User talk:SayakaMadoka: Difference between revisions

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could you please put it on the speculation section then. As part of the observation Madoka seems to waver to do the right thing. However, stated in Episode 11 any wish she makes will be twisted by the nature of the wish. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:21, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
:please restore the link to philosophical observation. While it is true it is speculation, it is part as an attempt to understand the character of Madoka. This is why we have a section regarding speculation --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
:In the future if you think there are some need of changes, do not delete without at least consulting why. We want to keep as much information within the page, even if it is speculation. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
::I will go ahead and put the deleted sections in speculation since you didnt do it... I guess I will have to do it myself... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)


quote: "However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption." When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult,"
That is correct when we are talking about witches it is true, but we have to remember the part when Madoka was having a heartfelt conversation with her Mother, in which Junko was telling her that the world of adults was difficult and hard in which making "mistakes" was much more difficult and how children had it easy because mistakes were much more easy to make and heal. Then in Episode 11 we see Madoka is growing and she is understanding that she is stepping into the world of adult responsibility, that she cannot run away from her fears. Madoka is leaving the world of childhood adolescence and taking the mantle of adulthood but unlike witches, she carries with her hopes and dreams that are not immature in nature but very mature. You can be hopeful and mature and still carry it with you to the world of adulthood. Keep in mind, the new world is not perfect, is not an idealized version of a typical mahou shoujo fantasy world, but it is a better world thanks by Madoka's sacrifice. Madoka knowing the responsibilities and needs of this new world tries to keep it in valance. Madoka is taking all of that responsibility as it was stated by Mami's spirit in the final episode, that is one huge responsibility for a child. Madoka wants to emulate her mother and become a better adult and in doing so, rather than become a witch, she became a woman. Madoka also reasserts her adulthood by purifying the witches. She doesnt take away their hopes and dreams, nor does she prevents their death. Like an understanding adult she respect their wishes and purifies their souls so they can be taken wither her. Madoka is not as much as preventing witchfication but taking their burdens and impurities to help them pass on. So Madoka is lending them a helping hand, to all of them, for all eternity. In a way, as you stated it is no differing from the witchification process where the metamorphosis still transformed Madoka, but that doesnt mean adulthood is wrong, it just means that the girls during the second stage of growing became witches because of curses and despair, in Madoka case during the second stage of curse and despair Madoka defeated it by still retaining her purity but also by retaining her new sense of adult responsibility. Madoka willingly accepts the consequences of fading from the world. Something hard to do but she knows it needs to be done to help valance the world. Dont forget, Madoka did still became a Witch in Episode 12, but she also became the embodiment of hope and she defeated it. This is a show of a girl growing from childhood adolescence into the early stages of adulthood. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Keep in mind that there are a lot of different opinions regarding the Anime series. What we see is subjective and we are trying to bring up all of our views so we can allow different opinions. We do not want to make anyone coming to be anime feeling unwelcome. I do see it as a beautiful anime, are you implying something? Also, please if you want to make big changes (like deleting chunks of information) consult in the talk section of the page, otherwise it would look like you are purposely deleting sections just to uphold your own views. The views on this board are not just for one person but for everyone. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
''"I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first."''
:Dully noted, just wanted to make things clear. I hope you dont take offense. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
I would like to thank you of your insight, your statement reminds of the philosophical and theological debate regarding gnosticism. After this, I will try to dabble with it and see if it can be applied to my philosophical essay. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:35, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Please, do not use "I" on your statements. Fix that please, we are trying to write articles, otherwise it sounds like opinion pieces. Also Delete '''"I think you are beginning to see what I see, I agree with that "The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers."， but I do think the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood"."'', at this point that is a repeat, perhaps you can maybe fix the statement. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
quote: "Unlike Sayaka, Madoka gets corrupted not because of that her wish gets twisted(it may only get twisted after she become a witch, not before it, it is not causing her to become a witch). As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected. Also, Madoka was turned into a witch in the first lap, and it has nothing to do with the twist of her wish at all(her wish to save Amy)."
:the sound of this sentence does not sound right, it sounds off. Also, please try to at least bring up evidence, this sounds more like an opinion, not just speculation. Keep in mind there is a body of evidence in the series, including the issue of wishes getting twisted, if you can find evidence to back up your statement that is ok, but if you cannot then try to write it in the form to indicate that this is just a possible theory that requires evidence. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 12:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
''"and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean."''
