 official art BD 6.jpg|Ultimate Madoka by Ume Aoki.<br />
File:PN 09.jpg<br />
File:PN 56.jpg<br />
File:PN 57.jpg<br />
File:PN 58.jpg<br />
File:PN 59.jpg<br />
File:Animedia_2012-02_03.jpg|Animedia magazine, February 2012. Madoka's ring and fingernail mark as a magical girl are visible.<br />
File:618624.jpg<br />
File:20111112_3d97ad-2.jpg<br />
File:574169-1.jpg|Notice how Madoka's Soul Gem ring and fingernail marking are visible.<br />
File:Chibi_Madoka.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Screenshots ===<br />
==== Madoka as a regular girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Op_ep6_vs_ep5.jpg|Madoka x Madoka in the opening animation<br />
File:Madoka night clothes.jpg|Closeup of sleepy-eyed Madoka in the OP<br />
File:Madoka sleep on QB.gif|Sleepy Madoka<br />
File:Madoka is shy.gif|Madoka is shy<br />
File:Madoka family.gif|Madoka's family<br />
File:Madoka everyday life.gif|Madoka everyday life<br />
File:Madoka_ Sayaka_Hitomi.gif|Madoka & friends<br />
File:Madoka wakes up.gif|Madoka wakes up<br />
File:Madoka_Sayaka_Hitomi_playing.gif|Madoka Sayaka Hitomi playing<br />
File:Kaname-madoka.jpg|Madoka Kaname<br />
File:Screenshot madoka fascinating.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-loveletter.PNG|Madoka daydreaming about getting a love letter.<br />
File:Madoka-ponytail.jpg|Madoka with a ponytail<br />
File:Madoka crying.gif|Madoka crying<br />
File:Madoka received a gift.gif|Madoka received a gift <br />
File:Madoka is upset.gif|Madoka is upset<br />
File:Madoka_Sketch.jpg|A self-portrait. Drawing is one of Madoka's hobbies.<br />
File:Madoka hands.jpg|Closeup of Madoka's hands in [[Episode 10]] (TBS version), Timeline 1, when she is walking [[Homura]] to the nurse's office. She is known to be contracted by then. Note no Soul Gem ring or fingernail mark.<br />
File:Madoka tied up on the wheel of time.gif|Madoka tied up on the wheel of time<br />
File:Kaname_Madoka.png<br />
File:340798-madoka.jpg<br />
File:Ep6_madoka_long_hair.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000108.jpg<br />
File:464082.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000272-1.jpg<br />
File:Puella110_000043.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000292.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a Magical Girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-dodging.jpg|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka-dodging.gif|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka hug Homura.gif|Madoka hug Homura<br />
File:Madoka-mahou-shoujo.jpg|Madoka Kaname, Total Badass.<br />
File:Madoka hands 2.jpg|Madoka is purifying [[Homura]]'s Soul Gem in [[Episode 10]]'s Timeline 3. Again, note no fingernail mark.<br>[[:File:Madoka is purifying Homuras Soul Gem.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokamercy.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-soul-gem.jpg|Madoka's soul gem<br />
File:Madoka.png<br />
File:Tumblr_lk2ccuqv5G1qb7j0bo1_1280.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000091.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h50m38s0.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m14s99.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m45s157.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m48s189.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m54s246.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m59s46.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magika-10-mbs-x264-1920x1080-mp4-00001.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-10-large-06.jpg<br />
File:Madoka transformation_PSP.gif|Madoka's transformation in PSP GAME<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a witch ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-grief-seed.png|Madoka/Kriemhild's grief seed.<br />
File:Madoka-witch-first.jpg|Madoka's witch transformation in the second timeline.<br />
File:Kaname witch form power.jpg|Madoka's witch form.<br />
File:Madoka the Ultimate Witch.jpg|A closeup of the face of the ultimate witch form of Madoka born as a result of her wish in the story timeline.<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Fanart ===<br />
{{fanart}}<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Superfriends.png|Many experts believe something sort of like this happened after the final episode of Madoka Magica ended<br />
File:Madoka fuels the Universe.png|<br />
File:Aoki_ume_madoka_doujin_art_highrez.png|Fan coloring of Ume's work<br />
File:Madokami art front back.jpg|Madoka as the Goddess/concept of Hope<br />
File:Fan creation Madoka Soul Gem.jpg|Fan jewelry creation of Madoka's Soul Gem with a pink nebula inside (?) or a pink rose bud (?)<br />
File:MadoKami gundam.jpg|<br />
File:Scary madokami.jpg|You shall have no other gods before Me. That includes that wannabe Haruhi.<br />
File:MadoKami and Charlotte.jpg|Madoka rescues Charlotte.<br />
File:Madoka evolution magical girl.jpg|Madoka has evolved into MadoKami! <br />
File:It's tough to be a goddess.gif|No Mahou Shoujo Predator? But they are practically born into the hunting tradition!<br />
File:Madoka learning how to befriend.png|Madoka learning from the master.<br />
File:Meet the time traveler.jpg|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=36lSzUMBJnc Meet the Goddess]<br />
File:Namacha I Won't Allow That.png|MadoKami already abusing her Goddess powers, and we are fine with this.<br />
File:Madoprince homuprincess.jpg<br />
File:Chibimadokami.jpg|MadoKami died for our HHHNNNNNGGGGG~!<br />
File:Madoka pixel mugen.gif<br />
File:MadoKami all powerful fanart.jpg|''Thou Shall Have no Other Anime gods Before Me.''<br />
File:Madoka ;p fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka afro op fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka Ben-to.jpg|"And thus begins the "that character sounds like Madoka, imagine if she was the one to say that" adventures with Aoi Yuuki's characters.<br />
File:Madokami bow arrow aiming posture fanart.jpg<br />
File:AeFLl-1.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Miscellaneous ===<br />
<br />
==== Madoka's bow ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Bow.jpg|Rendition of Madoka's bow; it looks like a branch with a rose on its end<br />
File:Madoka-bow-firing.PNG|Madoka's bow in action<br />
File:Madoka-firing.jpg|You're gonna get befriended!<br>[[:File:Madoka shooting one arrow.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokas-arrow.jpg|A close-up of Madoka's arrow<br />
File:Madoka-multishot.jpg|Madoka using Multi-Shot<br>[[:File:Madoka multi shots.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:PN 13.jpg|Sketches from production notes.<br />
File:PN 14.jpg<br />
File:PN 22.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Aoi Yuki ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:BLT Aoi Yuki.jpg|Aoi Yuki. BLT magazine, 2011-6.<br />
File:Animedia 05.2011 Aoi Yuki DATA FILE.png|Aoi Yuki [[Animedia_2011-05|Data file]].<br />
File:Aoi yuki madoka.jpg<br />
File:Seiyuu aoi yuuki 2008 article picture.jpg<br />
File:Magical Girl Otona Anime 08.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Kriemhild Gretchen]], Madoka's witch form.<br />
* [[GetNavi 2011-12|GetNavi 2011-12]]<br />
* [[Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)|Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)]]<br />
* [[Animedia_2011-05#Aoi_Yuki_.28Madoka.29_Data_File|Aoi Yuki's Data file]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*{{pixiv_tag|鹿目まどか}}<br />
*{{booru_tag|danbooru|kaname_madoka}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Characters]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=Madoka_Kaname&diff=45130Madoka Kaname2012-08-19T07:08:21Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div><blockquote>''"If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time."'' - Madoka Kaname, [[Episode 12]].</blockquote><br />
<br />
{{Infobox_character<br />
|name=Madoka Kaname<br />
|image=[[File:Madoka Chara Sheet.jpg|300px]]<br />
|jname=鹿目 まどか (Kaname Madoka) <br />
|voices=<br />
Japanese: [http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=creator&creatorid=1625 Aoi Yuuki]<br />English: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=95337 Christine Marie Cabanos]<br />Italian: [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=70851 Joy Saltarelli]<br />
|age=14 <!-- via CM --><br />
|weapon=Bow<br />
}}<br />
'''Madoka Kaname''', the protagonist and title character, is a gentle and friendly 14 year old girl. Living an ordinary life, Madoka has a loving family and is surrounded by good friends. One day she had a dream of a mysterious girl who was fighting an ominous creature. The next day, [[Homura Akemi|Akemi Homura]], the girl from her dream, came to her class as a transfer student.<br />
<br />
==Official Info==<br />
* Character profile:<br />
** A good-natured and ordinary eighth-grader. She is the health coordinator in her class.<br />
** Even her bow-wielding magical girl form projects an air of kind friendliness. Her choker bears a pink gem.<br />
**[[Ume Aoki|Ms. Aoki]]’s Design Check!: I drew her keeping in mind that as the main character she needs to be average, but also an exceptionally good girl. Hence her puffy, high-placed twin tails. The design and color of her ribbons took a lot of work, but in the end calmed down to something simple.<br />
** Magical girl outfit: Madoka was drawn to be the very image of a magical girl. I added an almost fairy tale-ish hints, so hopefully female viewers will be charmed by her as well. (Aoki)<br />
** Full of tiny frills, with ribbons arranged at the neck, waist, and on the shoes. It’s perfectly “cute”, and seemingly unsuited for combat, but…<br />
** School uniform: Designed to convey the classy image of a private girls’ school, while not being -too- normal. Its distinguishing point is the small hole at the nape of the neck. (Aoki)<br />
** Of the heroines shown here, Madoka has the most childish body. Her legs are clad in pure, virginal white over-knee socks.<br />
* From the [[Pre-Broadcast November Advertisement|pre-broadcast November promotional video]]:<br />
** "A gentle 2nd year middle school girl who thinks of friends before herself."<br />
** "If anything could be granted with a magic…"<br />
** "What would you do?" <br />
* From the anime:<br />
** Madoka's mother, [[Junko Kaname|Junko]], commented that she has always been a good child and never lies.<br />
** Kyubey, Homura and Mami confirmed that Madoka has great magical potential.<br />
** Madoka is the only one without a transformation sequence as a magical girl within the Anime series.<br />
** Madoka became {{spoiler|the Embodiment of Hope in the finale.}}<br />
* A [[100 Questions|100 Question Survey]] has been published revealing details about Madoka such as her likes, dislikes, hobbies, and physical attributes.<br />
**Birthday: October 3<br />
**Blood Type: A<br />
**Height: Slightly less than 150cm (4'11"). Production Note shows a [[:Media:PN_10.jpg|height revision]] to 152cm (5'0").<br />
**Shoe size: 22 JP (Women's 5.5 US, Children's 4 US, 36 EU, 3 UK)<br />
* According to a [[NewType 2011-07]] interview with [[Gen Urobuchi]], the character Madoka is written based on Yuno from Hidamari Sketch (Aoki Ume's creation).<br />
** "To be honest, Madoka, the protagonist, is a pretty unusual character for my writing style."<br />
** "A foreign character that did not exist inside myself."<br />
** "I wrote the screenplay as if Yunocchi (from Hidamari Sketch) is to be put as the protagonist. I even had the preparation that seiyuu Asumi (Kana)-san would play her (lol)." <br />
** "I imagined all the other characters by starting from “Madoka = Yuno”."<br />
** "And every time I got Yunocchi to cry I got hated by the Hidamari fans more (lol)."<br />
<br />
==Trivia==<br />
* The characters of her last name mean "deer" (鹿) and "eye"(目), respectively.<br />
* Her last name can also be used as a first name.<br />
* Her last name sounds the same as (要), a word which means "keystone" or "hub".<br />
* Her first name is written in hiragana which has no particular meaning. However, when written in kanji, it can mean "round" or "tranquil" (円).<br />
* Madoka owns many stuffed animals in [[Madoka's House#Madoka's Room|her room]].<br />
* Madoka and [[Mami]] are the only Magical Girls known who are never seen having a mark on any of their fingernails. [[Homura]], [[Kyoko]] and [[Sayaka]] all have marks on their left middle fingers, matching the shape of the emblem of their respective Soul Gem.<br />
* Madoka is never seen with her Soul Gem in a ring form.<br />
* Madoka loves cats like Homura.<br />
* Aoi Yuuki (Madoka's VA) really likes [[Kyoko]] and she claimed that Kyoko is her wife. You can hear her confession in the [[:Talk:Drama_CD_2#Info_and_DL|Magical Girls Tea Party]] bonus CD.<br />
** In the commentary for [[Episode 5]] Aoi Yuki declares her love for Kyoko and desires to marry her. Ai Nonaka questions her choice and informs her all she ever does is eat. Aoi Yuki is ok with this and declares she would just adjust.<br />
*** In same comentary Chiwa Saitou sounds annoyed, some suggested perhaps she is jealous. But the question is, jealous of whom?<br />
** Aoi Yuuki [[:file:Going gaga for kyouko.jpg|goes even more gaga]] for Kyoko in the audio commentaries for [[Episode 7]]: "The one I love, it's Kyoko-tan." "Kyoko-tan is the absolute best!" "it's like she isn't trying to be cool, but she's still REALLY cool." <br />
**In the [[Talk:Key_Animation_Note|"C81 Aniplex Madoka Special Talk CD"]], not even two minutes has passed and Aoi Yuki's already fangirling over Kyoko-tan~ <br />
*Aoi Yuuki (Madoka) is trying to form [[:file:Aoi yuuki yuri harem.jpg|her own harem]]<br />
