Difference between revisions of "Speculah talk:Puellae Magi Don't Age"

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Considering that both Mami and Kyouko were visibly younger when they contracted, Kyouko was wearing modern clothes in the flashback, and neither Kyouko nor Mami knew very much at all about the mechanics of being a Magical Girl, I believe this theory can be safely written off as "Proven Wrong."
 
Considering that both Mami and Kyouko were visibly younger when they contracted, Kyouko was wearing modern clothes in the flashback, and neither Kyouko nor Mami knew very much at all about the mechanics of being a Magical Girl, I believe this theory can be safely written off as "Proven Wrong."
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:Not quite. The first time we see Kyouko as a magical girl, she already had the look we see today. The images were from her childhood before she contracted. They did now knew anything about the mechanics, well, simply because nor Kyubey nor anyone else told them. [[User:BrickBreak|BrickBreak]] 02:03, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
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My personal belief is such:
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*Kyubey has outright stated the bodies are just meat puppets, and as long as the Soul Gem is intact, the body can be repaired.
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*If you can repair your body from any state whatsoever as long as the Soul Gem is intact, then it goes without saying you can regenerate lost limbs and the like.
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*Arguably, you could make a brand new body if you needed, however the magic needed to do that would probably mean you'd need to find a Grief Seed very, very quickly.
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Therefore, a Puella Magi is immortal in that they can just regenerate their body as long as they have the magic to do it. The real problem here is that, even if a Puella Magi doesn't age, so far we've seen that they have a life expectancy of "a couple of weeks or months" before a Witch inevitably kicks their ass. So it's possible no Puella Magi will ever live long enough to test that theory.
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-supporting that theory: homura healed her eyes with magic
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[[file:Official_art_kyouko_family.jpg|Official art from Megumi magazine]]
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[[file:Kyouko flashback.jpg|thumb|Same clothes as official art.]]
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This official art for Kyouko's family makes it clear both her and her little sister are attired in modern clothing...notice the jeans, hoodie and sneakers, plus the modern style dress, socks and shoes of her little sister.  I really think this speculah should be deleted or vastly edited down as the evidence is squarely against it. --[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 20:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
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:I fail to see why. The speculah isn't about how old Kyouko is, but about whether or not Puella Magi could be said to be immortal due to their zombie-like state. So far we've gotten a lot of evidence that suggests that Puella Magi could in fact fix or alter their bodies, as well as conserve them perfectly. Whether Kyouko is really a century old or not is really an aside and should probably be its own mini-speculah than part of the global immortality one.
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::The "evidence" is based almost entirely on Kyouko and every time there's a point of theory made in favor of the speculah, it's overturned by facts against it.  First of all, Kyouko doesn't speak in an "archaic" dialect.  Ask any Japanese speaker.  Second, the only "Victorian" style that you ever see, are cardboard cut-outs which were clearly a SHAFT stylistic choice.  The hoodie you see Kyouko wear in the flashback is exactly the same as the official art I posted (see above and to the right), which means the rest of her outfit is equally modern and this was before she became mahou shoujo.  So Kyouko is definitively from a modern time.  School isn't evidence of anything related to her age.  Pretty much nothing I'm seeing about Kyouko supports the speculah.  At the very least, the speculah should be revised to reflect the facts.  --[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 20:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
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:::I agree, but again, this isn't really what this speculah is supposed to be about. You'd be free to move all the 'Kyouko's age' stuff off this page and onto another speculah page, which you would then be free to mark as proven wrong, or at least, highly implausible (because jeans and hoodies were not invented that recently, it's still vaguely possible for it to be true). But right now you're basically arguing about whether or not we've been to the moon on a page about whether the moon is made of cheese or not.
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::One more correction:  The fake storyboard was not made by the "series creators" and should be removed.  It was made by this person: http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=manga&illust_id=17167336 who if you look up their profile and their art, is clearly not Gen, Shinbo, Ume or anyone else could be considered a "series creator."  I don't know who that person is, but at most she's only a staff person and more likely no more than your typical fanartist.  Plus, this art was clearly made for comedic value and isn't suppose to represent anything realistic in the anime.  -[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 21:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
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::::The idea of speculah is all well and good, but at least use the discretion of removing things that are obviously proved wrong, and definitely remove factual errors like stating the series creators made some piece of fanart etc.  Things like Homura repeated the timelines over again or the ending being far in the future are what I would consider speculah that while there's no proof for it, there's no solid counter-proof either. Those are fine.
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Perhaps in general we need some guidelines here on speculah, if anyone wants to chime in.  -[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 21:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
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::::Man, I have nothing to say if you really think that a young girl would be dressed in jeans, a hoodie with pockets like that, and sneakers in anything other than modern times.  -[[User:Randomanon|randomanon]] 21:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
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:::::"Modern times" is relative. 1980s? Maybe even 70s. Jeans and hoodies would be perfectly fine for those times. --[[User:KFYatek|KFYatek]] 10:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
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==Sayaka as a dead zombie==
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I am having trouble with this... technically Sayaka is a dead zombie, but at the same time she is not, more like her body is dead (decomposing) but her soul is still intact on the Soul Gem, so technically she is alive... also, if Sayaka were to use her magic we could speculate she could regenerate her cells back to life (sadly we dont know if this is possible, but since this is magic we are talkgin about)... but this also puzzles me, if we think the brain as a receptor to the Soul Gems command/thoughts, then this is odd because [http://science.howstuffworks.com/body-farm1.htm brain cells are the first to die] within minutes. So we have to assume that the flesh/body acts more like a puppet of the Soul Gem, sending signals to the muscle tissue, instead of commands to the brain, unless Sayaka's Soul Gem fixed her brain (more or less) or revived her brain cells... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 14:11, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
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:Here's my take on it: you're overthinking it. It's MAGIC. The Soul Gem grants control of the body regardless of what state it's in, and it's also what keeps the body from dying, hence the fact that even if a Puella Magi avoids fighting, her Soul Gem will still darken over time. Presumably it's possible for a Puella Magi to stop her Soul Gem from sustaining her body, in which case with the effects of the magic gone it might start rotting/decaying faster than a normal body would. Either ways, it's magic. It doesn't have to make too much scientific sense. [[Special:Contributions/70.81.159.144|70.81.159.144]] 16:47, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
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::The problem with saying, IT'S MAGIC! sounds like the lazy way to explain things... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:03, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
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:::Magic seems to be general-purpose reality warping, so I'm guessing they could either use the brain as an interface or control the body mechanically, depending on its condition, what feels more natural to the girl, or what she knows how to/realizes she can do. (Similar to how Sayaka didn't realize she could block pain, so she felt pain like she expected, but when she wanted to block it, it worked that way instead) I'd like to see the full details of those scenes translated, since it seems strange that the girl with self-healing powers couldn't regenerate. Was her soul gem simply very low on power when she revived, and did she turn into a witch immediately afterwards? In Oriko, Kyoko couldn't reattach her severed limbs, but Yuma could, and in the anime Kyoko expected Sayaka to be out of commission for a long time healing naturally, but Sayaka just got right back up, even though Kyoko is highly experienced and skilled while the other two were rookies with specialized healing powers. Presumably a non-specialist just doesn't have enough power to do that without turning witch or using a bunch of grief seeds. Unfortunately, it's entirely possible that Sayaka would take one look in the mirror and instantly despair and witchify without having the common sense to try to heal herself first. Hopefully someone with the game can fully record that section so we can find out. (If it was such a case of honto baka gonna honto baka, I want a Homura button that lets me put a "Sayaka's surprise out-of-season Halloween Party dress rehearsal, no peeking" sign on the door before Kyousuke shows up) [[User:KM|KM]] 08:35, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
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==Latest addition==
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Should we add this part on this page:
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"In the [[Madoka Magica Portable]] game, when Sayaka's body is separated from her Soul Gem, her body goes into the stages of decomposition. This seems to indicate that their magical bodies do experience cell deterioration, indicating the possibility that body cells do grow and age with time. However, this opens up alot of other questions regarding the nature of the Soul Gem and the magical body of the girls. If we are to assume that the Soul Gem sends commands to their body, we can either speculate that the brain acts as a receptor to receive commands, or that the muscle tissues in their body react to the commands from the Soul Gem. When Sayaka's body starts to decompose, the brain cells are the first to die and the muscle tissues go into rigor mortis[http://science.howstuffworks.com/body-farm1.htm]. If this is correct, then it seems odd that when Sayaka's Soul Gem is returned to her decomposed body, Sayaka wakes up without noticing anything unusual. Did the Soul Gem repaired Sayaka's brain cells to allow its connection to the brain? Did it reverse the rigor mortis of the body muscle? Is it possible that the Soul Gem regenerated Sayaka's dead cells (if so, could this mean it can reverse the aging process as well?). Or perhaps Sayaka is trapped within a dead body and now she is a magical dead zombie. Kyubey has stated that magic can fix their broken/damaged bodies (but we dont know if there are limits to it), making it more convenient to fight and hunt witches. So, we have to assume that since Sayaka has healing regenerative powers, perhaps it would have required a lot of magic to fully restore Sayaka's dead body (after all, her magic is still not strong). Of course, the shortest yet more unsatisfying answer would be: IT'S MAGIC."
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It doesnt really answer anything, it just creates more questions... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 03:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
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Perhaps a mahou shoujo's body is just like a normal body but just an 'enhanced' version where it can be repair to a 'certain' extend. When a soul gem is removed from it, the whole body shut down. The brain cell starts to die off and the body began to decay as it detects the body is no longer in use. Just like an ordinary person who died will start to decay as soon as the brain dies. Therefore in this case, I would assume that the restoration process takes longer when it is left to regenerate by itself and much faster when magic is used to restore them. When the soul gem is placed near the body again, the soul gem uses some of the magic to restore any vitals like Sayaka's brain cell, organs and muscles. These regenerated first as they are the main components of body in comparison to the rest. That should explain why her outer is still in decay state (since Sayaka did not notice her outer appearance and did not repair her outer look with magic). But, as Mutopis mentioned it creates more questions than answer... Maybe the whole thing wasn't really planned (soul gem restoring the body), just created to create a scenario for Sayaka to make the situation worst till Kyousuke would be afraid of her. The whole magical girl's body could not die is just left for others to interpret how it is going to be. [[User:Demonicslayer|Demonicslayer]] 10:53, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
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I'm not sure about the "dying forever" part... Kyubey only says that if the if they're separated for two days, the body and soul will become completely separated, leaving the body to rot.[[User:Ykm|Ykm]] 15:15, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:15, 29 March 2012

Considering that both Mami and Kyouko were visibly younger when they contracted, Kyouko was wearing modern clothes in the flashback, and neither Kyouko nor Mami knew very much at all about the mechanics of being a Magical Girl, I believe this theory can be safely written off as "Proven Wrong."

Not quite. The first time we see Kyouko as a magical girl, she already had the look we see today. The images were from her childhood before she contracted. They did now knew anything about the mechanics, well, simply because nor Kyubey nor anyone else told them. BrickBreak 02:03, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

My personal belief is such:

  • Kyubey has outright stated the bodies are just meat puppets, and as long as the Soul Gem is intact, the body can be repaired.
  • If you can repair your body from any state whatsoever as long as the Soul Gem is intact, then it goes without saying you can regenerate lost limbs and the like.
  • Arguably, you could make a brand new body if you needed, however the magic needed to do that would probably mean you'd need to find a Grief Seed very, very quickly.

Therefore, a Puella Magi is immortal in that they can just regenerate their body as long as they have the magic to do it. The real problem here is that, even if a Puella Magi doesn't age, so far we've seen that they have a life expectancy of "a couple of weeks or months" before a Witch inevitably kicks their ass. So it's possible no Puella Magi will ever live long enough to test that theory. -supporting that theory: homura healed her eyes with magic Official art from Megumi magazine

Same clothes as official art.

This official art for Kyouko's family makes it clear both her and her little sister are attired in modern clothing...notice the jeans, hoodie and sneakers, plus the modern style dress, socks and shoes of her little sister. I really think this speculah should be deleted or vastly edited down as the evidence is squarely against it. --randomanon 20:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I fail to see why. The speculah isn't about how old Kyouko is, but about whether or not Puella Magi could be said to be immortal due to their zombie-like state. So far we've gotten a lot of evidence that suggests that Puella Magi could in fact fix or alter their bodies, as well as conserve them perfectly. Whether Kyouko is really a century old or not is really an aside and should probably be its own mini-speculah than part of the global immortality one.
The "evidence" is based almost entirely on Kyouko and every time there's a point of theory made in favor of the speculah, it's overturned by facts against it. First of all, Kyouko doesn't speak in an "archaic" dialect. Ask any Japanese speaker. Second, the only "Victorian" style that you ever see, are cardboard cut-outs which were clearly a SHAFT stylistic choice. The hoodie you see Kyouko wear in the flashback is exactly the same as the official art I posted (see above and to the right), which means the rest of her outfit is equally modern and this was before she became mahou shoujo. So Kyouko is definitively from a modern time. School isn't evidence of anything related to her age. Pretty much nothing I'm seeing about Kyouko supports the speculah. At the very least, the speculah should be revised to reflect the facts. --randomanon 20:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree, but again, this isn't really what this speculah is supposed to be about. You'd be free to move all the 'Kyouko's age' stuff off this page and onto another speculah page, which you would then be free to mark as proven wrong, or at least, highly implausible (because jeans and hoodies were not invented that recently, it's still vaguely possible for it to be true). But right now you're basically arguing about whether or not we've been to the moon on a page about whether the moon is made of cheese or not.
One more correction: The fake storyboard was not made by the "series creators" and should be removed. It was made by this person: http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=manga&illust_id=17167336 who if you look up their profile and their art, is clearly not Gen, Shinbo, Ume or anyone else could be considered a "series creator." I don't know who that person is, but at most she's only a staff person and more likely no more than your typical fanartist. Plus, this art was clearly made for comedic value and isn't suppose to represent anything realistic in the anime. -randomanon 21:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
The idea of speculah is all well and good, but at least use the discretion of removing things that are obviously proved wrong, and definitely remove factual errors like stating the series creators made some piece of fanart etc. Things like Homura repeated the timelines over again or the ending being far in the future are what I would consider speculah that while there's no proof for it, there's no solid counter-proof either. Those are fine.

Perhaps in general we need some guidelines here on speculah, if anyone wants to chime in. -randomanon 21:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Man, I have nothing to say if you really think that a young girl would be dressed in jeans, a hoodie with pockets like that, and sneakers in anything other than modern times. -randomanon 21:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
"Modern times" is relative. 1980s? Maybe even 70s. Jeans and hoodies would be perfectly fine for those times. --KFYatek 10:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Sayaka as a dead zombie

I am having trouble with this... technically Sayaka is a dead zombie, but at the same time she is not, more like her body is dead (decomposing) but her soul is still intact on the Soul Gem, so technically she is alive... also, if Sayaka were to use her magic we could speculate she could regenerate her cells back to life (sadly we dont know if this is possible, but since this is magic we are talkgin about)... but this also puzzles me, if we think the brain as a receptor to the Soul Gems command/thoughts, then this is odd because brain cells are the first to die within minutes. So we have to assume that the flesh/body acts more like a puppet of the Soul Gem, sending signals to the muscle tissue, instead of commands to the brain, unless Sayaka's Soul Gem fixed her brain (more or less) or revived her brain cells... --Mutopis 14:11, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Here's my take on it: you're overthinking it. It's MAGIC. The Soul Gem grants control of the body regardless of what state it's in, and it's also what keeps the body from dying, hence the fact that even if a Puella Magi avoids fighting, her Soul Gem will still darken over time. Presumably it's possible for a Puella Magi to stop her Soul Gem from sustaining her body, in which case with the effects of the magic gone it might start rotting/decaying faster than a normal body would. Either ways, it's magic. It doesn't have to make too much scientific sense. 70.81.159.144 16:47, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
The problem with saying, IT'S MAGIC! sounds like the lazy way to explain things... --Mutopis 02:03, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Magic seems to be general-purpose reality warping, so I'm guessing they could either use the brain as an interface or control the body mechanically, depending on its condition, what feels more natural to the girl, or what she knows how to/realizes she can do. (Similar to how Sayaka didn't realize she could block pain, so she felt pain like she expected, but when she wanted to block it, it worked that way instead) I'd like to see the full details of those scenes translated, since it seems strange that the girl with self-healing powers couldn't regenerate. Was her soul gem simply very low on power when she revived, and did she turn into a witch immediately afterwards? In Oriko, Kyoko couldn't reattach her severed limbs, but Yuma could, and in the anime Kyoko expected Sayaka to be out of commission for a long time healing naturally, but Sayaka just got right back up, even though Kyoko is highly experienced and skilled while the other two were rookies with specialized healing powers. Presumably a non-specialist just doesn't have enough power to do that without turning witch or using a bunch of grief seeds. Unfortunately, it's entirely possible that Sayaka would take one look in the mirror and instantly despair and witchify without having the common sense to try to heal herself first. Hopefully someone with the game can fully record that section so we can find out. (If it was such a case of honto baka gonna honto baka, I want a Homura button that lets me put a "Sayaka's surprise out-of-season Halloween Party dress rehearsal, no peeking" sign on the door before Kyousuke shows up) KM 08:35, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Latest addition

Should we add this part on this page:

"In the Madoka Magica Portable game, when Sayaka's body is separated from her Soul Gem, her body goes into the stages of decomposition. This seems to indicate that their magical bodies do experience cell deterioration, indicating the possibility that body cells do grow and age with time. However, this opens up alot of other questions regarding the nature of the Soul Gem and the magical body of the girls. If we are to assume that the Soul Gem sends commands to their body, we can either speculate that the brain acts as a receptor to receive commands, or that the muscle tissues in their body react to the commands from the Soul Gem. When Sayaka's body starts to decompose, the brain cells are the first to die and the muscle tissues go into rigor mortis[1]. If this is correct, then it seems odd that when Sayaka's Soul Gem is returned to her decomposed body, Sayaka wakes up without noticing anything unusual. Did the Soul Gem repaired Sayaka's brain cells to allow its connection to the brain? Did it reverse the rigor mortis of the body muscle? Is it possible that the Soul Gem regenerated Sayaka's dead cells (if so, could this mean it can reverse the aging process as well?). Or perhaps Sayaka is trapped within a dead body and now she is a magical dead zombie. Kyubey has stated that magic can fix their broken/damaged bodies (but we dont know if there are limits to it), making it more convenient to fight and hunt witches. So, we have to assume that since Sayaka has healing regenerative powers, perhaps it would have required a lot of magic to fully restore Sayaka's dead body (after all, her magic is still not strong). Of course, the shortest yet more unsatisfying answer would be: IT'S MAGIC."

It doesnt really answer anything, it just creates more questions... --Mutopis 03:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps a mahou shoujo's body is just like a normal body but just an 'enhanced' version where it can be repair to a 'certain' extend. When a soul gem is removed from it, the whole body shut down. The brain cell starts to die off and the body began to decay as it detects the body is no longer in use. Just like an ordinary person who died will start to decay as soon as the brain dies. Therefore in this case, I would assume that the restoration process takes longer when it is left to regenerate by itself and much faster when magic is used to restore them. When the soul gem is placed near the body again, the soul gem uses some of the magic to restore any vitals like Sayaka's brain cell, organs and muscles. These regenerated first as they are the main components of body in comparison to the rest. That should explain why her outer is still in decay state (since Sayaka did not notice her outer appearance and did not repair her outer look with magic). But, as Mutopis mentioned it creates more questions than answer... Maybe the whole thing wasn't really planned (soul gem restoring the body), just created to create a scenario for Sayaka to make the situation worst till Kyousuke would be afraid of her. The whole magical girl's body could not die is just left for others to interpret how it is going to be. Demonicslayer 10:53, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the "dying forever" part... Kyubey only says that if the if they're separated for two days, the body and soul will become completely separated, leaving the body to rot.Ykm 15:15, 29 March 2012 (UTC)