:You need to at least bring an example or prove it, otherwise this is just an opinion. There is nothing in the series as an example. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 20:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:I fix the sentencing for you because it wasn't clear and I cannot wait; if you want to change it, go ahead. Also, please try to bring up some examples to back up your evidence, otherwise at least try to change your sentencing otherwise it sounds like opinions with no claims for it. We do not want to fill it into opinion only. Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted, I saw no evidence of this. There are plenty of examples for it but because we dont have solid evidence it is still speculah at the moment, (exampke, episode 10 where Homura was losing to Walpurgis Night. We do not know what was the wording for Madoka's wish but we suspect it was along the lines of defeating Walpurgis Night or protect the world, she became  wish and her wish got twisted. The twisting always happens before that causes the transformation because of dissatisfaction. The Madoka witch born from Madoka's wish to protect instead became a Witch that is destroying the world. The wish got twisted, always and it is stated by Kyubey and we have to assume <u>those are the words of the creators</u> until it can be disproved or a contradiction can be proven, until then it is considered fact. Find some evidence. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 20:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: "There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?"
:In that situation Madoka didnt have a wish, Mami suggested Madoka to make a wish for cake since Madoka didnt have anything to wish for. Madoka just wanted to become a girl of justice. Just like Mami. Remember, Madoka's desire was to become a magical girl like those anime shows. If Madoka had made a wish for cake, that would not have been "her real wish", her real wish would had been to become a girl of justice and once she learned the truth it would only cause her despair or "regret her wish for cake" because she sold her soul for cake thus making her "unhappy" (thus making Madoka regret her wish and become unhappy). It is not the wish itself but their deeper desires of the wishes. For example Sayaka's true desire was not to heal Kyosuke but to get his love, Kyoko's true desire was not to turn her father into a mind manipulator but to help him. The wishes are a conduct or tool that starts the process for the witch transformation, however, it is the unfulfilled desire that is the driving force of despair that causes unhappiness. Take Mami's case, she got to live because of her wish, she got what she wanted at the time but her family died. Driven by guilt because she didnt think of saving them first, she became unhappy. She got what she wanted but then she regretted her wish. It is not just the wishes, it is their true desires and the consequences of their unhappiness that causes them to become witches. As for Madoka's wishes, we dont know why she didn't become a Witch in the original timeline, in the second she became a witch because she used all of her magic, in the fourth one Homura could not defeat walpurgis night so it is assumed that Madoka wished for the power to kill that walpurgis, we dont know the wording of Madoka's wish but to defeat that witch to save the world, Madoka's wish guaranteed the world's destruction in the process for the power to destroy Walpurgis was overwhelming that it drained Madoka of her magic. Does Madoka wanted the world destroyed? No, and whatever Madoka's wish was instead it created something that she didnt want. At the end all wishes get unfulfilled, it never grants happiness, or it fails to meet ones desire. That is the reason why wishes get twisted by logic, it never gives what one person truly desires, or if the person gets it, it never makes them happy.--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch"''
Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka. And as for Madoka we never get the wording of the previous time line wishes. We dont know why Madoka didnt become a witch in the original timeline. As stated before we dont know the wording that helped her to defeat Walpurgis Night but according to Kyubey she used all of her magic so she became a Witch but if her wish was to save the world or the town, it backfire. In this series, many of the girls once they get their wishes end up either regretting it or becoming unhappy. Their wishes dont get twisted after becoming witches, it gets twisted because it never makes them happy. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:26, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"'' No, you are missing the point. Madoka could have made *any wish*, but remember what she told Mami? She could not think of any wish, so Mami told her to wish for cake. Was that Madoka's true wish? No, because that was not her real wish, that was Mami's suggestion. After wishing for cake, the wish would still be twisted because Madoka would later regret it once she learned she sold her soul to become a witch. You saw how afraid Madoka was once she learned the truth. I am not saying once Madoka makes a wish for cake suddenly the cake tastes bad. I am saying any wish one makes wont create happiness in the end but regret. Unhappiness and regret is the key here. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"That's true, that's why I said maybe may be most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true"''. A maybe is not an evidence, you have to prove it. It's true that maybe there could be an exception IF it was shown in the series with some other girls as exceptions, but we dont see any other girls, only these ones. At this point you are only stating an opinion. You can speculate as long as you can provide something. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted)."''
: ~ Kyubey: "No matter the desire, if it's something irrational, then it will <u>always</u> distort reality in some way if it comes true. Then it's an obvious conclusion that it will always create the worst outcome . If you want to call that the result of that action "betrayal," then having the wish in the first place would be the mistake."
:You are saying that even a simple wish like "cake" cannot be twisted? According to Kyubey the act of getting ones wish is irrational. It distorts reality. What Kyubey states is that as a consequence somehow, someway, the person making the wish would: not get what they wanted and become unhappy, get what they wanted but regret it, or regret making a wish at all. As I stated wishing for cake (or any similar wishes) will get twisted in the sense that after making the wish if the person becomes unhappy in the end from it or regretted it, then it got twisted because their wish didn't make them happy. I am not saying that if one makes a simple wish like cake and then they dont get the cake they wanted, or the cake got bad taste etc. I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
''"the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it
makes her a Puella Magi"''
:True if it was an insignificant wish like cake, but it still does cause regret or unhappiness. As I said it doesnt matter if it is a simple wish. If wishing for cake made you unhappy, not because you didnt get cake, but because you are forced to fight wishes, ergo that cake didnt made you happy, ergo you regret making a wish, ergo the wish got twisted. In that case it is true the content doesn't matter, it still doesn't change the fact that the act of wishing still caused regret, and the person regrets making a wish or the wish didnt made them happy. If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 03:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)"''
:I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality. Healing Kyosuke, distorts reality. Saving Mami, distorts reality. Giving Kyoko's father the magical power to make people believe him (or close to brainwashing powers), distorts reality. Magic distorts reality, the wishes distorts reality, Kyubey has the power to distort reality... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 03:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"''".
:I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the content of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before her became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption"''
:No, you are not getting my message. The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish. For example if you look in episode 10, in the timeline that Madoka became a witch. She got the power to defeat Walpurgis, remember what Kyubey say? Madoka became a witch because she used all of her energy, not because she has to face the darkness alone.
Quote: ''"So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi,"''
:Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"But the wishes themselves(the content of the wishes, you said "Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish.") may or may not be twisted before the girl becomes a witch, it is the reality that is twisted."''
:When reality gets twisted, the wishes get twisted. Tried to understand, the moment reality gets changed that is when the wishes will get twisted as a result of changing reality. Kyubey states this is a result, this is what is was stated in the Anime. Think of of it is as reality punishing the girls for interfering with reality itself. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:10, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"it only distort reality by making the girl Puella Magi"'' this sentense makes it sound that only becoming a puella magi is teh only distortion. But you are saying that the wish is also a distortion. Then you need to write "Making a wish and becoming a puella magi" is the only distortion, otherwise it = becoming a puella magi is the only distortion. Make it clear. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:10, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"Also, there is a matter of selfishness that you haven't replied me yet. If the wishes are twisted, it might be twisted because of uncertainty or reasons other than selfishness, do you agree with this?"''