*Urobuchi in his audio commentary on BD/DVD 3 explains that he felt like Aoi Yuki was born for the role of Madoka. What he means is that she doesn't force herself into the role of becoming her character and she leaves the impression of being a natural airhead, but in a good way.<br />
*Madoka's last form is known as [[Blu-Ray_Volume_6_Booklet#Original_Design_Artworks_Six|Ultimate Madoka]]. Prior to this information, fans called her form "MadoKami", Godoka, or Goddess Madoka.<br />
**In one of the original artwork designs, it is noted that Madoka is holding a [[wikipedia:Shinai|shinai sword]] or a bow.<br />
*Madoka is a [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki Grade A Zettai Ryouiki] in her school uniform<br />
*Official information indicates that Madoka was born in October 3, making her a [[wikipedia:Libra_(astrology)|Libra]].<br />
*Wehihihi ♥ "ウェヒヒヒヒ" is an onomatopoeia for Madoka's trademark laughter. You can hear it [http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14436710 here.]<br />
<br />
==Observation==<br />
<br />
===Characterization===<br />
<blockquote>''"Madoka, you have grown to be a good girl. You don't lie and you dont do anything bad. You always try to do what is right. You are a wonderful child."'' - Junko, [[Episode 6]].</blockquote> <br />
<br />
* Madoka is a nice kid, somewhat naive due to being a teenager.<br />
** Friendly and gentle toward Homura, a new transfer student {{spoiler|no matter which timeline}}.<br />
** Wanted to be helpful to other people.<br />
** Admired Mami and was severely affected by her.{{spoiler| death}}<br />
** Constantly worried about Sayaka's safety and willing to face danger for her friend.<br />
*Madoka always tries to call other main characters their first names with postfix (-chan or -san) if possible. It may indicate that she is eager to get close to others. The only exception is Kamijou. Madoka might think it is not a good idea to get too close to him since she believes he could potentially become Sayaka's boyfriend. <br />
**This is confirmed in the PSP, when Madoka finally calls him by his first name, after Sayaka made advances with him in one of the endings.<br />
* A level-headed person, capable of making decisions on her own.<br />
** Didn't believe Homura is "totally evil" as she was told, and tried to understand her better based on what she observed.<br />
** Didn't wish to {{spoiler|revive Mami, who is just a new acquaintance}}, but was ready to sacrifice herself for her best friend [[Sayaka]]. This added to the realistic aspect of Madoka's character.<br />
** Tried to prevent Sayaka and Kyoko's unnecessary fight, and pursued Sayaka to solve conflicts by negotiation instead of violence.<br />
** Looked for advise from her mother without mentioning magic.<br />
** Can answer immediately to [[Kyubey]] that {{spoiler|even if the Incubators have good reason to collect energy, they are still humanity's enemy.}} This is demonstrates her understanding of humanity.<br />
** Kept calm toward Homura's revelation and reminded Sayaka not to stir conflicts between teammates (TL3).<br />
** Acted fast to take out {{spoiler|Mami}} and saved Homura (TL3).<br />
** {{spoiler|Used the last grief seed to save Homura because she wanted the latter to prevent a tragic outcome (TL3).}}<br />
** Thought of a wish that would bring the most benefits to other people based on the info she had.<br />
* The difference between the character of Madoka and the character of Sayaka: While both are good-hearted girls, Madoka never judges based on first impressions, never makes rash assumptions, and has the mentality to deal with truth. <br />
* Madoka's wishes always stemmed from her kindness.<br />
** From what we know until now, she contracted with Kyubey in order to {{spoiler|save a cat whom had just died in front of her (TL1), save Homura from Walpurgisnacht (TL4), and release Magical Girls in the past and future from their cursed fate of becoming witches (Episode 12)}}.<br />
** Asked to accompany Sayaka on her witch hunt just so that if the latter was ever in danger, she could make a wish and rescue Sayaka. She nearly made this wish in [[Episode 8]].<br />
** Madoka's kindness is one of the major reasons why Homura is so drawn to her. From [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD 1 ''"Memories of you"'']], {{spoiler|the reason Madoka became a Magical Girl in the first timeline is to save a cat which had been run over by a car. Madoka also treated Homura very nicely from the beginning, who at that time was being bullied. We also learn that whenever Madoka made a contract and become a Magical Girl, she would act much more confident since it gave her a sense of purpose. Homura's interventions during the course of the anime prevented this change.}}<br />
*According with Urobuchi, he made Junko a [[Blu-Ray_Volume_4_Booklet#Gen_Urobuchi_.28Screenplay_for_All_Episodes.29_.26_Akiyuki_Shinbo_.28Director.29_Conversation_Part_1|strong woman]] so Madoka would want to emulate her strength and courage.<br />
**It is possible that the reason Madoka feels so useless prior to becoming a magical girl, is that she consciously fails to measure to her own mother.<br />
***It is suggested that the reason Madoka is so miserable is that she wishes for power in order to be selfless so that she won't be miserable any more. Kyubey uses this to manipulate Madoka's thinking into making her wish through her guilt. He tries to manipulate Madoka into a belief that she can be free from her misery by making a selfless wish.<br />
***Without the wish and the life experience as a magical girl, Madoka's character never grows and develops into a courageous heroine. However, her life experience as a scared teenage girl, constantly crying and mourning the death of so many, always wanting to do what's right yet feeling powerless, the failure of attempting to save friends and strangers, and the sorrow she feels for the victims of innocent girls {{spoiler|deceived by a calculating cold alien allows Madoka to finally develops the courage to confront her fears to save Homura and the world, instead of succumbing to despair and running away, Madoka finally grows up. The scene with her mother in Episode 11 leaves that impression.}}<br />
*In [[Episode 6]], Junko and Madoka had a conversation on how difficult it is to do the right thing, even when no one is in the wrong (per say). Junko's advice was for Madoka to be on the wrong against her friend to solve the problem, even if it means that her friend would hate her for it. In [[Episode 11]] Junko confronts Madoka to stop her from getting into the danger of the storm, Madoka reminds her mother that she is a good girl and never does anything wrong but she tells her she needs to do this, a throwback to their earlier conversation. Madoka knows that what she is doing will worry her family, but she also knows that she must disobey her mother to save her family and her town. This conversation between Junko and Madoka earns her mother's trust.<br />
* In the [[Drama CD 2|Drama CD ''"Sunny Day Life"'']] Madoka ''used'' to get good grades, but her duties as a magical girl are interfering with her studies.<br />
** For what is worth, Madoka's grades are still better than Sayaka's.<br />
<br />
===Important Plot Points===<br />
* [[Episode 8]]: Kyubey claimed Madoka's power to be godlike, to the point where she could even change the laws of the universe if she wished for it.<br />
* [[Episode 10]]: {{spoiler|In the first timeline, Madoka along with Mami saved Homura from a familiar. She died during the fight with Walpurgis Night. In the second timeline, Madoka turned into a witch for the first time, revealing to Homura the link between Magical Girls and Witches. In a later timeline, Madoka killed Mami in order to save Homura, as Mami lost control of herself and had just killed Kyoko. This is also the timeline in which Madoka asked Homura to go back in time to prevent her from becoming a Magical Girl.}} Madoka's power increased exponentially {{spoiler|after every timeline. The first time showed she was an ordinary magical girl. In later timeline she had enough power to defeat Walpurgis in one shot, was capable of destroying the entire planet within 10 days in her witch form, and satisfied all Kyubey's energy quotas of the Earth.}} <br />
* [[Episode 11]]: {{spoiler|Homura's time repeats had linked multiple parallel universes together with Madoka's fate as their center. With every reset, Homura would force yet another parallel universe to be centered around Madoka. The accumulated karma is the reason why Madoka's potential power is so great.}} Hearing the revelations from Kyubey regarding the history of Magical Girls, Madoka was deeply hurt and thus wanted to save these girls from despair.<br />
* [[Episode 12]]: Madoka {{spoiler|wished to erase all witches in every dimension, in every timeline, with her own hands. This created a paradox because Madoka would eventually erase her own witch self, while she must continue to exist and destroy other witches. This paradox resulted in Madoka escaping the bounds of reality and ascending to godhood. Since Madoka never existed as a human in this new reality, she is no longer remembered by anyone, except for Homura. It has been suggested that Sayaka also remembers her in the new timeline as well, as Sayaka confesses to her in Episode 12 that she has caused her best friend a lot of trouble; this could be interpreted as Sayaka having learnt of her unfortunate fate of turning into a witch in the other timelines, an outcome which clearly inflicted a great deal of emotional hurt on Madoka. }}<br />
<br />
==Speculation==<br />
* Some fans speculate that Madoka presumably made a wish for a large cake in one of the timelines, under the influence of Mami.<br />
** However, this is highly debatable. {{spoiler|Her original wish to save Amy would still apply if her circumstances to the event remains the same.}}<br />
* Theoretically there is also the danger that, should Madoka become extremely powerful and turn into a witch, her power may be enough to destroy not only Earth, but the entire universe.<br />
** INCREDIBLY unlikely. Kyubey's species is (if they can be trusted) trying to save the universe in the first place, not trying to destroy it. They wouldn't create something they can't take down.<br />
*** Then again, Kyubey remarked in the fourth timeline that he didn't know Madoka would turn out to be so powerful. While in this timeline he probably knows (and definitely doesn't care) that the witch form of Madoka could destroy the Earth, he may not know the full extent of her power.<br />
*** Madoka's wish includes a hidden if-then clause {{spoiler|to prevent her from ever becoming a witch}}. Because her wish is to {{spoiler|erase all witches before they're born with her own hands, she has the power to erase her own witch from existence}}. Which is what we see happen.<br />
* It is speculated that any wish Madoka ever made would be twisted because of the nature of the wish, according with [[Episode 11]]. Kyubey suspects that as long as the motives are selfish, the wish will always be twisted because the wishers' desire would always fail to meet their expectation.<br />
** It is speculated that Madoka realized that as long as her thinking was selfish or incorrect, then her wish would also be twisted. It is suspect that Madoka contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in [[Episode 11]], without being caught into the snare of the wish's trap. {{spoiler|It is suspected that Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence.}}<br />
*** A Philosophical analysis tries to determine Madoka's motive, [[Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive|Talk:Philosophical_Observations#Madoka_and_Minding_her_Motive]]<br />
*An argument can be said that Madoka has two ways to develop her courage. One is through Kyubey by magic (which is the easiest path); the other way is more difficult and hurtful, the painful life experience and lessons she receives through friends, family members, and from strangers. But the most influential character in Madoka's life would be her mother, her source of wisdom, courage, and strength.<br />
** The [[Drama CD 1|Drama CD "Memories of you"]], states that Madoka used to have low self-esteem and doubts about herself until she became a magical girl.<br />
* It is suspected that the series is attempting to show the journey of a little girl growing up from a simple life that is then thrown into the realm of magic. From her innocent eyes she perceives the magical world to be good, fantastic, and pleasing. But once Madoka experiences the dark nature of the magic world, she attempts to escape from the dark world of magic and at the same time evade the cynical world of reality. During her scene with her mother, Madoka attempts to move from the hopeless world of reality into the realm of adulthood. However, because Madoka still retains her hopes and dreams some would suggest that Madoka, rather than being regressed into a childish person, is growing into a hopeful adult that dreams for a better future.<br />
