User talk:SayakaMadoka: Difference between revisions

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could you please put it on the speculation section then. As part of the observation Madoka seems to waver to do the right thing. However, stated in Episode 11 any wish she makes will be twisted by the nature of the wish. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:21, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
:please restore the link to philosophical observation. While it is true it is speculation, it is part as an attempt to understand the character of Madoka. This is why we have a section regarding speculation --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
:In the future if you think there are some need of changes, do not delete without at least consulting why. We want to keep as much information within the page, even if it is speculation. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
::I will go ahead and put the deleted sections in speculation since you didnt do it... I guess I will have to do it myself... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 08:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)


quote: "However, I still don't think it's good to say Madoka has become an "adult". In the anime, so called "maturity" is metaphorized as, essentially, corruption." When one becomes an adult, most likely he becomes a minion, a witch or a person whose true heart is blinded that he cannot resonant with other people and the power of the light side(hope, selfless love...). So it's OK to say Madoka grows up as herself but it's not good to say that she has become an adult,"
That is correct when we are talking about witches it is true, but we have to remember the part when Madoka was having a heartfelt conversation with her Mother, in which Junko was telling her that the world of adults was difficult and hard in which making "mistakes" was much more difficult and how children had it easy because mistakes were much more easy to make and heal. Then in Episode 11 we see Madoka is growing and she is understanding that she is stepping into the world of adult responsibility, that she cannot run away from her fears. Madoka is leaving the world of childhood adolescence and taking the mantle of adulthood but unlike witches, she carries with her hopes and dreams that are not immature in nature but very mature. You can be hopeful and mature and still carry it with you to the world of adulthood. Keep in mind, the new world is not perfect, is not an idealized version of a typical mahou shoujo fantasy world, but it is a better world thanks by Madoka's sacrifice. Madoka knowing the responsibilities and needs of this new world tries to keep it in valance. Madoka is taking all of that responsibility as it was stated by Mami's spirit in the final episode, that is one huge responsibility for a child. Madoka wants to emulate her mother and become a better adult and in doing so, rather than become a witch, she became a woman. Madoka also reasserts her adulthood by purifying the witches. She doesnt take away their hopes and dreams, nor does she prevents their death. Like an understanding adult she respect their wishes and purifies their souls so they can be taken wither her. Madoka is not as much as preventing witchfication but taking their burdens and impurities to help them pass on. So Madoka is lending them a helping hand, to all of them, for all eternity. In a way, as you stated it is no differing from the witchification process where the metamorphosis still transformed Madoka, but that doesnt mean adulthood is wrong, it just means that the girls during the second stage of growing became witches because of curses and despair, in Madoka case during the second stage of curse and despair Madoka defeated it by still retaining her purity but also by retaining her new sense of adult responsibility. Madoka willingly accepts the consequences of fading from the world. Something hard to do but she knows it needs to be done to help valance the world. Dont forget, Madoka did still became a Witch in Episode 12, but she also became the embodiment of hope and she defeated it. This is a show of a girl growing from childhood adolescence into the early stages of adulthood. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 19:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Keep in mind that there are a lot of different opinions regarding the Anime series. What we see is subjective and we are trying to bring up all of our views so we can allow different opinions. We do not want to make anyone coming to be anime feeling unwelcome. I do see it as a beautiful anime, are you implying something? Also, please if you want to make big changes (like deleting chunks of information) consult in the talk section of the page, otherwise it would look like you are purposely deleting sections just to uphold your own views. The views on this board are not just for one person but for everyone. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
''"I said I'm not going to delete anything now, unless you agree with what I said. I deleted things without telling any one at first is because this is the first time I write on a wiki page, sorry about that. If I'm going to delete anything in the future, I'm going to propose it first."''
:Dully noted, just wanted to make things clear. I hope you dont take offense. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 21:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
I would like to thank you of your insight, your statement reminds of the philosophical and theological debate regarding gnosticism. After this, I will try to dabble with it and see if it can be applied to my philosophical essay. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 00:35, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Please, do not use "I" on your statements. Fix that please, we are trying to write articles, otherwise it sounds like opinion pieces. Also Delete '''"I think you are beginning to see what I see, I agree with that "The series attempts to reveal the serious difficulties and challenges that girls like Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka have to face in this cruel world. What message can one take from the series is up to the viewers."， but I do think the series is actually revealing the dark truth of the so called "adulthood"."'', at this point that is a repeat, perhaps you can maybe fix the statement. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 01:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
quote: "Unlike Sayaka, Madoka gets corrupted not because of that her wish gets twisted(it may only get twisted after she become a witch, not before it, it is not causing her to become a witch). As for Kyoko, her wish is totally innocent and the fact that it is twisted has nothing to do with her selfishness, what has twisted her wish is simply, maybe we can say, uncertainty. Sometimes good wishes simply do not help people because of things that are unexpected. Also, Madoka was turned into a witch in the first lap, and it has nothing to do with the twist of her wish at all(her wish to save Amy)."