:Selfishness is not the only reason, but as Kyubey say all wishes get twisted because they are irrational (and the act of making a wish is irrational), so perhaps the expectations are too high along with it. As I stated it is because of regret, unhappiness, etc (which means the wish is to blame). In Mami's case was because she felt guilty she didnt think about saving her family first, that's guilt as I stated before (one can make a case that Mami was being selfish for only thinking of herself at the time). In Sayaka's case is because it was unrequited love. One can make a case that her wish was selfish, that Sayaka was expecting Kyosuke's love in return of healing his hand. But does that make Sayaka selfish? It depend in the definition of selfish, for example if we say "I want all the riches in the world" that is extreme selfishness, but if we say "I want that boy to love me" then it is a natural desire for the self (making it a bit selfish but not extreme), but because Sayaka expected Kyosuke to love her after healing him, it could be said that was selfish on her part to expect something in return. Others would argue that it was  more like a failure to create happiness or fulfillment from the wish (an expectation failure). But let us say that Sayaka was selfish, because Sayaka never consulted Kyosuke first about his opinion on being healed, and instead expected his love in return as a form of obligatory payment, then that means she wanted a reward from the beginning making it a selfish wish "I healed Kyosuke so he would love me". But as I said, in Sayaka case is a bit complicated because we see all sorts of emotions coming from her. Perhaps it was selfishness on her part or perhaps it was because Sayaka's desire was not fulfilled that made her a witch. In either case it did not made her happy, it made her unhappy. In my opinion, Sayaka really did feel sorry for Kyosuke but she also loved him and she was expecting Kyosuke to love her after healing him in return. Because Kyosuke never loved Sayaka back this made Sayaka to fall deeper and deeper into despair, this also caused her to fight with Madoka, that also caused more despair, Sayaka's first despair caused more despair because she couldnt get what she really wanted. I dont think selfishness is involved in all cases, each case needs to be reviewed on its own before we arrive to a conclusion. Take Kyoko's case, she wished for people to believe her father, and he got the power to make people to believe him. Was that selfish? Yes, why? Because Kyoko did not ask her father for the permission to get changed or be cursed with that magical power. Imagine people made fun of you because your hair color looks weird, you have a friend or a family member who feels sorry, so they decided to wait for you to go to sleep and dye your hair in secret, they didnt ask for your permission first. The new color makes you look great but you are angry, because someone made a decision for you without asking first. Kyoko felt sorry for her father, that is true, but by making that wish that resulted in Kyoko's father to be altered physically (or in this case magically) was selfish. Of course, Kyoko didnt get any reward in return, true but we have to remember because no one believed Kyoko's father she was going hungry too, some would say Kyoko was not just motivated because she felt sorry for her father, but because she felt hunger. Of course, you can also make a case that Kyoko's sister was going hunger too (the whole family was). In many of this cases it is really complicated to narrow down the intention of the character, sometimes because we have to take a look alot of information first. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"Kyoko hasn't expected her father to be unhappy about it at all, that's why she made that wish. It is not the case that, though she knew her father may or may not approve of her making such a wish, and she ignores her father selfishly and made the wish. "''
:I am not saying selfish in a bad connotation of personal gain or selfish for ignoring a father's request. But selfish for not thinking how others would feel in the first place. Kyoko never considered her father's feelings first, she thought he would be ok with it. If you make decisions about other people without consulting them, even though you think they would be happy, they will accuse you of being thoughtless and selfish because you are doing it to make yourself feel better. Some people would say that is selfish, because she was thinking about how making her father happy would make Kyoko happy. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 05:44, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"But please do notice, intentional selfishness and unintentional selfishness are totally different"''
:True they are different but still the same, a lie or a white lie is still a lie no matter the good intentions behind it. No matter how unintentional it was it still caused unhappiness because Kyoko failed to consider the feelings of another person other than herself. I guess we are splitting hair, but this is why there are different views. You are not going to convince me to see it otherwise because that is how I interpret it (as well as many fans)... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''""it is possible that the content of Madoka's wish hasn't been twisted until she has been turned into a witch"''
:Ok. Let me make it clear. In Madoka's case in the first timeline she dies with no change into a Witch. In another she used all of her magic so she became a witch or Homura killed her before that happened, before Homura killed her Madoka told Homura that she regretted her choice. But other than that we have no information regarding the context of everything. So far we cannot tell for sure what happened in those cases for certain but we do know that in one case Madoka expressed regret to her wish (so Madoka's wish did not make her happy). Then there was the case when Madoka made a wish to defeat Walpurgis Night, but we dont know the context of the wish, instead we are informed by Kyubey that Madoka used all of her magic so now she is a Witch that will destroy the world. We can say that perhaps the wish set up Madoka before she even got to defeat Walpuris Night, the wish knew that by making Madoka super-powerful she would use all of her magic thus dooming the world. The same world she wanted to protect as a result of her wish. Second, I am not going to question Kyubey's words until there is enough proof to say otherwise, if Kyubey says all wishes get twisted, then they get twisted. No buts, if, or otherwise, the moment one makes a wish the wish becomes twisted, because reality made it so based on the wishes own logic. This cannot be argued until the anime says otherwise or brings a counter-example. We have to go with what the series is saying, we cannot add words into the anime or otherwise we are making Urobuchi into a liar. We have to work with what we have. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"then maybe you would want to make some edits to what you have written on the speculation section of the Madoka page."''