** This is considered incorrect. In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption—this is one of the most important metaphors in the anime (If we were never corrupted, we would never be "mature", our true images, when not corrupted, are images of naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion). When one becomes an adult, most likely she becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that she cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side (hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
* I concur. In the anime, Kyubey refers to the magical girls as "puella" (in the title, which should suggest even greater significance). Puella, as he phrased it, referred to an immature girl. He also mentioned that these girls "grow up" into witches, implying that with maturity comes darkness and pain. The "adulthood" that is referenced in this series refers mostly to the dark side of humanity. <br />
** During the old world, "maturity" is essentially the corruption of a girl's adolescence. Kyubey's process is an attempt to uncover the darkness and selfish nature of the girls by amplifying it during the developing period into a witch. Is not an issue of purity as much as an issue of naivete and inexperience innocence; Kyubey corrupts these girls because they haven't been exposed or experienced the gritty reality of the world. Their lives as magical girls shatter their ideal views of a mahou shoujo, in the case of Kyoko as an example. Even Madoka became a Witch, perhaps as a statement of the flawed nature of humanity. But there was also a message of hope, Ultimate Madoka, a version of hope and sacrifice that defeated her Superwitch counterpart. This new entity born of the same metamorphosis process overcame the corrupting process of the system and developed into a much more mature Madoka. The reason for this new change is because Madoka made her wish that reflected her part as a sensible young adult, with the guidance of self reflection and wise counsel from others. The previous Madoka versions failed because they didn't reach their natural maturity when they made their wishes; they made their wishes with the mental view of an innocent child who didnt fully mature or understood the world. This new Madoka carries with her the hopes of magical girls, not just her own. However, as a responsible adult she must fade from the world and help many girls by taking their impurities with her. Madoka knows that she cannot abandon them, no matter how much she would miss her family and friends. This new Madoka has inhered a new sense of maturity and adult responsibility. The process of maturing into a better person requires Madoka to inherit the traits that comes with adulthood. It doesnt mean that Madoka becomes a better adult automatically nor a corrupt adult either. It just means that Madoka cannot grow into maturity without taking the elements of adulthood with her. In the series, adulthood can much as mean corruption as well as a new sense of guardianship. In this new sense, maturity and adulthood are not exclusive. One can become an adult without maturing (a witch), but one cannot mature without becoming an adult. One great example of Madoka's maturity is respecting the magical girls' wishes and dreams by not undoing their wishes or undoing their deaths. Another example is Madoka's acceptance of the need of a system to repair the damage done to the universe. Madoka's system is not perfect but she attempts to adjust it to make it more fair. Rather than radically alter the world to an "ideal version" (or paradise, as [[Kriemhild Gretchen]] tried), Madoka accepts the world as it is and tries to work within it. Madoka is in the process of growing into a fine woman, just like her mother Junko.<br />
*** Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the magical girls in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purest souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but of all people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts are blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the magical girls in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption(absorbing the greatest darkness) from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels; in the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults (people whose true heart are blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, as stated, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonates with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart (subconsciousness) is like (the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings alone are all that I live for, what will create my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
**** I would like to point out that there is a contradiction. If only the purity of Madoka's soul can save the girls. Then what does one make of the other girls? If Madoka is so pure and the reason she became a Witch was because of the corruption tainting her heart, then what changed in the end? If magical girls are not selfish, does that make them selfless? If so, then why couldn't they overcome their own corruption? One cannot be selfless and selfish at the same time, this in essence is a contradiction. To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective. Mami wanted to live but she regretted her choice because she didn't think of saving her family at the time. Sayaka wanted to heal Kyosuke because she felt sorry for him, but she also admits too late that she also wanted his love. This is why Kyubey knows that any wish will be corrupted, because it gets twisted by its own logic.<br />
***** The taint made them selfish, this means the taint blinds them from seeing hope, and thus they're only controlled by their grief and desperation. Madoka has selfish desires, but they vanished so quickly inside Madoka's heart because they're powerless, until Madoka is tainted by the darkness of the witch she had defeated(corruption thus pass from one to the other, and it conserves). It is not the girls are not selfish at all, it is that though they're basically selfless, and they're much more selfless than most people, they have a desire to protect their own hearts. When darkness blinds them, their dark side is magnified while their good side being blinded, thus they become witches. One can be selfless and selfish at the same time, we have both the nature of being selflessness and selfishness(desire to protect oneself), and when darkness blinds one, the two parts of us would be conflicting, and darkness may(or may not) win at the end. However, I do agree with this "To be selfish does not mean to be a bad person, it means that one has to meet the needs and demands of one self. This observation regarding selflessness is subjective.". <br />
*****Unlike Sayaka, Madoka probably gets corrupted not because her wish gets twisted. It is possible her wish only got twisted after she became a witch, not before it, so perhaps it is not causing her transformation into a witch. As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected.<br />
******This is contradictory, all wishes get twisted according to Kyubey, because it never achieves the results one ever wants or expects. This is part of why girls gent transformed into Witches, it is part of the metamorphosis. This is already stated in [[Episode 11]]. Unless a counter-proof is provided, this is highly unlikely. In the case of Kyoko, while her wish was her innocent attempt to help her father, she failed to realized that she did not ask for her father's consent or opinion. Instead he felt he was used without his consent and that the magic spell was forced upon him.<br />
***This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor. This is, as it has been said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
****An argument can be said that its message is also about the hope of humanity, that even beyond the shadow of corruption there is a veil of hope for those who strife for it. Madoka, instead of turning her back to a corrupt world, decided she wanted to save it. If the world is corrupt, then it is assumed that is beyond saving. Instead, Madoka sacrificed herself to change the world into a better place. The new world is not perfect, it is still plagued with flaws and corruption, but it is also a little bit fair and merciful. <br />
***** When it is said that the world is hurrying to its ruin, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, it simply means that without people's resonance with hope, without any change, the world will surely destroys itself. But there is always hope, as what Madoka has shown to viewers, the power of hope can shatter all the darkness, and change the rule of universe, which is what will save humanity.<br />
***Madoka's maturity, as it has been stated, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. The words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".<br />
****This observation is essential to understanding the anime, it underlines that the story is of "coming of age" in an imperfect world. However, the series is not an attempt to attack adulthood, but illuminate the flaws of a cruel world that children are forced to grow into. The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers.<br />
*****It is suggested that the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood".<br />
<br />
==Magazine Article==<br />
*[[NewType_2011-07#Madoka_Character_Description|July's NewType article]]<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Kazumi Magica==<br />
[[File:Kazumi madoka.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
* Madoka's silhouette appeared once during Juubey's explanation about Magical Girl system. She also makes a single-panel cameo in the extra pages in the first volume of the collected edition.<br />
<br />
==Madoka In Oriko Magica==<br />
<blockquote>''"How can you be so calm, Homura-chan? Why? Why are you only saving me? You have such an incredible power, Homura-chan!!" <br \ > "If you're going to abandon everyone and run away, then you shouldn't save me...!"'' - Madoka, [[Oriko_Magica#Chapter_5:_That.27s_what_I.27m_here_for|Puella Magi Oriko Magica, Chapter 5]].</blockquote><br />
* Madoka appears in Chapter 3, asking [[Homura]] to go home with her, along with [[Sayaka]] and [[Hitomi]]. She is well protected by Homura and isn't aware of Magical Girl system.<br />
* She appears in Chapter 4 for one page. She is shown with her friends Homura, Sayaka and Hitomi going out for snacks after school.<br />
* In chapters 5 through 7, Mitakihara Junior High was attacked by [[Oriko]] and [[Kirika]]. Oriko spoke to the school through the school's broadcast system, and seemed to give a threatening look to Madoka as she claimed she defeat a creature of ultimate despair that will descend upon them. As a witch's barrier forms over the school, Madoka is separated from her friends attacked by familiars. Homura saves her in time, but Madoka demands to know why she does not help the other students. Homura knows she cannot save everyone, and wanted to try to save Madoka anyway. Madoka apologized as Homura puts her in a protective barrier so familiars cannot attack her and left to defeat the perpetrators. Madoka escaped from the protective barrier created by Homura, and tried to help Homura with Sayaka and Hitomi. {{spoiler|Madoka was Oriko's real target. The white magical girl wanted to kill her before she could contract and become a magical girl herself, and then the most powerful witch ever. She was killed by Oriko at the very end, when they were dying Oriko used a shard of Kirika's witch body to impale Madoka through the torso. Once Oriko died and the witch barrier was lifted, Hitomi and Sayaka mourning for the dead Madoka became visible.}}<br />
<br />
==Madoka in Madoka Magica Portable==<br />
{|class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" style="width:100%;"<br />
|-<br />
!style="text-align:left; padding:10px;"|Warning, this section contains spoilers on game endings.<br />
|-<br />
|style="padding:10px; background:#fff;"|<br />
<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Gallery==<br />
<br />
=== Official art ===<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Kaname Anime Design.jpg|Initial design<br />
File:Madoka Kaname Original Design.jpg|Original character design by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Madoka morning pajama.png|<br />
File:Sleepover.jpg|Madoka having a sleepover with friends<br />
File:Madoka bd1 4koma.jpg|Translated [[Ume Aoki|Ume]] 4koma from Madoka BD volume 1<br />
File:BD 4 Ume 4koma TL.jpg|Translated Ume 4koma from Madoka BD volume 4<br />
File:Autographed illustration umeaoki.JPG|Autographed illustration by [[Ume Aoki]]<br />
File:Ume madoka kyubey.jpg<br />
File:Ume aoki dojinshi madoka.jpg|[[Ume Aoki]]'s Dojinshi "RKGKMDK"<br />
File:Apricot +6.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup.jpg<br />
File:Megami 02.2011 Pinup 2.jpg<br />
File:Madoka designs 1.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 2.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 3.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 4.jpg<br />
File:Artbook Madoka Drawing 5.jpg<br />
File:408.5.jpg|Animedia 2011-06<br />
File:Megami 04.2011 Madoka Pin-up.jpg|Megami magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:Nyantype 04.2011 Madoka Illustration.jpg|Nyantype magazine, April 2011.<br />
File:BD 1 Scan 8.jpg|from the Blu-Ray Volume 1 Booklet.<br />
File:MadokainKazumi.png|Madoka as drawn by Takashi Tensugi, the artist for [[Kazumi Magica]].<br />
File:MadokainOriko.png|Madoka as she appears in [[Oriko Magica]].<br />
