Talk:Ebony

Are we going to keep that Trivia line about her outfit being controversial due to her light skin and sexualized design? I mean, a fair number of megucas have sexualized costumes and we had a similar line about Lavi being controversial because she's not Native American but that got taken down. Also, where is this controversy supposedly happening? Sondenise (talk) 01:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I suppose you have a point with how many characters have sexualized designs (unfortunately). But we may have to see if her story confirms whether she's natively Egpytian or not. If she is but is still light-skinned, I think it's worth noting the dissonance, and the same goes for Lavi not being confirmed to actually be any kind of American. And the controversy (at least about the racist elements) is "happening" on social media (Tumblr is where I keep up with MR news), and I imagine it might be more common in America than in Japan, but that's just me. --Garr9988 (talk) 01:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I had a suspicion it was tumblr. I'm not seeing any controversy on FB or Twitter. I'm up in the air about Lavi though, it's not as if most of the costumes have to do with the character's race or profession. I mean, Chisato isn't actually a cop, Aimi isn't a cowgirl or has anything to do with ranching, and Sasara isn't actually a knight for example. Sondenise (talk) 02:25, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I feel we could keep the controversies, we did leave it up for Rabi/Lavi for a good bit before it was removed, Plus, Chisato has actual controversy on her page where it states she "dislikes" her uniform. And further point. with the magis you mentioned. those are aesthetics. Racism is not an aesthetic. Aimi isn't a cowgirl. she is Japanese. Ebony is Egyptian. She is from Egyptian descent. so her skin tone being light is a fair trivia to have. Plus. if we have NSFW of magis on the page. i think controversy is ok... CafeAuBandage (talk) 04:17, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

If there's controversy, then I don't think there's anything wrong with noting it. It might turn out that Ebony is actually Greek and that's why she has pale skin, but if the story paints her as a native Egyptian, then it seems completely reasonable to note the dissonance. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 06:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

What kind of controversy and dissonance are we talking about if it's just a couple of comments on reddit, and Tumblr from the English-speaking part of the community? Why mention it at all, if within the framework of the entire community this event is many times less remarkable than the jokes associated with Makima? Emty (talk) 12:27, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Maybe the controversy isn't "wide-spread", but like. Racism in a character's design is worth calling out? It's racism, it's a problem whether a lot of people are talking about it or not. And tbh, the heavy sexualization of Ebony's outfit is wrapped up in exoticism and the fetishization of a far-off culture, in this case a people that live in a hot, arid climate must wear loose, extremely revealing clothing, right? (sarcasm). And CafeAuBandage is extremely right, clothes that are emblematic of a (minority) culture isn't the same as an occupational or fictionalized aesthetic like how Aimi is a cowgirl, Ikumi is a maid, and Chisato is a cop. Lavi is dressed in clothes that are clearly Native American, and that's a culture that has been heavily exploited, mistreated, and misrepresented, not a job - see "My Culture is Not a Costume". --Garr9988 (talk) 16:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

You don't even know what ethnicity Ebony is to talk about racism. As has been mentioned many times, she may be greek or of mixed ancestry, given the era. In regards to sexualization(a topic that is quite amusing as part of the discussion of Japanese gacha about magical girls) just look at the images and statues of egyptians and pharaohs, many of which appear openly naked. And yes, we are still talking about the magical girl outfit.As for the appropriation, and this woke sh*t, pls stop pulling your progressive western contexts where they are don't make sense. The fact that the Americans have done things in their time does not give them the right to read morality to others. Anime(and fantasy in general) constantly refer to all sorts of cultures, transforming and changing them as they need. We constantly see the stylization of traditional European and Asian cultures under contemporary popular culture and no one has a problem with this. Why do we have a special fad specifically on the indigenous peoples and some of poke сultures?. Emty (talk) 20:59, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

It's true we don't have it confirmed what ethnicity Ebony actually is so we shouldn't immediately call it racism if we don't have the full picture yet. Her costume is heavily based on Egyptian deities and priests (some of which were bare-ass naked). I mean, MagiReco has a Chinese character with a lot of the bad stereotypes associated with Chinese people as seen by the Japanese (such as the Blue Seas family and their former crime syndicate ways), and no one raises a stink about some of the stylized Japanese costumes like samurai and ninjas even though Asians are considered a minority in the USA. Are we basing the perceived racism from a purely Western standpoint? On a side note, the fact that Chisato dislikes her own meguca outfit isn't really controversy per se. Some of the fans may dislike it but the artist still chose to draw her with that kind of outfit. It's no better or worse than some of the other meguca outfits like Leila or Himika to name a few. Those costumes aren't controversial other than some people just dislike the costume. Controversy implies there's something more to it than just a skimpy outfit. Sondenise (talk) 01:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

On the problematic Chinese stuff around Meiyui: I imagine not a lot of Western fans were talking about it because they didn't know about it. On Ebony's outfit resembling Egyptian deities: that may be the case, but there's certainly a difference between designing a (likely underage) girl for sexual gratification, based on a culture that the artist is not a part of to boot, vs a culture depicting their own deities in such a way for whatever reason (be it sexual, religious, different cultural standards, etc.). There's an element of sterotyping and exploitative exoticism there. Again, "my culture is not a costume" is a sentiment that exists for a reason.

And also, Emty, "woke shit", "progressive western contexts where they don't make sense"? That's a very obvious indicator about where your values lie and what kind of person you are. There's a very big difference between the stereotypical and appropriative depiction of (often minority) cultures, such as Native American, vs more widespread and commonplace cultures like European and Asian cultures (plus, Japan gets a pass on depicting stylized Japanese aesthetics, obviously). The fact that this aesthetic was used on Lavi, including what appears to be a sacred feather headdress, who has not been confirmed to be of any sort of Native American ancestry herself, makes it cultural appropriation unless otherwise confirmed because it's being treated as a costume that has no relation to the character in question. Again again, "my culture is not a costume" is a sentiment that exists for a reason. It's why a sombrero, poncho, big mustache and maracas are an offensive depiction of Hispanic people. And also also - just because the sexualization of underage girls is common in Japan doesn't make it above disdain. That just makes it more worthy of being called out and hated. --Garr9988 (talk) 02:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC)