Please leave the Yuri undertones page alone. It doesn't need to be edited whether you like shipping or not. Continue to edit and delete will result in a ban. -- The Witch's House 03:52, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
What does Kyouko and Mami have anything to do with undertones? I'm just making it more accurate. They share only a senpai/kouhai relationship in TDS and CD3. Don't mislead people. It even takes a more familial tone later on and Mami refers to her as her sister.
You could say the same with any of the others. The page even says that it is fanon and shouldn't be taken as fact. So please leave the page alone and stop editing it please. I'd prefer it if you could help with editing pages that really need work such as Tart Magica or Oriko Magica Sadness Prayer. -- The Witch's House 19:51, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
You can't say the same actually because the main couples actually do undergo subtext. AI-YO and Lovers hold for examples (the former being more blatant) plus the main couples actually get a push from the staff such as: Ume, character duets, PSP games, etc. Any of the others fail to compare. But alright I'll stop editing but only 'cause it is based more on a fanon perspective. In a way it's a fair point. Sorry, I don't get into those spin-offs and to tell the truth, I only made this user to edit the Undertones page.
By that logic Mami and Charlotte/Nagisa shouldn't be there either due to their relationship seemingly being shown as sisterly at most. And well lack of KyoMami fanarts compared to KyoSaya could be attributed to the fact that not many people read Different Story, or other media detailing relationship between Kyouko and Mami, as much as anime detailed one between her and Sayaka. To be honest I am actually much more behind KyoMami that KyoSaya, seeing how Kyouko knew Sayaka for just few days at most, and 75% of that time they were arguing or trying to kill each other. But at the same time I don't forcibly try to pretend that there isn't any yuri tension between the two. Also just as a bonus "Onee-sama"(The japanese versions of Kyouko calling Mami "sister" which you mentioned) is sometimes used to refer to older girl in yuri relationship... But either way, as The Witch's House said, it's a fanon based article, so pretty much anything goes, it could even detail Madoka paired with her mother if fans believed that XD. Anyway though for that matter I guess we could also return some of the pairings edited out by "TheEditingWizard" some time ago. -- Darkblader 22:17, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
@Darkblader, first off, if you're not even competent enough to use the word art correctly in a sentence, you really don't have any grounds to be speaking about, well, anything. Because you learn that art is a plural word in and of itself in your very first years of schooling. Anyway, .Mami and Nagisa are paired up by the creators of the series, it's why they appear in all promo art together, like Madoka and Homura / Kyouko and Sayaka. Notice how there is exactly zero promotional images that feature Kyouko and Mami. One thing you should never do is openly admit you're biased when you're trying to make an argument as to why you're correct. The fact you say that you're much more behind crack like KyouMami means that you are far from being objective. Mami treats Kyouko like every other girl in the series with the exception of maybe Homura, not for lack of trying on Mami's part, though. It's even more obvious how biased you are, because you blatantly try to distort facts and use revisionist history to support your claims. Kyouko and Sayaka fought openly all of two (2) times. And the second time Kyouko may have been antagonistic, but she was also trying to help Sayaka and make her understand that she deserved better than the suffering she was currently going through. She traded her soul for more or less nothing, so Kyouko was trying to get her what she wanted. After that point they never actually fight, and it's mainly all about Kyouko trying to help Sayaka. On the flip side, like said before, Mami treats all the girls the same way, she was even going to sacrifice herself to save Sayaka. Mami is altruistic like that. Mami and Kyouko, in TDS, which is not canon, became close AS FAMILY because neither really had any. Mami's parents were dead, and Kyouko's home life was awful due to being very poor, so she looked up to Mami as an older figure. That said, your "onee-sama" argument is totally flawed, and nonsensical. Onee-sama is a widely used term. By your logic using kimi and anta is also indicative of some kind of romantic attraction because those words are used in romance stories. There is nothing at all that suggests an actual romantic relationship between Kyouko and Mami anywhere in official mediums for this series.
Like I stated when I first edited the undertones page, this website is for Madoka based information, and it should not be supporting content that demeans and degrades the Madoka characters. That's oxymoronic.