File:Newtype 07 2011 p18 p19.jpg<br />
File:Madohomu prodsketch.jpg|Early production sketch of Madoka with Homura.<br />
File:PN 83.jpg<br />
File:Kisseymadokasketch.jpg|Goddess Madoka from the [[Puella Magi Production Notes|production notes]].<br />
File:Madoka magica anthology 1.jpg|Madoka Magica Anthology 1<br />
File:Ultimate Madoka settei information 6 official art BD 6.jpg|Ultimate Madoka by Ume Aoki.<br />
File:PN 09.jpg<br />
File:PN 56.jpg<br />
File:PN 57.jpg<br />
File:PN 58.jpg<br />
File:PN 59.jpg<br />
File:Animedia_2012-02_03.jpg|Animedia magazine, February 2012. Madoka's ring and fingernail mark as a magical girl are visible.<br />
File:618624.jpg<br />
File:20111112_3d97ad-2.jpg<br />
File:574169-1.jpg|Notice how Madoka's Soul Gem ring and fingernail marking are visible.<br />
File:Chibi_Madoka.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Screenshots ===<br />
==== Madoka as a regular girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Op_ep6_vs_ep5.jpg|Madoka x Madoka in the opening animation<br />
File:Madoka night clothes.jpg|Closeup of sleepy-eyed Madoka in the OP<br />
File:Madoka sleep on QB.gif|Sleepy Madoka<br />
File:Madoka is shy.gif|Madoka is shy<br />
File:Madoka family.gif|Madoka's family<br />
File:Madoka everyday life.gif|Madoka everyday life<br />
File:Madoka_ Sayaka_Hitomi.gif|Madoka & friends<br />
File:Madoka wakes up.gif|Madoka wakes up<br />
File:Madoka_Sayaka_Hitomi_playing.gif|Madoka Sayaka Hitomi playing<br />
File:Kaname-madoka.jpg|Madoka Kaname<br />
File:Screenshot madoka fascinating.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-loveletter.PNG|Madoka daydreaming about getting a love letter.<br />
File:Madoka-ponytail.jpg|Madoka with a ponytail<br />
File:Madoka crying.gif|Madoka crying<br />
File:Madoka received a gift.gif|Madoka received a gift <br />
File:Madoka is upset.gif|Madoka is upset<br />
File:Madoka_Sketch.jpg|A self-portrait. Drawing is one of Madoka's hobbies.<br />
File:Madoka hands.jpg|Closeup of Madoka's hands in [[Episode 10]] (TBS version), Timeline 1, when she is walking [[Homura]] to the nurse's office. She is known to be contracted by then. Note no Soul Gem ring or fingernail mark.<br />
File:Madoka tied up on the wheel of time.gif|Madoka tied up on the wheel of time<br />
File:Kaname_Madoka.png<br />
File:340798-madoka.jpg<br />
File:Ep6_madoka_long_hair.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000108.jpg<br />
File:464082.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000272-1.jpg<br />
File:Puella110_000043.jpg<br />
File:Puella111_000292.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a Magical Girl ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-dodging.jpg|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka-dodging.gif|Madoka dodging wheels<br />
File:Madoka hug Homura.gif|Madoka hug Homura<br />
File:Madoka-mahou-shoujo.jpg|Madoka Kaname, Total Badass.<br />
File:Madoka hands 2.jpg|Madoka is purifying [[Homura]]'s Soul Gem in [[Episode 10]]'s Timeline 3. Again, note no fingernail mark.<br>[[:File:Madoka is purifying Homuras Soul Gem.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokamercy.jpg<br />
File:Madoka-soul-gem.jpg|Madoka's soul gem<br />
File:Madoka.png<br />
File:Tumblr_lk2ccuqv5G1qb7j0bo1_1280.jpg<br />
File:Puella112_000091.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h50m38s0.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m14s99.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m45s157.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m48s189.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m54s246.jpg<br />
File:Vlcsnap-2011-12-08-16h51m59s46.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magika-10-mbs-x264-1920x1080-mp4-00001.jpg<br />
File:Mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-10-large-06.jpg<br />
File:Madoka transformation_PSP.gif|Madoka's transformation in PSP GAME<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Madoka as a witch ====<br />
<gallery captionalign="left" position="center"><br />
File:Madoka-grief-seed.png|Madoka/Kriemhild's grief seed.<br />
File:Madoka-witch-first.jpg|Madoka's witch transformation in the second timeline.<br />
File:Kaname witch form power.jpg|Madoka's witch form.<br />
File:Madoka the Ultimate Witch.jpg|A closeup of the face of the ultimate witch form of Madoka born as a result of her wish in the story timeline.<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Fanart ===<br />
{{fanart}}<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Superfriends.png|Many experts believe something sort of like this happened after the final episode of Madoka Magica ended<br />
File:Madoka fuels the Universe.png|<br />
File:Aoki_ume_madoka_doujin_art_highrez.png|Fan coloring of Ume's work<br />
File:Madokami art front back.jpg|Madoka as the Goddess/concept of Hope<br />
File:Fan creation Madoka Soul Gem.jpg|Fan jewelry creation of Madoka's Soul Gem with a pink nebula inside (?) or a pink rose bud (?)<br />
File:MadoKami gundam.jpg|<br />
File:Scary madokami.jpg|You shall have no other gods before Me. That includes that wannabe Haruhi.<br />
File:MadoKami and Charlotte.jpg|Madoka rescues Charlotte.<br />
File:Madoka evolution magical girl.jpg|Madoka has evolved into MadoKami! <br />
File:It's tough to be a goddess.gif|No Mahou Shoujo Predator? But they are practically born into the hunting tradition!<br />
File:Madoka learning how to befriend.png|Madoka learning from the master.<br />
File:Meet the time traveler.jpg|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=36lSzUMBJnc Meet the Goddess]<br />
File:Namacha I Won't Allow That.png|MadoKami already abusing her Goddess powers, and we are fine with this.<br />
File:Madoprince homuprincess.jpg<br />
File:Chibimadokami.jpg|MadoKami died for our HHHNNNNNGGGGG~!<br />
File:Madoka pixel mugen.gif<br />
File:MadoKami all powerful fanart.jpg|''Thou Shall Have no Other Anime gods Before Me.''<br />
File:Madoka ;p fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka afro op fanart.jpg<br />
File:Madoka Ben-to.jpg|"And thus begins the "that character sounds like Madoka, imagine if she was the one to say that" adventures with Aoi Yuuki's characters.<br />
File:Madokami bow arrow aiming posture fanart.jpg<br />
File:AeFLl-1.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
=== Miscellaneous ===<br />
<br />
==== Madoka's bow ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Madoka Bow.jpg|Rendition of Madoka's bow; it looks like a branch with a rose on its end<br />
File:Madoka-bow-firing.PNG|Madoka's bow in action<br />
File:Madoka-firing.jpg|You're gonna get befriended!<br>[[:File:Madoka shooting one arrow.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:Madokas-arrow.jpg|A close-up of Madoka's arrow<br />
File:Madoka-multishot.jpg|Madoka using Multi-Shot<br>[[:File:Madoka multi shots.gif|Animated version]]<br />
File:PN 13.jpg|Sketches from production notes.<br />
File:PN 14.jpg<br />
File:PN 22.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==== Aoi Yuki ====<br />
<gallery><br />
File:BLT Aoi Yuki.jpg|Aoi Yuki. BLT magazine, 2011-6.<br />
File:Animedia 05.2011 Aoi Yuki DATA FILE.png|Aoi Yuki [[Animedia_2011-05|Data file]].<br />
File:Aoi yuki madoka.jpg<br />
File:Seiyuu aoi yuuki 2008 article picture.jpg<br />
File:Magical Girl Otona Anime 08.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Kriemhild Gretchen]], Madoka's witch form.<br />
* [[GetNavi 2011-12|GetNavi 2011-12]]<br />
* [[Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)|Magical Girl Magazine (Otona Anime)]]<br />
* [[Animedia_2011-05#Aoi_Yuki_.28Madoka.29_Data_File|Aoi Yuki's Data file]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*{{pixiv_tag|鹿目まどか}}<br />
*{{booru_tag|danbooru|kaname_madoka}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Characters]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28786User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T06:02:54Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
<br />
Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SayakaMadoka&diff=28785User talk:SayakaMadoka2011-09-29T05:52:13Z<p>SayakaMadoka: Blanked the page</p>
<hr />
<div></div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28777User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:46:41Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. A wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality '''in this case'''(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end after all(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: What you are proposing goes against what Kyubey already stated, and for that reason it goes against the whole idea of the series. Let me set up an example...<br />
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You example proves nothing. In your example, you can say that the wish is twisted, but it just doesn't prove anything that I said is wrong.<br />
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I don't think I have said anything that goes against what Kyubey stated.<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that I have never said at all(or even the things that I have denied), this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28776User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:44:57Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. A wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality '''in this case'''(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end after all(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: What you are proposing goes against what Kyubey already stated, and for that reason it goes against the whole idea of the series. Let me set up an example...<br />
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You example proves nothing. In your example, you can say that the wish is twisted, but it just doesn't prove anything that I said is wrong.<br />
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I don't think I have said anything that goes against what Kyubey stated.<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that I have never said at all(or even the things that I have denied), this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28775User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:44:04Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
<br />
I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
<br />
Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
<br />
PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. A wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality '''in this case'''(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end afterall(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: What you are proposing goes against what Kyubey already stated, and for that reason it goes against the whole idea of the series. Let me set up an example...<br />
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You example proves nothing. In your example, you can say that the wish is twisted, but it just doesn't prove anything that I said is wrong.<br />
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I don't think I have said anything that goes against what Kyubey stated.<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that I have never said at all(or even the things that I have denied), this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28774User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:39:54Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. A wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality '''in this case'''(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: What you are proposing goes against what Kyubey already stated, and for that reason it goes against the whole idea of the series. Let me set up an example...<br />
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You example proves nothing. In your example, you can say that the wish is twisted, but it just doesn't prove anything that I said is wrong.<br />
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I don't think I have said anything that goes against what Kyubey stated.<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that I have never said at all(or even the things that I have denied), this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28773User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:38:43Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
<br />
Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. A wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality '''in this case'''(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: What you are proposing goes against what Kyubey already stated, and for that reason it goes against the whole idea of the series. Let me set up an example...<br />
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You example proves nothing. In your example, you can say that the wish is twisted, but it just doesn't prove anything that I said is wrong.<br />
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I don't think I have said anything that goes against what Kyubey stated.<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that<br />
I have never said at all, this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28772User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:36:32Z<p>SayakaMadoka: This is an important edit</p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
<br />
Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
