User talk:Cf

Please leave the Yuri undertones page alone. It doesn't need to be edited whether you like shipping or not. Continue to edit and delete will result in a ban. -- The Witch's House 03:52, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

What does Kyouko and Mami have anything to do with undertones? I'm just making it more accurate. They share only a senpai/kouhai relationship in TDS and CD3. Don't mislead people. It even takes a more familial tone later on and Mami refers to her as her sister.

You could say the same with any of the others. The page even says that it is fanon and shouldn't be taken as fact. So please leave the page alone and stop editing it please. I'd prefer it if you could help with editing pages that really need work such as Tart Magica or Oriko Magica Sadness Prayer. -- The Witch's House 19:51, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

You can't say the same actually because the main couples actually do undergo subtext. AI-YO and Lovers hold for examples (the former being more blatant) plus the main couples actually get a push from the staff such as: Ume, character duets, PSP games, etc. Any of the others fail to compare. But alright I'll stop editing but only 'cause it is based more on a fanon perspective. In a way it's a fair point. Sorry, I don't get into those spin-offs and to tell the truth, I only made this user to edit the Undertones page.

By that logic Mami and Charlotte/Nagisa shouldn't be there either due to their relationship seemingly being shown as sisterly at most. And well lack of KyoMami fanarts compared to KyoSaya could be attributed to the fact that not many people read Different Story, or other media detailing relationship between Kyouko and Mami, as much as anime detailed one between her and Sayaka. To be honest I am actually much more behind KyoMami that KyoSaya, seeing how Kyouko knew Sayaka for just few days at most, and 75% of that time they were arguing or trying to kill each other. But at the same time I don't forcibly try to pretend that there isn't any yuri tension between the two. Also just as a bonus "Onee-sama"(The japanese versions of Kyouko calling Mami "sister" which you mentioned) is sometimes used to refer to older girl in yuri relationship... But either way, as The Witch's House said, it's a fanon based article, so pretty much anything goes, it could even detail Madoka paired with her mother if fans believed that XD. Anyway though for that matter I guess we could also return some of the pairings edited out by "TheEditingWizard" some time ago. -- Darkblader 22:17, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

@Darkblader, first off, if you're not even competent enough to use the word art correctly in a sentence, you really don't have any grounds to be speaking about, well, anything. Because you learn that art is a plural word in and of itself in your very first years of schooling. Anyway, .Mami and Nagisa are paired up by the creators of the series, it's why they appear in all promo art together, like Madoka and Homura / Kyouko and Sayaka. Notice how there is exactly zero promotional images that feature Kyouko and Mami. One thing you should never do is openly admit you're biased when you're trying to make an argument as to why you're correct. The fact you say that you're much more behind crack like KyouMami means that you are far from being objective. Mami treats Kyouko like every other girl in the series with the exception of maybe Homura, not for lack of trying on Mami's part, though. It's even more obvious how biased you are, because you blatantly try to distort facts and use revisionist history to support your claims. Kyouko and Sayaka fought openly all of two (2) times. And the second time Kyouko may have been antagonistic, but she was also trying to help Sayaka and make her understand that she deserved better than the suffering she was currently going through. She traded her soul for more or less nothing, so Kyouko was trying to get her what she wanted. After that point they never actually fight, and it's mainly all about Kyouko trying to help Sayaka. On the flip side, like said before, Mami treats all the girls the same way, she was even going to sacrifice herself to save Sayaka. Mami is altruistic like that. Mami and Kyouko, in TDS, which is not canon, became close AS FAMILY because neither really had any. Mami's parents were dead, and Kyouko's home life was awful due to being very poor, so she looked up to Mami as an older figure. That said, your "onee-sama" argument is totally flawed, and nonsensical. Onee-sama is a widely used term. By your logic using kimi and anta is also indicative of some kind of romantic attraction because those words are used in romance stories. There is nothing at all that suggests an actual romantic relationship between Kyouko and Mami anywhere in official mediums for this series.