@The Witch's House, you say it's a "fanon" page, but that doesn't actually address the key issue here. Which is that the main wiki for the series is propagating content that belittles and slights the series itself. Like stated before, crack content degrades the characters and belittles them and it states that their in series relationships are cheap, shallow, and disposable. Every crack image's setting must make those statements, or the crack image's setting could not exist, because if the image was implying their relationships are meaningful, with depth and faithful, then it wouldn't be a crack image, it'd just be another canon pair image.
Here's another thing. There actually ARE yuri undertones in the series, so this wiki should present accurate information about it. That's the point of a wiki, to be as accurate as possible. The creator, Urobuchi has openly supported yuri in many cases. At one point in an interview about Kyouko and Sayaka's relationship Urobuchi was asked about gays, and his reply was "I believe that any romance happens between a man and woman can happen between same sex couples as well." The implication here is obvious. Other obvious ones are like Urobuchi saying Homura does love Madoka. Or, how he said that he would never let Sayaka have a happy ending if Kyousuke was her love interest, and then, he gives Sayaka a happy ending with Kyouko.
Just to clarify one more thing. "undertone" does not mean "not canon/true" or anything of the sort. An undertone is just something that is, well, an underlying element in the story. There are "undertones" of egg in a cake, but it's still "canon" there are eggs in the cake. EditingWizard 12:55, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
I should add one more thing. If you'd liked me to over all the yuri undertones page and make it purely factual with only cited and sourced evidence I will.EditingWizard 12:59, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
@EditingWizard I don't want to start an argument on a wiki... but you know it's really low when first sentence of your reply is clearly just an angry rebuttal to an opinion you disagree with, and can't deal with the fact someone doesn't think the way you do. First of all, English is not my first language, so it will show sometimes, sorry for that. Nonetheless implying that I have no competence to speak over simple error like that is just extremely arrogant on your part. Secondly, I can give you multiple links to official art that features Mami and Kyouko together(And without others since I assume that's what you meant), granted there will be much less of it than art with Sayaka, but it exists nonetheless, so your claim of "zero promotional images" is easily debunked. Thirdly, you say I shouldn't admit I am biased... well then you pretty much made it clear that you are biased yourself in the matter, making it seem incredibly hypocritical. While you are correct about Kyouko fighting Sayaka two times, you should also consider how many times they met overall. They met 4-5 times at most, longest one being when Kyouko showed Sayaka the ruined church, and even that one ended rather antagonistic even if they didn't actually fight, after that Kyouko only briefly stopped Homura from killing Sayaka on the spot, and then finally they had short talk just before Sayaka died and turned into a witch. Now, I won't give my thoughts on the matter since all my opinions are invalid to great and mighty you, but do you think people can fall in love in such a short span of time? Also given you seem to consider it a legit reason to deny existence of a ship: Are there any official sources where Kyouko and Sayaka are undeniably shown as lovers? And ambiguous statements by Urobuchi don't count, since the example you brought up is just dodging from giving a definite answer. Closest to legit yuri relationship are clearly Homura and Madoka, and there I won't argue we are talking about yuri relationship. However Kyouko and Sayaka case isn't anywhere near that clear, for all that we know just like with Mami, Kyouko might think of Sayaka as her sister. Let me just leave it at that for now.
Also, what makes you think that you have authority to decide what can be on this page and what can't? From your editing history, I can see that you clearly joined there just for editing the Yuri Undertones article(Admittedly I did so too, however I didn't go around deleting whole paragraphs because I don't like them). You don't have any more authority to say what can be there than I do. You seem to have some kind of unexplained delusions of superiority. -- Darkblader 20:49, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
@Darkblader, nothing I said was an opinion, nor was it angry. Stop using words that you don't understand the meaning of. It is a fact you are misusing words and openly being biased. And you don't have an competence. Saying something like "no competence to speak over simple error " is full on broken English. What's even the point in your discussing something with you when you not only can't form correct English statements, but you clearly don't have the vocabulary required to take part in actual discussion about facts. If you don't know what the words you're using mean, or what the words other people are using mean, there becomes as massive barrier that can't be fixed.