<br />
But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
<br />
Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
<br />
What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
<br />
OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
<br />
If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
<br />
That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
<br />
Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
<br />
PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
<br />
Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
<br />
This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
<br />
If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
<br />
Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
<br />
I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
<br />
I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
<br />
It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
<br />
It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
<br />
What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. A wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality '''in this case'''(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
<br />
Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
<br />
'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
<br />
-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: What you are proposing goes against what Kyubey already stated, and for that reason it goes against the whole idea of the series. Let me set up an example...<br />
<br />
You example proves nothing. In your example, you can say that the wish is twisted, but it just doesn't proves anything that I said is wrong.<br />
<br />
I don't think I have said anything that goes against what Kyubey stated.<br />
<br />
Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that<br />
I have never said at all, this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28769User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:27:35Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
<br />
Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
<br />
I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
<br />
At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality '''in this case'''(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: What you are proposing goes against what Kyubey already stated, and for that reason it goes against the whole idea of the series. Let me set up an example...<br />
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You example proves nothing. In your example, you can say that the wish is twisted, but it just doesn't proves anything that I said is wrong.<br />
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I don't think I have said anything that goes against what Kyubey stated.<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that<br />
I have never said at all, this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28768User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:26:28Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
<br />
If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
<br />
Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality '''in this case'''(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
<br />
-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: What you are proposing goes against what Kyubey already stated, and for that reason it goes against the whole idea of the series. Let me set up an example...<br />
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You example proves nothing, in you example, you can say that the wish is twisted, but it doesn't proves what I said is wrong.<br />
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I don't think I have said anything that goes against what Kyubey stated.<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that<br />
I have never said at all, this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28767User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:17:31Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
<br />
I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
<br />
Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
<br />
But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
<br />
Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
<br />
What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
<br />
OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
<br />
If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
<br />
That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
<br />
Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
<br />
PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
<br />
Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
<br />
This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
<br />
If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
<br />
Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
<br />
I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
<br />
I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
<br />
It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
<br />
It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
<br />
What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality '''in this case'''(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
<br />
Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
<br />
'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
<br />
-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that<br />
I have never said at all, this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28766User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:12:43Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
<br />
Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
<br />
I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
<br />
At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
<br />
However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
<br />
I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important '''in some cases''' cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that<br />
I have never said at all, this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28765User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:09:01Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
<br />
-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that<br />
I have never said at all, this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28764User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:08:50Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
<br />
Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
<br />
If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
<br />
That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
<br />
Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
<br />
PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
<br />
Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
<br />
This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
<br />
If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
<br />
Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
<br />
I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
<br />
I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
<br />
It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
<br />
It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
<br />
What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
<br />
'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
<br />
-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are actually mostly agreeing with me(though you can't realize that), but you were always claiming that I have said something that<br />
I have never said at all, this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28763User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:07:50Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
<br />
I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
<br />
At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
<br />
However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
<br />
I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
<br />
Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Please, I beg you, read every single word I wrote this time, what I've seen from what you said is that you are mostly agreeing with me, but you were always claiming that I have said something that<br />
I have never said at all, this seemed to be the biggest source of disagreement. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28762User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:04:10Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequence of the wish) many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
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<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
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:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
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[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
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==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28761User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:03:56Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this matter(consequnce of the wish) many times.<br />
<br />
-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28760User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:02:50Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
<br />
But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
<br />
Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
<br />
What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
<br />
OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
<br />
If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
<br />
That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
<br />
Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
<br />
PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
<br />
Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
<br />
This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
<br />
If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
<br />
I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
<br />
I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
<br />
It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
<br />
It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not always be the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
<br />
Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
<br />
'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this many times.<br />
<br />
-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28758User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T02:02:16Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
<br />
Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
<br />
I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
<br />
At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not be always the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded), if it doesn't get twisted, there are other ways for the wish to cause distortion anyway.<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28757User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T01:59:45Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, '''so there is a possibility that, in some cases,''' this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not be always the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded).<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this many times.<br />
<br />
-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28756User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T01:59:19Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to create a great distortion of reality, so there is a possibility that, in some cases, this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not be always the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded).<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28755User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T01:58:33Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happen, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to make the reality twisted, so there is a possibility that, in some cases, this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not be always the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded).<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28754User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T01:57:05Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different ways to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happens, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to make the reality twisted, so there is a possibility that, in some cases, this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not be always the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded).<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
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<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
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[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
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==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28753User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T01:56:12Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