:I am not the only one editing the pages. You can edit the pages, but remember: provide evidence, follow the fats. No opinions or at least try to underline that those are opinions <u>not</u> evidence. Make it arbitrary and do not add stuff that is not there. Otherwise the other editors will expect you to make the proper corrections. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"I didn't claim that her wishes never get twisted, I simply claimed that the twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch"''
:As I said, it is possible that the wish made Madoka super-powerful knowing full well she would use all of her magic to defeat walpurgis night because there was no other way about it (walpurgis is a super powerful witch), the wish was already twisted before she transformed into a witch, the wish set up a trap for Madoka. The wish betrayed Madoka before the event. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:17, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''""He(Kyubey) refuses to admit his own fault in the cruelty of the magical girl system, claiming that the wishes of girls in question are to be blamed as any wish can be twisted by its own logic." This doesn't mean it is always the twisted wishes that cause the girls to become witches, this only indicates a possibility"''
:Again, if you are not happy, or if you regret, etc. then it is the wishes fault (or the act of wishing itself), because reality made sure that the wish will never bring happiness. Or the wish will cause a situation that makes it unfulfilled... the act of wishing in itself is a violation of reality itself so reality punishes the girls. Even if you wish for cake, and that cake doesnt make you happy, doesnt change you into a wish, but you regret making a wish in teh fist place, then the wish itself was still twisted (or the act of wishing). There are situations that a wish could directly or indirectly cause someone to become a witch but the fact remains that all puella magi experience despair because of the wish (remember, Kyubey is turning them into witches to collect despair, despair is caused by unhappiness and regret caused by the wish. This is a stated fact by Kyubey). --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:32, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?"''
:The act of wishing itself is still corrupted, because the wish itself will turn you into a witch, perhaps not today or tomorrow but sometime soon. Keep in mind, is not getting the cake that is the problem in that case. It's the act of making a wish. Let us say you make a wish for cake, and you are happy to get the cake, but then you are forced to fight witches and you regret it because you wish you had gotten a better wish instead, that is twisted. But let's say you are still ok with getting cake and fighting witches and you don't regret getting the cake at that moment, but with time you start to feel tired of fighting witches all the time, soon you feel like you wished you had never wished to had gotten a wish to begin with, that is still a twisted wish. But let us say after many years you are still happy and you haven't regretted for the wish, but then you die and you regret dying, still the same, you regret making a wish because now you are dying. In all cases, it doesn't matter, you are <u>a slave to the wish</u>, the wish forced you to become a slave and fight against witches, thus the wish itself was twisted since the beginning because the wish will betray you at the end or cause a situation that would cause you die or to turn into a witch. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 06:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"I would say it is that the girl is corrupted that causes the wish to be twisted"''
:Again, I disagree. That may apply with Sayaka, but what about Kyoko? When she lost her family she was still happy and working with Mami at the time. As I said, And what about Mami? In Mami's situation her misery was building up for a long time but we dont know when or how long or if she regretted her decision the moment she was healed, too many unkowns to be certain and when she died she was very happy because Madoka was going to make the wish until she was killed, which we dont know how she felt but she looked scared. As I said, it doesnt matter if the person is happy at the moment, the wish will betray the person one way or another, even if the person hasnt been corrupted yet. Is not that the person corrupt the wish, the wish was already corrupted because the girls corrupted reality itself by changing it. Kyubey states that by changing reality, reality would change their wishes in the worst outcome. Let me put it this way, you cannot make an omelet without breaking eggs, which means the girls couldn't have it both ways to keep their wish and have no terrible outcomes. It doesn't work that way, according with Kyubey you cannot get a wish and the wish would be clean (no consequences) unless you are a pure person. That is not what Kyubey says, he says by getting the wish it would be logical that the wish is already twisted and corrupted. Think about it, why recruit Madoka if he knows that Madoka's purity wont corrupt the wish? Kyubey knows that no matter how pure a person the wish is already corrupt and twisted to begin with. Again, this is already stated in the series about the sense of hopelessness and despair.--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 18:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
:The series has many examples of each girls consequences and despairs, making them unique and different. Sometimes the wish that one makes is selfish, another it is difficult to be clear. Sometimes they get transformed because they accumulated despair, other times they used up all magic. The story is complex with many differences, but at the end it is clear that no matter how pure a person, despair continues to accumulate and claim the person because they are bound by the wish, even if you think the wish content is not corrupt or twisted because you dont see anything wrong with the wish itself, you are still not seeing the clear problem. Even at that point the wish was twisted because the person twisted reality itself. Reality and wish are not the same, reality belongs in the real of "logic" while the wish belongs in teh realm of "the impossible". By saying reality was twisted and not the wish that was twisted that goes what Kyubey was saying to begin with. When one says that reality and the wish are the same, that is an error. Because they are both separate entities. They do not belong together. So when one says reality was twisted, I am not saying the wish was twisted, I am actually saying reality was twisted, and because reality was twisted reality fought back by twisting their wishes. Again, when the girls twisted reality, reality twisted their wishes. That is how Episode 11 states. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 18:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"I claimed that the wish caused the reality to be twisted, while its content is not twisted, and again I want you to notice that, I'm not saying this is true for every girl, I'm merely saying that it might be true for some girls, for example, Madoka."''