And you don't even know what promotional images are. I bet you are honestly stupid enough to think those photoshopped mobage cards are official art. There are no promotional images that feature Kyouko and Mami, get over it. Also, you need to realize that not everything and anything in the world is an opinion. The fact you are under this delusion means you are already in the wrong mind set to have rational discussion with other people. Because there is no reasoning with you, as you think everything should end in "let's agree to disagree, lol XD i respect ur opinion =)))))))". Which isn't actually real discussion. I don't delete the "paragraphs" because I don't like them. I delete them because they are nonsense that degrades and demean the characters, and of course, are factually wrong as well. The fact you are trying to make everything personal just shows how you aren't ready to deal with the real world in any way shape or form. Opinions don't matter, ever, and the only thing that should be part of discussions like this are facts and things you can prove.
There is nothing that suggests Kyouko sees Sayaka as a sister in any way. And this statement "you are biased yourself in the matter, making it seem incredibly hypocritical" statement doesn't make any sense in English. You can be biased for a factual representation. Bias is about favoring your personal view points over facts. Your argument is literally "RESPECT MY OPINIONS!!!!!", while I'm here just listing facts and explaining them in detail. Your argument was that they, Kyouko and Sayaka, spent all of their on screen time fighting. That's blatantly wrong, and you just don't have the ability to read situations correctly. After the church scene Sayaka had no real issue with Kyouko, and even though she said she would fight Kyouko is she ever saw her again, Sayaka never followed through on that. She was just trying to stay true to her ideals of justice, but she was already starting to realize that her ideals were flawed, thus even more had no issue with Kyouko. And yes, there is no time minimum or maximum required amount of time to fall in love.
Lastly, you don't seem to understand how "not directly stated" and "not factually true" don't mean the same thing. Just because something is not directly stated doesn't mean it's not factually true. For example, it's never stated their is oxygen in the air of the Madoka universe, but because the characters are human, and they are breaking, it's a fact there is oxygen in the air. There are only so many possible outcomes for any given event, and in this case, the number of out comes is limited to one. As the actions can not imply anything else within in reason.
Just curious, because you seem to be really slow and miss a lot of things. You know just how much the staff supports Kyouko and Sayaka? There is an kiss scene between them in the opening of Rebellion. EditingWizard 22:27, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
@EditingWizard Let me play your game then. You said "you don't have an competence", while even an elementary schooler would know that gramatically correct form would be "a competence". Also worth mentioning is "What's even the point in your discussing something with you when you not only can't form correct English", well you, dear sir(or lady), clearly can't form correct statements either.
Do you see now how childish it is to judge people's intelligence based on what they write online? And before you try to, for example, accuse me of editing it due to my accidental undo on this talk earlier, then feel free to check that I changed nothing. The undo was a misclick caused by the fact that it's 1AM here already and I am spending time I could use on sleeping, on hitting my head against a wall while replying to you.
And well yeah, I am saying that we should agree to disagree, because believe it or not, people are allowed to have different opinions and interpretations! Meanwhile you seem to think that your way of seeing things is the only correct one, therefore all others who think otherwise should be silenced and shunned for their idiocy. You criticize my argument for being "RESPECT MY OPINIONS", while your own argument is "EVERYTHING I SAY IS A PROVEN FACT AND YOU SHALL NOT DENY IT!". Your claim that you delete paragraphs because they demean characters is a pathetic excuse, anyone can say it about anything, I could say for example that implying that Mami would be interested in Nagisa in yuri way is disgustingly insulting to her as character because she isn't a pedophile(Yes, there is official art of them together, but none of it is really implying any romantic relations). I don't really think that of course, but hopefully now you see how ludicrous your reasoning there is.
It would be best if admins or mods, if this wiki has any, resolved this situation since I doubt you or me are going to give in on our own there. -- Darkblader 23:33, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
@Darkblader, making a single typo is not an issue when I am typing a drastic amount more than. And no, what you write directly reflects your intelligence. For example, if you misuse words or don't understand what they mean while trying to insist you are factually correct means you have low intelligence. Really, do you think your actions just mean nothing and that everyone should just assume you're a genius no matter what stupid things you say or how many logical errors you make?