Like I stated when I first edited the undertones page, this website is for Madoka based information, and it should not be supporting content that demeans and degrades the Madoka characters. That's oxymoronic.

@The Witch's House, you say it's a "fanon" page, but that doesn't actually address the key issue here. Which is that the main wiki for the series is propagating content that belittles and slights the series itself. Like stated before, crack content degrades the characters and belittles them and it states that their in series relationships are cheap, shallow, and disposable. Every crack image's setting must make those statements, or the crack image's setting could not exist, because if the image was implying their relationships are meaningful, with depth and faithful, then it wouldn't be a crack image, it'd just be another canon pair image.

Here's another thing. There actually ARE yuri undertones in the series, so this wiki should present accurate information about it. That's the point of a wiki, to be as accurate as possible. The creator, Urobuchi has openly supported yuri in many cases. At one point in an interview about Kyouko and Sayaka's relationship Urobuchi was asked about gays, and his reply was "I believe that any romance happens between a man and woman can happen between same sex couples as well." The implication here is obvious. Other obvious ones are like Urobuchi saying Homura does love Madoka. Or, how he said that he would never let Sayaka have a happy ending if Kyousuke was her love interest, and then, he gives Sayaka a happy ending with Kyouko.

Just to clarify one more thing. "undertone" does not mean "not canon/true" or anything of the sort. An undertone is just something that is, well, an underlying element in the story. There are "undertones" of egg in a cake, but it's still "canon" there are eggs in the cake. EditingWizard 12:55, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I should add one more thing. If you'd liked me to over all the yuri undertones page and make it purely factual with only cited and sourced evidence I will.EditingWizard 12:59, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

@EditingWizard I don't want to start an argument on a wiki... but you know it's really low when first sentence of your reply is clearly just an angry rebuttal to an opinion you disagree with, and can't deal with the fact someone doesn't think the way you do. First of all, English is not my first language, so it will show sometimes, sorry for that. Nonetheless implying that I have no competence to speak over simple error like that is just extremely arrogant on your part. Secondly, I can give you multiple links to official art that features Mami and Kyouko together(And without others since I assume that's what you meant), granted there will be much less of it than art with Sayaka, but it exists nonetheless, so your claim of "zero promotional images" is easily debunked. Thirdly, you say I shouldn't admit I am biased... well then you pretty much made it clear that you are biased yourself in the matter, making it seem incredibly hypocritical. While you are correct about Kyouko fighting Sayaka two times, you should also consider how many times they met overall. They met 4-5 times at most, longest one being when Kyouko showed Sayaka the ruined church, and even that one ended rather antagonistic even if they didn't actually fight, after that Kyouko only briefly stopped Homura from killing Sayaka on the spot, and then finally they had short talk just before Sayaka died and turned into a witch. Now, I won't give my thoughts on the matter since all my opinions are invalid to great and mighty you, but do you think people can fall in love in such a short span of time? Also given you seem to consider it a legit reason to deny existence of a ship: Are there any official sources where Kyouko and Sayaka are undeniably shown as lovers? And ambiguous statements by Urobuchi don't count, since the example you brought up is just dodging from giving a definite answer. Closest to legit yuri relationship are clearly Homura and Madoka, and there I won't argue we are talking about yuri relationship. However Kyouko and Sayaka case isn't anywhere near that clear, for all that we know just like with Mami, Kyouko might think of Sayaka as her sister. Let me just leave it at that for now.

Also, what makes you think that you have authority to decide what can be on this page and what can't? From your editing history, I can see that you clearly joined there just for editing the Yuri Undertones article(Admittedly I did so too, however I didn't go around deleting whole paragraphs because I don't like them). You don't have any more authority to say what can be there than I do. You seem to have some kind of unexplained delusions of superiority. -- Darkblader 20:49, 18 June 2017 (UTC)