:This is what we call an impasse. I disagree with that statement because it undermines the series all together. If there were exceptions to the rule that only very few can get away with where their contents are not twisted, then the whole idea is absurd. It's like saying most girls' wishes will be twisted, but only few won't. Kyubey never states that, it states that all wishes get twisted. Otherwise the whole series is a lie. That's like saying Madoka is never in danger because her wish wont be twisted. There are no exceptions to this rule. The reason Homura traveled back in time is because the wishes cant never be negotiated to be other than being twisted since the beginning. Homura realizes she can't go against reality's punishment. What you are proposing goes against what Kyubey already stated, and for that reason it goes against the whole idea of the series. Let me set up an example. Let us say Kyubey approaches another girl. Kyubey tells the girl that if she makes a contract Kyubey will give her a million dollars. The girl accepts, so Kyubey robs a bank and takes the money. Kyubey gives the money to the girl but the girl doesnt know that the money was stolen. The act of robing a bank is the attempt to change reality, the money that was taken from the bank is the twisted wish because that's stolen property. It doesnt matter what the girl will do with the money (she can donate it for all I care) because that money is tainted, it was stolen. But it doesn't end there, the bank calls the police so they arrest the girl with the money, it doesn't matter she didn't know the money was stolen; or the fact that she received stolen property without her herself robbing the bank; or that she tried to use it to make good; it still makes it a crime. The act of wishing is a crime against reality because it causes something absurd to become possible. These girls obtained these wishes without working for it. If Sayaka had worked to gain a boy's love, if Kyoko had worked to help her dad to make people listen to him, these are acts working within reality, but instead they used wishes to cheat reality. That is why the wishes are tainted since the beginning. The scenario would be same if a girl asked kyubey for cake instead of a million dollars, Kyubey robs a bakery and then gives teh cake to the girl without knowing it was stolen, the bakery calls teh cops and the girl gets arrested, even if the stolen item is insignificant it still a stolen item. The same with the wishes, all wishes are a crime against reality because Kyubey changed reality at the wish of these girls. So reality would punish those girls the same way a bank/bakery by calling the police. This is the idea of why making a wish with Kyubey without consequences is just impossible, because reality will twist the wish in any way and punish them and make them regret making the wish. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 03:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Please stop. I already told you what I have stated, that the content of a wish is already corrupted because reality corrupted it already, the content doesn't corrupt after becoming a witch. There is no point of it! The whole purpose of a wish being corrupted is to push a Puella Magi into transformation, otherwise the mechanism is wrong. I have already stated my words. If you have any questions post it on the proper talk page. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 03:52, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
==Future Questions==
'''Please''', any future questions post them on the Talk page, for example for madoka relevant questions go to the talk page: [http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Talk:Madoka_Kaname http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Talk:Madoka_Kaname] (that's why the talk page is there for, if you have any questions, ask there). If you want to get feedback from others, not just from me. All of us are very busy dealing with other sections so: 1. Some of us would be too busy to respond, so some responses would be slow; 2. You will get different answers; 3. Will ask you to provide some evidence to back up your claim, not just opinions --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 07:36, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 05:52, 29 September 2011

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