Guess what? You ARE wrong. Novel concept, huh. Just because you CAN have an opinion does not mean you are correct in your opinion or your interpretation. Really, why do you think people should accept what you say just because you say it? Do you realize how stupid that is? "My way" of seeing things is just assessing events through observation and logical assertion. You know, being factual. You want to try and pretend everything is subjective so you can delude yourself into never thinking you're wrong. If someone had the "opinion" that soul gems are made out of skittles, do you really think people should not say that person is blatantly wrong just because it's his "opinion"? There is no point in discussion that ends in "let's agree to disagree".
And yes, as a matter of fact, everything I say is a fact. But it's not a fact because I say, it's a fact because it sourced, cited and follows logical assertion. If you think it's not a fact, prove it. Don't just scream at people that everything is an opinion. Say why you think it's wrong and try to prove it. This is the bases of literally all discussion.
I find it funny you didn't try to post or link any promotional images that have Kyouko and Mami in them as the focus. It's probably because you realized there are none. Anyway, you should really be able to figure out how crack content degrades the characters, because it's extremely simple. But here, I'll spell it out just for you. 1. Base line value comes from the original source of the series. 2. Canon and third party made art work have separate values. 3. To find out what is degrading (objectively bad) to the characters, you compare the two previously mentioned values. 4. The aspects you compare are how the characters are portrayed in said settings, canon vs third party, with canon obviously being the base line value. 5. The characters are portrayed in canon as having strong and meaningful relationships with their respective partners. 6. In order for a crack setting to exist in a third part art work it MUST imply that the in canon relationships are weak and disposable. Because if that canon relationships were not weak and disposable in the crack art work setting then it wouldn't be crack, it would just be a canon pair art work again. 7. Thus, because the third party art work is portraying the characters in a lesser state than how they are shown in canon, and implying their positive aspects are actually weak, it is low quality content.
If you really can't understand it after having it spelled out for you in such a cut and dry fashion, then you need some real help. EditingWizard 00:15, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I've already contacted one of the mods, I suggest if you want to keep your account you stop editing and removing text on the page right now. Leave it alone. It is not a priority at the moment. -- The Witch's House 00:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I like how you don't even bother reading because you know you're just wrong and there's no way you could get out of it. No matter what the mod says, you're still in the wrong for degrading the characters and damaging the fan base by propagating low quality content. Also, I don't care about this account. I only made it for the sole purpose of getting you to stop hurting the fan base. Why don't YOU stop editing the page, considering you are the one doing something wrong. EditingWizard 00:34, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
@EditingWizard Every word you speak here is just boasting your own self-righteousness. I don't blame Witch's House for not bothering to read your ramblings about "damaging the fanbase", when NOBODY else agrees with you about that, you sit in your own little delusional world wanting to bully people into making things the way you like. You are no different than a spoiled little kid. Unlike you, Witch House actually tried to really improve the wiki, while you come in here, interested solely in this one article, and suddenly think of yourself as above everyone else because "you have your facts". Honestly? No fanbase is being hurt there, only thing that is being hurt there however is your own ego, and you are throwing a tempter tantrum because you can't get your way.
If you really want to have it your way, why not just create your own wiki? If you did, you could put only "factual and proven" content there! -- Darkblader 07:41, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
@Retard (Darkblader) You can't honestly think your total non-answer and side stepping actually makes you correct in anything you say. Really, do you think if you just ignore how you have been proven wrong about literally everything you've said that you'll just "win" the argument or something. You have replied to arguments that prove you factually wrong with nothing more than "nuh uuuh!!!" and the irony is that you call other people children. You're so painfully inept you make constantly logical errors. Even blatantly obvious ones like ad populum, where you try to pretend that you're right because other people agree with you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum, read that. It explains the fallacy you're trying to use. Also, railing against shipping cancer has always been a thing. You honestly think if you just block things out and ignore them that you can't be wrong about anything you say. You have literal psychosis. It doesn't matter how many people say something, right is right and wrong and wrong. It's that simple. Leaving aside how next to no one agrees with you, you just have extremely vocal spammers. You are damaging the fanbase with your content that degrades and demeans the characters. Making another wiki would change nothing about how you are still causing damage.
You know what makes it more obvious than anything that it's literally not possible to reason with you? Because you refuse to address anything said to you. Even simple cut and dry things, like how there is no promotional images of Kyouko with Mami. Your only answer to that is "oh you're right and I am wrong", but you refuse to say it because you just insanely want your own way regardless of whether you're right or wrong. EditingWizard
I like how you are now out right refusing to talk at all because you know you can't prove anything you say is correct, and you're just spam changing the wiki with undos, which you shouldn't be doing.EditingWizard 08:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I just realized that talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. I am sure that mods will be delighted to see you calling me a retard there though, how very mature of you! And you aren't the one to talk about edits when The Witch's House is a much more active wiki member, and told you not to do so, and yet you keep doing it anyway. -- Darkblader 08:18, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
No, see, here's where you being a retarded ESL'er puts you at an even further disadvantage. A brick wall is something that does not reply. YOU are the one who doesn't reply to anything said to you. The Witch's House is not an authority on anything, and again, you need to stop using so many logical falsies. Oh, and of course, you are a retard, in the medical definition of the term. As in, it's impossible for you to learn. I'm sorry that you are retarded, sorry because your actions cause tons of damage, but I am not sorry that I am using terms accurately. EditingWizard 08:23, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Honestly why is leaving Kyoumami intact so important? Edit it out, edit in, the cycle repeats. Honestly the page is better without it. Only because It's outta place compare to the rest as I said above. You made a point with it being based more on a fanon perspective. But now I'd say forget that; I'm with Wizard on editing the page with factual sources and cited evidence.
That's because none of the ships can be considered 100% canon. And if you consider official media, by that logic MadoSaya ship should also be there because of that entire one scene they had in official Battle Pentagram PS Vita game, where Madoka downright told Sayaka that she loves her. Either way, I am done here(But will keep editing things back until admin intervention), not because I can't go on, but because I have better things to do in my life than arguing with kids who get angry because someone dares to think their favourite ships aren't all that perfect. If you really were Madoka Magica fans you would not waste your time trying to silence other people with different opinions(And on yuri ships of all things...), but instead let everyone enjoy your favourite show the way they want to enjoy it. Peace out. -- Darkblader 09:53, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
You're really not helping your case by calling me names all because I disagree with you EditingWizard. I'm going to let the mod handle this when he gets here and he's gonna see just how mature you are over a shipping page.
EditingWizard and Cf, there's been talk about archiving all of the content on this wiki (in particular the fanon related pages) in favor of creating a revamped wiki that is more informative and doesn't have fanon included like a standard wiki should be (and for other reasons as well, here's the discussion if you're interested: http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Talk:Main_Page). Because there have been people who rely on this wiki for fanon theories, shipping, etc. we'd like to keep those pages as they are for when this wiki becomes archived so that people can still access this content. I don't like Yuri shipping myself nor KyoMami, but right now the page needs to be left alone and other pages need work until that time. Shipping based on evidence or no evidence isn't a priority at this moment that we should be arguing and editing about. We can work something like this out at a later time.
For the record EditingWizard, I do care about the wiki. I come here at least once a day. I try to update and add what I can when I can such as manga summaries, character pages and art (and prevent vandalizing of pages). Heck, I'm currently trying to provide clear images of Kazumi Magica's store bonuses art (mainly clean up so there's no scan lines) and locate the rarer concept art and short stories. You on the other hand only made your account to edit a shipping page and argue over it while acting immature all because we'd like the page to stay the way it is and focus on what needs to be done.
