Talk:Oshiti

Gokumon

Can anyone explain what "Gokumon" means in this context? When I had first used Google Translate on Oshiti's and Suzugamori's descriptions, "Sinning" was the word used, and the only two results Google gives me for "Gokumon" are a Digimon and a board game called Gomoku. --Garr9988 (talk) 14:39, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

獄門 (gokumon) means a "Prison Gate" [1] Mokyubacky put the translation and explanation under the trivia section. Sondenise (talk) 20:55, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I wrote explanation about Gokumon in this article. There is very little information on the internet about Gokumon in English, but these article has a small amount of information in English.[2], [3]

Here are my Speculations about Why chosen Gokumon. These could be contextual informations.

• In Japan, the phrase "executed by Gokumon after being dragged around town（市中引き回しの上、打ち首獄門）" is a little famous due to the influence of historical dramas. So, when it comes to death penalty in Edo era, I can imagine Gokumon even though Yaoya Oshichi was not executed by Gokumon but burning at the stake. Inucurry may took advantage of this (not historically accurate) stereotype.
• In Edo period, in many cases, criminals who committed the same crime were sentenced differently depending on their social class. In most cases, arsonists were punished by fire, although there is the information indicated that the warrior class was not executed by fire, but by Gokumon (I have not been able to verify this information, sorry). In many of the works, Yaoya Oshichi's lover's family was belonged to the warrior class. So, The girl who became Oshiti may possibly loved proletarian even though she belonged to High Society.
• Yaoya Oshichi's Image about Oshiti may be a reference to the Five Women Who Loved Love (好色五人女）mainly. For example, the description of name on Sotoba and "袖絞", the witch's nature may be reference to this novel. In another volume of this novel, there is an only sentence about "upside down woman in Sonezaki（曽根崎の逆女）". Oshiti may be unlikely reference to this.
• Death by burning is same idea as Tart. By the way, burning at the stake in Edo period and Medieval Europe are two different methods.

Remember that all of these (the third is particularly like a joke) are very Speculative information！ Incidentally, Biography of Yaoya Oshichi has been exaggerated by many fictions. The caption of Oshiti also suggests that the truth of her crime will not be revealed.--Mokyubacky (talk) 23:19, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Translation

The current translation is missing several lines. I believe this one is more accurate: https://stellarcanopy.tumblr.com/post/189001509192/magia-record-witch-encyclopedia-translations However, I'm not 100% sure the translation for the nature is correct, since 絞 means hanging and not weeping. The most common definition of 袖 does seem to be sleeve, and googling turns up pictures of shirts with elastic bands in the sleeves, but it doesn't have much to do with the witch so I started looking at other definitions. It can also mean "building wing" (so it'd make her nature something like "wing for hanging"). There's also the term 袖柱, which refers to the supporting pillars of a torii gate (the second kanji being "pillar"). This seems more relevant, but since it seems like such an obscure definition I'd like someone else to weight in.--Arei (talk) 00:46, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello ! I translated 袖絞 to "Weeping". I chose it as a translation because I thought a short expression would be better. But I think the "to weep sleevefuls of tears" in the link is a more accurate and better translation. Maybe someone can try to quote it.

I would like to explain about the 袖絞. First, there is an idiom that "to wet one's sleeve with dropped tears （袖を濡らす）". It is a literary expression of crying with grief. 袖を絞る is one of the developments of this idiom and is a relatively old and minor idiom meaning "to cry so much tears of grief that one can squeeze one's sleeve ". This idiom has existed since the Heian period. So, "sleeves" in this expression refers to the sleeves of a Japanese kimono. This idiom is also used in the Five Women Who Loved Love, and 袖絞 seems to have abbreviated from this idiom.--Mokyubacky (talk) 16:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello, and thanks for the explanation! The witch is probably a reference to the novel version of Yaoya in particular, then. I do remember Mifuyu mentioning the book by name in her home screen quotes, so the idea for the design might have come from there. --Arei (talk) 23:04, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you. This novel is one of the most famous works about Yaoya Oshichi (in fact, I've only read it and a rakugo program). I can't know the actual production process, so I can't say for sure, but I think there's a possibility that there's a connection between this novel, Oshiti and Mifuyu's dialogue.--Mokyubacky (talk) 12:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)