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It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
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It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the '''content of the wish itself'''('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different way to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happens, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to make the reality twisted, so there is a possibility that, in some cases, this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not be always the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded).<br />
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Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
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'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this many times.<br />
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-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28751User talk:Mutopis2011-09-29T01:54:44Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
<br />
But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
<br />
Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
<br />
What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
<br />
OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
<br />
If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
<br />
That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
<br />
Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
<br />
PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
<br />
Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
<br />
This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
<br />
If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
<br />
Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
<br />
I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
<br />
I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. <br />
<br />
It's not absurd, the wish caused the reality to be twisted, that always happens(I don't know why you're talking like I have said this is not true, I simply haven't said that). If the content is not twisted at the beginning but at the end, it's totally OK. This is not very important, because wishes are, as you said, something that is definitely going to twist the reality. But the thing is how it twists the reality? By twisting the content of the wish or by twisting something else?<br />
<br />
It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule.<br />
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What do you mean by "Madoka is never in danger because her wish won't be twisted"? She's fighting witches and facing the greatest darkness, how can she not be in danger? And I have stated many times that '''I have never said her wish won't cause the reality to be twisted''', I'm only saying that the content of the wish itself('''If I wish I can have a cake, then it is possible that the cake doesn't taste badly, you have agreed with this already''') ''' perhaps''' wouldn't be twisted at the''' beginning'''. The wish is definitely not something normal, and the hope that is concentrated by the wish is going to be compensated by the desperation that it's going to cause(Or you can say it has already been caused at the beginning, these are just different way to express it), thus the reality is distorted, but the reality is not distorted because of the cake is not delicious or anything about the cake. In this case, the only thing the wish does is that it makes you a Puella Magi(or maybe other events that has nothing to do with the cake), this is the only manifestation of the twist of reality(it is assumed that it is impossible to get a wish from Kyubey without being a Puella Magi, so this distortion of "making the girl a Puella Magi" always exist). As long as the reality is twisted and it's caused by the wish, it's all right. Since the content of the wish, though most of the time it may be twisted, if it is not twisted, then the wish can cause the distortion in other ways(making the girl a puella magi itself is a great distortion of reality caused by the wish). There are various ways the wish can cause distortion: twisting the content of the wish itself, making the girl a Puella Magi so she has to fight witches, causing unexpected events... If the content of the wish itself doesn't get twisted at the beginning, then as long as "the girl becomes Puella Magi"(which is definitely going to happen) and other events happens, the wish is still going to get the reality twisted. In fact, "the girl becomes Puella Magi" alone is enough to make the reality twisted, so there is a possibility that, in some cases, this is the only thing that happens. As for the content of the wish, it's very likely that it is going to be twisted at the end(maybe when the girl becomes a witch), but this may not be always the case, because as I have stated, the content of the wish itself isn't so important(important most of the time, but the possibility of that it is not important cannot be excluded).<br />
<br />
Quote: This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible...<br />
<br />
'''I have never said that a wish is without consequence(I have no idea why you think I have said this)''', please read what I wrote carefully, I have talked about this many times.<br />
<br />
-[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28705User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T03:36:33Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
<br />
Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
<br />
I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
<br />
At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
<br />
However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted(until the end), and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28704User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T03:26:24Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted, and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twists the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish(content of it) gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28703User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T03:24:40Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted, and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka, and not in every lap, but only some laps.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twist the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28702User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T03:23:48Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
<br />
Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
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I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted, and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
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I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twist the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28701User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T03:22:56Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
<br />
Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
<br />
OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
<br />
If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
<br />
That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
<br />
Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
<br />
PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
<br />
If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
<br />
I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted, and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
<br />
I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twist the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28700User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T03:22:32Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
<br />
At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
<br />
I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
<br />
Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
<br />
But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
<br />
Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
<br />
What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
<br />
OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
<br />
If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
<br />
That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
<br />
Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
<br />
PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
<br />
Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
<br />
This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
<br />
If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
<br />
Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
<br />
I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted, and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Quote: ...and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states.<br />
<br />
I agree with this, and I don't think this conflicts with anything I've said here. All wishes may get twisted at the end, I didn't disagree with this. But as I have said, maybe they're twisted after the girl is corrupted, not causing the girl to be corrupted. Maybe in some cases, the wish twist the reality by making the girl a puella magi, and then the girl gets corrupted, and then the wish gets twisted. I have also said that according to different definitions, you may still want to say that the wish gets twisted before the corruption, but as I stated, they're just different descriptions of the same truth. <br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28696User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T02:38:51Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
<br />
Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
<br />
I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
<br />
At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
<br />
However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
<br />
I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
<br />
This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
<br />
I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
<br />
Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
<br />
So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
<br />
Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
<br />
What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
<br />
OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
<br />
If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
<br />
That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
<br />
PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
<br />
Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
<br />
This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
<br />
As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
<br />
However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
<br />
Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
<br />
I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted, and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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OK, I guess it's hard to convince you then. If we disagree with each other, then we should simply write what we think right on the speculation section, I won't delete anything written by you without telling you about it. I don't think I have no evidence because I think if you say I have no evidence then your evidence isn't solid either(at least for me).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28695User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T02:33:58Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
<br />
Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
<br />
I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same...<br />
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I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted, and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28694User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T02:31:44Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error.<br />
I have never claimed that they're the same.<br />
I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted.<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28693User talk:Mutopis2011-09-28T02:28:03Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
<hr />
<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"<br />
Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko?<br />
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Oh no, I said it is only a possibility, means it might be true for some girls, I don't mean it is true for every girl.<br />
Now do you agree?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28642User talk:Mutopis2011-09-27T14:54:57Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for '''whether it is possible that''' the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
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[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
<br />
==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadokahttps://wiki.puella-magi.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutopis&diff=28641User talk:Mutopis2011-09-27T14:50:01Z<p>SayakaMadoka: </p>