:the sound of this sentence does not sound right, it sounds off. Also, please try to at least bring up evidence, this sounds more like an opinion, not just speculation. Keep in mind there is a body of evidence in the series, including the issue of wishes getting twisted, if you can find evidence to back up your statement that is ok, but if you cannot then try to write it in the form to indicate that this is just a possible theory that requires evidence. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 12:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
''"and for Madoka, it may only be twisted after her being turned into a witch, that's what I mean."''
:You need to at least bring an example or prove it, otherwise this is just an opinion. There is nothing in the series as an example. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 20:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:I fix the sentencing for you because it wasn't clear and I cannot wait; if you want to change it, go ahead. Also, please try to bring up some examples to back up your evidence, otherwise at least try to change your sentencing otherwise it sounds like opinions with no claims for it. We do not want to fill it into opinion only. Also I do not believe you have proven your statement that Madoka's wish never gets twisted, I saw no evidence of this. There are plenty of examples for it but because we dont have solid evidence it is still speculah at the moment, (exampke, episode 10 where Homura was losing to Walpurgis Night. We do not know what was the wording for Madoka's wish but we suspect it was along the lines of defeating Walpurgis Night or protect the world, she became  wish and her wish got twisted. The twisting always happens before that causes the transformation because of dissatisfaction. The Madoka witch born from Madoka's wish to protect instead became a Witch that is destroying the world. The wish got twisted, always and it is stated by Kyubey and we have to assume <u>those are the words of the creators</u> until it can be disproved or a contradiction can be proven, until then it is considered fact. Find some evidence. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 20:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: "There are certain wishes that we can think of are hard to be twisted (example: I want a big delicious cake), and is it true if a Puella Magi makes that kind of wish she would never be turned into a witch?"
:In that situation Madoka didnt have a wish, Mami suggested Madoka to make a wish for cake since Madoka didnt have anything to wish for. Madoka just wanted to become a girl of justice. Just like Mami. Remember, Madoka's desire was to become a magical girl like those anime shows. If Madoka had made a wish for cake, that would not have been "her real wish", her real wish would had been to become a girl of justice and once she learned the truth it would only cause her despair or "regret her wish for cake" because she sold her soul for cake thus making her "unhappy" (thus making Madoka regret her wish and become unhappy). It is not the wish itself but their deeper desires of the wishes. For example Sayaka's true desire was not to heal Kyosuke but to get his love, Kyoko's true desire was not to turn her father into a mind manipulator but to help him. The wishes are a conduct or tool that starts the process for the witch transformation, however, it is the unfulfilled desire that is the driving force of despair that causes unhappiness. Take Mami's case, she got to live because of her wish, she got what she wanted at the time but her family died. Driven by guilt because she didnt think of saving them first, she became unhappy. She got what she wanted but then she regretted her wish. It is not just the wishes, it is their true desires and the consequences of their unhappiness that causes them to become witches. As for Madoka's wishes, we dont know why she didn't become a Witch in the original timeline, in the second she became a witch because she used all of her magic, in the fourth one Homura could not defeat walpurgis night so it is assumed that Madoka wished for the power to kill that walpurgis, we dont know the wording of Madoka's wish but to defeat that witch to save the world, Madoka's wish guaranteed the world's destruction in the process for the power to destroy Walpurgis was overwhelming that it drained Madoka of her magic. Does Madoka wanted the world destroyed? No, and whatever Madoka's wish was instead it created something that she didnt want. At the end all wishes get unfulfilled, it never grants happiness, or it fails to meet ones desire. That is the reason why wishes get twisted by logic, it never gives what one person truly desires, or if the person gets it, it never makes them happy.--[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"twisted wishes are not the causes but the consequences of her being turned into a witch"''
Did anyone in the anime series was truly happy of getting their wishes? Mami didnt, Sayaka didnt, Kyoko didnt. Homura was on her way because she kept failing to save Madoka. And as for Madoka we never get the wording of the previous time line wishes. We dont know why Madoka didnt become a witch in the original timeline. As stated before we dont know the wording that helped her to defeat Walpurgis Night but according to Kyubey she used all of her magic so she became a Witch but if her wish was to save the world or the town, it backfire. In this series, many of the girls once they get their wishes end up either regretting it or becoming unhappy. Their wishes dont get twisted after becoming witches, it gets twisted because it never makes them happy. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:26, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"So, are you indicating that no girl would truly make a wish like getting a cake? What if a girl really make a wish like that? Will she never become a witch?"'' No, you are missing the point. Madoka could have made *any wish*, but remember what she told Mami? She could not think of any wish, so Mami told her to wish for cake. Was that Madoka's true wish? No, because that was not her real wish, that was Mami's suggestion. After wishing for cake, the wish would still be twisted because Madoka would later regret it once she learned she sold her soul to become a witch. You saw how afraid Madoka was once she learned the truth. I am not saying once Madoka makes a wish for cake suddenly the cake tastes bad. I am saying any wish one makes wont create happiness in the end but regret. Unhappiness and regret is the key here. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"That's true, that's why I said maybe may be most of the time it is the case, but maybe it is not always true"''. A maybe is not an evidence, you have to prove it. It's true that maybe there could be an exception IF it was shown in the series with some other girls as exceptions, but we dont see any other girls, only these ones. At this point you are only stating an opinion. You can speculate as long as you can provide something. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"I'm talking about a random Puella Magi. And I'm not talking about a wish of getting a cake, but all wishes like that(that cannot be easily twisted)."''