The last thing we need is an editing war over a pairing and what we think counts as undertones or not. Right now, (everyone) please stop editing the page and let the mod handle this issue. -- The Witch's House 09:59, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
@The Witches House, I'm not calling you names because you disagree with me. I'm stating facts about how you are acting. If you are acting psychotic, which you are, then I'm going to call you psychotic. Not that hard to understand. If you don't want people to say negative things about you, don't do negative things. Most sane people don't want to have negative attributes, so, telling them what they're doing usually makes them want to stop and improve themselves. I'm the one who's actually mature here, not acting liking a child holding my breath refusing to talk. And it's not over "a shipping page" it's about how obnoxious you conduct yourself.
What you'd like is wholly irrelevant in the fact of what is factually correct. As I have explained, in detail, shipping cancer is damaging to the fanbase and degrading to the characters. You have refused to address this statement, and pretty much everything else said to you, so I can only assume you are insane and just refuse to admit you are wrong about anything. And you claim to not like it, but you openly insist it should stay there. You support content that degrades and demeans the characters is the same as you doing it yourself. So the end result is the also the same, you are doing something.
@Darkblader, I get that you're literally autistic and all, as such you always misread social cues, like thinking people are mad when they're not. And you also fail to understand there is such a thing as platonic love. Which is actually much more common than romantic love. If you were and actual fan of the series, you wouldn't degrade and bastardize it. You're actually NOT enjoying the series, you are enjoying your own self serving shipping nonsense, which actually has nothing at all to do with the series and everything to do with your own personal fetishes. How does letting other people enjoy shitting on the characters make someone more of a fan? Do you realize how stupid you sound?
EditingWizard 10:10, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
@EditingWizard Well well, I know that I said I won't reply to you anymore. But I decided to give one more thought after realizing who you are "EditingWizard", or perhaps I should say ACK, AntiCrack-Kun(For others reading this message I suggest you google that nickname). You are quite infamous on the internet. I was sure I heard about some easily triggered 4chan user who obsessively hates all pairings that he deems fake, and gives giant walls of text explaining his insane reasoning, calling everyone autistic for disagreeing with him in the process. I am pretty sure you know how will it end by now too. You will get banned, and you won't get your way, no matter how many people you call autistic or retarded desperately trying to get your way. I can only send my sincerest sympathies to your family and people who have to deal with you on daily basis, because you are nothing but a nuisance. -- Darkblader 13:37, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Darkblader, No one's mad and cut that "real Madoka fans" bs. Your argument with Madosaya doesn't help the case. Also who Wizard is is irrelevant to the argument.
@cf My Madosaya argument was meant to be ironic. What I was actually saying there was that ACK's "only facts count" arguments about other ships, have no better proof about other ships, closest thing being Homura talking about her love for Madoka near end of Rebellion, and even this could be dismissed as non-romantic in nature following his own train of thought. And can't you see what kind of person are you teaming up with there? Either way, this mess will be over as soon as admin or mod steps in. (Also your poorly disguised threat before you edited it out just shows how "not mad" you are XD https://ibb.co/irt2A5) -- Darkblader 14:03, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I googled it and it's really just a site: Kiwi, that archives anything on this person. It's a mess in those comments is all I'll say. Any who, why would I be mad? I did edit out that last part since I realized it wasn't needed. Also are you seriously arguing that AI-YO can be dismissed as non-romantic? She even says desire. Also "XD" What are you 12? That may explain your edgy name.
@Darkblader, I already spotted you as the crack spamming shitposter from 4chan hours and hours ago (I know who you were the second you said "paragraphs" as if it was some kind of insult). It was obvious who you were from the start with your broken English and refusal to actually address anything anyone says to you. If you google the random name you made you see a kiwi farms link where the OP just lists a bunch of random posts and claim that are "ack" with no actual proof or citation to back it up. Kiwifarms is not proof of anything, it's not a place with cited and sourced information. What's even more funny, is that the very first post in your kiwifarm thread is someone telling you to post some actual proof, and you say there isn't any. Then even later in the thread someone else posts proof (actual proof) that everything you say is wrong.
And you are autistic not because you disagree with me, but because your behavior itself is literally autistic. As in, you fail to communicate with other people. Which is obvious, and you have been told this same thing many times, and you still can't learn it, which makes you medically retarded.EditingWizard 19:36, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Welp, it's fucked.