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<div>I was just passing by and took a little glimpse at your impressive KyoSaya gallery and... well. I'm not a yuri fan, I'm just a normal human and I did not happen to step upon the mysterious Yuri Goggles. But I kinda understand you guys - but there's one thing I don't understand. Why the heck on all those doujins Kyouko is in the "male" role? I mean, Sayaka seems more of such tomboy, with her short hair and all... I know Kyouko has stronger personality, but...<br />ehm...<br />OK, I tried to imagine confident Sayaka in suit and blushing Kyouko in wedding dress and it just didn't feel right :D<br />But maybe it's worth asking - do such "reverse" KyoSaya (or should I call it SayaKyo) doujins exist? --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 19:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Kyouko is the experienced, independent woman who has an obvious interest in Sayaka, and Sayaka is the confused teenage girl who's playing hard to get, and Kyouko beat Sayaka up in a fight, so it's only natural that she'd take the lead. Kyouko has a history of being direct and even overly aggressive, while Sayaka can't even bring herself to confess her feelings. Of course, the real test is genderswapping. Kyouko would be a perfectly normal male character. In fact, she'd fit right into any typical shoujo romance as the bad boy whose hidden heart of gold can be saved by the heroine. Sayaka, on the other hand, acts like a real teenage girl. Man-Sayaka x Kyouko would be worthy of comparisons to Natsuru, while Kyou-kun x Sayaka is straight out of any romance novel. Disclaimer: I'm not into KyoSaya, I just came here to speculah. --[[User:KM|KM]] <br />
:What [[User:KM|KM]] said. Plus Kyouko as a Bad Boy is so easy to identity. And with the whole Sayaka as a mermaid, it is easy to see Kyouko as the "Bad Boy Prince" coming to her rescue. I am not aware of any doujins as of yet but I am keeping an eye on it to see what they are making. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
::You'll probably find Sayaka in that position if you look for MadoSaya. It is rather amusing, if we consider her position essentially reverses with Kyouko. Just another proof that everything is relative, I guess. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 23:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[:File:Beware_of_flying_buckets.png]] and [[:File:SHAFTing_comic.png]] - what comic is this and where can I find more of it? Also, where did you find a typeset version of [[:File:Super dimentional girl homu homu.png]]? I could only find Japanese original on danbooru with translation in annotations... --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:It's probably wild-words... Oh wait, you mean the typesetted comics? There's a few of us that been making them, and you can almost always find a copy of it somewhere on the [http://boards.4chan.org/u/res/1041718 /u/ general threads]. - [[Special:Contributions/76.172.48.24|76.172.48.24]] 12:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:got them from /u/, there is also someone from [http://lazyedits.wordpress.com/ lazyedits] that takes translations from danbooru and edit them. But most of my stuff I always get them from /u/ --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Question: among your fanwork dives, have you ever found anything with Sayaka fighting Oktavia? --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 09:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:No, most of the Sayaka/Oktavia arts that include these two usually reflects Sayaka's breakdown and loosing to Oktavia like this one [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/903352/armor-blue-blue_hair-bubble-closed_eyes-crossed_ar] or sometimes it just an art of two of them [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/895678/armor-blue_dress-blue_eyes-blue_hair-blue_legwear-] but I dont think I have ever seeing Sayaka fighting her witch form. I do remember seeing Madoka fighting a gretchen but she was in [http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/901494 human form] (I think she was more of Dark Madoka) --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Oh :( I guess Madoka artists prefer to further the clues given by the anime than to reimagine it. Then again, I guess that's perfectly normal.<br>It's just something that's been bothering me for a while. The transformation from Puella to witch seems nearly instantaneous, it's hard to believe that the witch forms from nothing just like that. Therefore, I think it's very likely that, just as a girl's powers are determined when she contracts, her witch form must be as well: future experiences may affect certain detail, but not completely change it, as seen with Sayaka. And thus, if such a thing lives inside a Puella, I'd like to imagine that they'd put up a fight, even if destined to lose, even if only for a second, and even if only inside their subconscious/soul, to prevent it from taking control of their soul.<br>Hmm. Gotta post this speculah somewhere. Anyway, it'd be great to see some fanart of that :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 17:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Freaking shot in the dark, but does anyone know if there was a Yes We Can Madoka version? I could swear I remember seeing one... Anyone? --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:Nope, but [http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/ce/31/2023979/original_image.png here's a lame attempt at one]. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::Ok, that just depressing, she looks sad in it... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: :( Well, in my defense, I am pretty sure the shots you uploaded weren't made with obamiconme.com. I just lack any skills to do something like that by hand. --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 00:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::: That's ok, would try find it later --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Left you a message at MAL, can you check it please? :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
:I did --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Sorry to bother you again with this again, but, well, you're the man, when it comes to artwork :)<br>Can you tell me if you've seen [http://myanimelist.net/signature/KiraMustDie.png the art that was used for this] around? Thanks :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Hmm. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLgUSEC2FY My last production might be relevant to your interests], although... romance isn't really my forte :P --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I have a question, I would like you to answer. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Scary_madokami.jpg Did you make this picture? If yes do you allow this http://pie5525.deviantart.com/art/madokami-245484455, if not then I`ll just take it off. If you didn't make it, who made it, I have to like give confirmation. Thank you~--[[User:YouHasBeenEaten|YouHasBeenEaten]] <br />
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Preeeeeety sure the reason you liked that Agnus Dei was because of Madokami, but nonetheless, as an Ace Combat fanboy, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU I gotta sell my version] :) --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 12:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Nice to see a fan of the yuri vibes between my two favourite Madoka characters. I must say, Sayaka's lack of reaction to someone who clearly cares for her a lot is only matched in weirdness by her huge reaction to someone who didn't appear to give a crap about her at all. Maybe if Kyoko hit people with a violin rather than a spear, things would be different. [[User:Bersayaka|Bersayaka]] 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
:If she did that, she would have to fight off Sayaka to be able to finish her job killing witches, worst, Hitomi may actually have a violin fetish and would try to steal Kyoko too! --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I deleted the following part from characterization in the "Kaname Madoka" page<br />
"...However, Kyubey knows that Madoka's motives would be selfish in nature so it would twist her wish.<br />
Which is why Madoka realizes that her thinking was incorrect in the beginning and contemplates what to do to save Homura and her town in Episode 11. Madoka goes from wanting to be selfless for selfish reasons to wanting to be selfless for selflessness itself. By removing Madoka's selfish desire from her wish, she literally removes her self and her physical presence as a consequence."<br />
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I don't think Madoka had wanted to be selfless for selfish reasons.<br />
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At least, that is just a opinion, and it is not generally approved, so it shouldn't appear on a wiki page.<br />
Also, I made some other edit on that page, if you don't think they should be edited, please talk to me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 07:59, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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It's OK if you put them in the speculation section, thank you for doing that for me, I couldn't do that myself because I was sleeping.<br />
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However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption. When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult, since most adults are called adults only because they're essentially corrupted. In a sense, you can say Madoka's maturity is the maturity of a person with the purist soul, but that wouldn't be necessary, and we should avoid using the words that are associated with "maturity", "adult" is one of them. Madoka is the avatar of hope, she does everything because of the pure hope and good will, not because of some inferior conscious thoughts of responsibility, but a realization of her heart, the core of her soul, her subconsciousness, which is deep inside her.<br />
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I'm not going to delete that since it's in the speculation section, but allow me to add what I said in the second paragraph in the speculation section as well.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 17:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I disagree with what you said. Madoka is not becoming someone like her mother, he mother is a good woman, but she's corrupted as well, only the soul of a young girl like Madoka, can be really pure. None of those girls are truly selfish, everyone, including the people who are very selfless, have selfish desires, but that doesn't make them selfish people. All the puella magi in the anime, are the ones whose nature is much more selfless than most people, they have the purist souls. The corruption doesn't just refer to the corruption of girls of adolescence, but all the people. It's not a metaphor of young girls, but of the whole humanity, every single human being on earth. This anime shows us that, the so called "maturity" in our world, is essentially corruption. People were naive children with pure souls, filled with hope, selfless love and compassion at the beginning, but they were eventually corrupted to become the so called "adults", who are essentially minions, witches or people whose true hearts blinded. The ones with purest souls, like the puella magi in the anime, they're the ones who are taking the greatest damage and corruption from the evil of the society, and they're the ones who are corrupted into witches (As metaphorized in the Bible, the arch-devils are fallen angels. In the anime, the purer the soul is, the stronger the magical power). The ones whose souls are not so pure, would eventually become the common adults(people whose true heart blinded) or the minions of the witches. Also, I have said, conscious thoughts of responsibility is inferior, it is only a rough projection of hope and selfless love deep inside our subconsciousness, it is not to be followed. Madoka's heart resonant with hope, that's the power that leads her, not any conscious thoughts - only what's deep inside us is true, in a sense, all words are fake, since they can never completely describe what our true heart(subconsciousness) is like(the last sentence in the ending song Magia, "My feelings are all I rely upon, what creates my life, is this, wish.", it is the feeling that is to be followed, not any conscicous thoughts).<br />
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This is a very strong, beautiful and heart-touching metaphor, I hope you can see it. This is, as I said, one of the most important metaphors in the anime, which reveals us the corruption of the heart of humanity, and, behind it, a world hurrying to its ruin.<br />
If you can't see what I see, it's OK, I'm not going to edit anything on that page now(since they're in the speculation section), if you do see what I see however, I hope to edit it in the way I would like to.<br />