: ~ Kyubey: "No matter the desire, if it's something irrational, then it will <u>always</u> distort reality in some way if it comes true. Then it's an obvious conclusion that it will always create the worst outcome . If you want to call that the result of that action "betrayal," then having the wish in the first place would be the mistake."
:You are saying that even a simple wish like "cake" cannot be twisted? According to Kyubey the act of getting ones wish is irrational. It distorts reality. What Kyubey states is that as a consequence somehow, someway, the person making the wish would: not get what they wanted and become unhappy, get what they wanted but regret it, or regret making a wish at all. As I stated wishing for cake (or any similar wishes) will get twisted in the sense that after making the wish if the person becomes unhappy in the end from it or regretted it, then it got twisted because their wish didn't make them happy. I am not saying that if one makes a simple wish like cake and then they dont get the cake they wanted, or the cake got bad taste etc. I am saying if a person makes a wish, no matter how simple or complex, at the end, because of the logic of the wish, the person will become unhappy. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 02:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
''"the content of the wish has nothing to do with her becoming a witch, the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it
makes her a Puella Magi"''
:True if it was an insignificant wish like cake, but it still does cause regret or unhappiness. As I said it doesnt matter if it is a simple wish. If wishing for cake made you unhappy, not because you didnt get cake, but because you are forced to fight wishes, ergo that cake didnt made you happy, ergo you regret making a wish, ergo the wish got twisted. In that case it is true the content doesn't matter, it still doesn't change the fact that the act of wishing still caused regret, and the person regrets making a wish or the wish didnt made them happy. If you ask a girl who made a wish, it was an insignificant wish. "Did you regret making that wish?" If the answer is yes, then the wish did not make them happy. Remember, according to Kyubey, the "act of wishing is irrational" not just the content of the wish. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 03:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"the only thing that the wish does that cause her to become a witch is that it makes her a Puella Magi(that's the only thing that the wish does that distorts the reality)"''
:I hope you are not saying that becoming a Puella Magi is the only act that distorts reality. Healing Kyosuke, distorts reality. Saving Mami, distorts reality. Giving Kyoko's father the magical power to make people believe him (or close to brainwashing powers), distorts reality. Magic distorts reality, the wishes distorts reality, Kyubey has the power to distort reality... --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 03:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''You didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said at the beginning "there is a possibility of that"''".
:I read it. The act of making a wish distorts reality. The fact that wishes can be created is an act of distortion by itself, not just becoming a puella magi or becoming a wish. Otherwise Kyubey cannot grant wishes nor can there be magic. When a person makes a wish, the act of wishing it, always distorts reality --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 03:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: ''"So we both agree with it then? If so, then it is possible that the content of the wishes of Madoka are only twisted after she's being turned into a witch, and the only reason that the wish caused her to become a witch is not that it is twisted before her became a witch, but it causes her to become a Puella Magi and face the darkness and corruption"''
:No, you are not getting my message. The wish doesnt get twisted after becoming a witch, the wish gets twisted as a result of making a wish. For example if you look in episode 10, in the timeline that Madoka became a witch. She got the power to defeat Walpurgis, remember what Kyubey say? Madoka became a witch because she used all of her energy, not because she has to face the darkness alone.
Quote: ''"So it is possible that the only thing it does to distort reality is that it turns the girl into a Puella Magi,"''
:Not only. Let me break it again. Making wish (distort reality), become puella magi (another distort reality), become witch (another distort reality). There is not only. --[[User:Mutopis|Mutopis]] 04:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

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