--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:17, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Madoka's maturity, as I said, is different from the maturity of becoming an adult(which is essentially being corrupted), it is the true maturity. Also as I've already said, we should avoid using words associated with "maturity", like "adult", "adulthood", these words are of negative meaning in the anime(and in fact, essentially, in our world as well). We should merely say that she "grows up".--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:30, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 21:42, 25 Sep 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you for your respecting me though you disagree with me.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 00:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
It has been edited.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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All wishes gets twisted, but it might not be twisted because of the selfishness, and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean. Since Madoka hasn't become a witch in the first lap, I will delete that statement, it has been some time since I watched the 10th episode so I didn't remember.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, do you agree with my other statements? I want to know whether I have convinced you or not...--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Have you watched a movie named "Equilibrium"? It is a very good movie, I think maybe you will like it since you like this anime. I watched it yesterday.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, thank you very much for proof reading what I wrote, as you may have already noticed, English is not my first language... My ability to write in English is quite limited now, but it is going to be improved bit by bit.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 16:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Did Kyubey say that the twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches? Or did he just say that all wishes gets twisted? And if twisted wishes caused the puellae magi to become witches, is it true that the wishes are twisted because of selfishness? Can you find any evidence? <br />
This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted"<br />
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I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?<br />
And please give some replies to the other things that I said here. --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka."<br />
That's true, that's why I said maybe most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true(that the girls get twisted because of the twisted wishes), there is no proof for its certainty isn't it?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"<br />
I'm not talking about Madoka, I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 02:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy."<br />
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Yes, that's true. But think about it, there is a possibility of that, the person becomes unhappy in the end ''only because of that'' the wish had turned her into a Puella Magi and she has to face the darkness and corruption, and it is the darkness and corruption that the Puella Magi has to face turned her into a witch. In this case, the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality).--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality."<br />
You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that". Please read carefully.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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"If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish."<br />
That is exactly the case I said "the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)". So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the ''content'' of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before she became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote:<br />
"Quote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"".<br />
I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --Mutopis 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi, thus she has to face darkness and corruption. Do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 03:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish."<br />
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But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted.<br />
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Quote: "Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only."<br />
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What I said: "it is possible that the only thing '''it''' does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi", the second "it" refers to "wish", this sentence doesn't conflict with yours, since making wish does distort reality, it's just that it only distorts reality by making the girl a Puella Magi.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi" this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear."<br />
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OK, I'll say "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" then.<br />
'''It is possible that''' "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" can have nothing to do with the content of the wish as we have both stated, is it true? If so, then do you agree with me that "'''it is possible that''' the '''content''' of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, they might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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I don't think Kyoko was selfish at all. She made a decision that lacks consideration, but since she wasn't doing it intentionally, you can't say she's selfish, that's different from the case of Sayaka. Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. She is totally innocent, and not "intentionally being selfish", which means she's essentially not selfish(no selfish desire was driving her to make such a wish), the tragedy, for Kyoko, is merely an accident.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: "I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place."<br />
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If your definition of selfishness not only includes intentional selfishness but also unintentional selfishness, then I agree with you. But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different(this does not indicate that I don't agree with you, I simply wish you to notice that). --[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 05:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Let's talk about it tomorrow, it's 11pm now in Canada.<br />
Though you don't completely agree with me, we have reached some agreements after all, I think. If this is true, then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page. If not, then it's fine, just do nothing about it.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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Quote: The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example.<br />
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That's what I said some time ago: "I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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In fact, I simply didn't claim that "all the wishes would be twisted" is not true...<br />
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Here is what I said about it "This is what is in the "Episode 11" page: "He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility of that, maybe very often it is the case, but he didn't say it is always the case. There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 01:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)"<br />
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You can delete these repeated parts after you read them.<br />
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PS: This is my last reply for today, because it's late, if I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply tomorrow.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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If you have read what I wrote carefully, you would see that none of my claims are conflicting with what is shown in the anime(I don't understand why you're saying that what I said is contradictory to what is shown in the anime, it is just not). When I'm indicating a possibility, my evidence is not weaker than yours(neither of us have solid evidence, I don't need any counter-examples, because I was claiming that you didn't have any solid evidence to prove your statements in the first place). I don't think you have understood what I wrote, since some of the logic of my sentences are a bit of delicate(I don't know if this is the right word to use).<br />
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Quote: "But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are a slave to the wish, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch"<br />
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This does sound like you agree with me(if you read what I wrote carefully, you will see this). I totally agree with the first part. For the second part, you have described it as "the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch", the reason that your description is different from mine is simply that you have define the twist of wish in a different way than I have - you said the "wish itself was twisted", in my words it was reality that was twisted, because I consider "wish" the "content of wish", and the definition doesn't include the consequence of it(which is in this case, making the girl a Puella Magi), which is in your definition, included. So the meanings of our descriptions are equivalent, it is just that we used different ways to express them(though I would prefer my own description).<br />
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As for whether it is possible that the wish was twisted after the girl was corrupted, we need to have clear definitions of "wish" and "corrupted"(the definitions are rough, technically, you may want to call them "precise descriptions"). I define "wish" as the "content of the wish"(which as I stated doesn't include the consequence of it, such as the girl being turned into a Puella Magi), and "girl is corrupted" is defined as the "girl's heart becomes dark", which means her heart is broken and blinded by darkness, hope is gone and the heart is filled with desperation.''' With these two definitions''', I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted, which in your way to say it(with your different definitions), is the twist of wish happened before the corruption, because you are not referring "wish" to the "content of the wish", but the "content of the wish" and "the consequence that it would cause". In another way to say it, we can also say that they happened at the same time, because at the same time the heart gets dark, the twisted content of the wish is revealed(that makes sense too, doesn't it?). It's like if a person is killed by the bomb, is he killed at the same time the bomb explodes? Or after it explodes? It depends on how we define "explosion" and "being killed". In you way to say it, you would say the person is killed before the bomb explodes, because the bomb was set before it explodes, and it will surely explode at a point that it will kill the person(It's sort of like "You are already dead" in Fist of the North Star). All these descriptions are different descriptions of the same thing.<br />
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However, it is all right if you still disagree. Since I believe I have said everything I needed to say and it's just the matter of whether you understand what I've said or not, I'm not going to say anything more about it right now, because if I say anything, it's likely that it's going to be repetitive to what I've said. <br />
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If I see anything specifically that I want to edit on the Madoka page, I will post it on the Madoka talk page.--[[User:SayakaMadoka|SayakaMadoka]] 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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== Relevant to your interest? ==<br />
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<gallery><br />
file:brokyouko1.png<br />
file:brokyouko2.png<br />
file:brokyouko3.png<br />
</gallery><br />
:Gender bender, Kyuko as a guy/prince. Nice, I still prefer yuri. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRC2_jBDXo&feature=feedlik Better?]<br />
::: yes! :3 --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
::: That some cute it makes me want to barf rainbows xD --[[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 22:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
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==2chan chart==<br />
<gallery><br />
File:2ch sales chart comparing Madoka to Bake.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
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[http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/08/26/seiyuu-fans-weep-as-emiri-kato-can-finally-smile-again/ 2chan can really give you mixed emotions].<br />
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==Moefication of Philosophers==<br />
[http://aya.shii.org/2011/09/17/european-philosophers-become-magical-anime-girls/ I be damn...]--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
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[[Talk:Philosophical Observations|Talk:Philosophical Observations]]</div>SayakaMadoka