Talk:Ophelia

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Revision as of 11:00, 24 April 2012 by Randomanon (talk | contribs) (Final Words)
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A White Knight in shinning armor riding her noble steed to sweep off her feet her lovely maiden. A mercenary Puella Magi riding what appears to be a goat to impress Sayaka to sweep off her feet...

The Witch's Name is Ophelia. --SPDUDE48 11:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

So Japan doesn't want people to forget about Kyouko's death. Of course they'd pick the name of a woman who had one of the most famous and romanticized suicides in western literature. --randomanon 12:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Doesn't the name Ophelia seem more suitable for Sayaka? --SPDUDE48 12:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
They can't change Oktavia now that it's been chosen. Personally, I don't think Ophelia is really suited for Kyouko but I see where they may think it fits aside from the manner of death. Ophelia goes mad after her father dies and she's spurned by her love interest. For Kyouko to go witch, probably both those events happened (e.g. if you perceive Sayaka as her love interest). --randomanon 13:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Considering we dont know as of yet what triggered the transformation, it could be possible something along those lines could trigger it... --Mutopis 23:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh . . From Shakespeare's Hamlet. But how was her death famous and romanticized? --SPDUDE48 12:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Let me put it this way. How many women can you name off the top of your head who are famous for committing suicide? What names come to mind first? --randomanon 12:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Yep, I agree... --Mutopis 12:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Well Juliet for starters. Sorry, I'm really not that familiar with Hamlet --SPDUDE48 12:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I see. Well Ophelia's death and the imagery of her body floating in the water is well-known in literature like Hamlet is for his soliloquy. Juliet's death is not what makes her famous but rather her relationship with Romeo as star-crossed lovers. Cleopatra also reportedly committed suicide, but that's not what she was known for so much as her manner of living and her famous relationships with Roman emperors. Whereas Ophelia's death is what she's really known for. --randomanon 12:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Will an Ophelia page be created soon? --Mutopis 12:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I hope we get pictures regarding her familiars and her witch labyrinth... --Mutopis 12:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
If you want, although we have no info on the character yet so it seems premature. --randomanon 12:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

There'd better be fanart of her with Oktavia. --68.199.49.45 00:07, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

There is something beautiful yet haunting about that... --Mutopis 23:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if the reason Kyouko is riding a horse is somehow related to the unicorn symbol that appeared in the blu-ray version? If I were to interpret it, either it is a unicorn that lost its horn, or perhaps one can interpret the rider carrying a lance as part of the horn, I am just guessing... maybe there is something symbolic about it or maybe not... --Mutopis 10:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you are right. I was thinking that perhaps unicorn represent "innocence". Losing the horn means the lost of that innocence. Kyouko was innocent and always thought about doing justice and helping other like a legendary knight but then, Kyouko lost that innocence when his father murdered the whole family and branded her a witch. Perhaps the guilt she carried with her due to her failure to protect her family and later, Sayaka weighted too much for her causing her to turn into a witch. Demonicslayer 13:44, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Observation from /a/:

Madoka BD 5 Menu Art 2.jpg

Ophelia was a character who's main conflict was obeying her Father or her abusive love interest. She had a fear of intimacy and eventually cracks under all of the pressure everyone puts on her in the play. As for her death

Regardless of whether or not Gertrude was an eyewitness, the story of Ophelia's death is striking in a number of ways. First, her death seems to be passive: rather than straight-up committing suicide, as Gertrude tells us, she accidentally falls in the water and then simply neglects to save herself from sinking. This seems to be a metaphor for the way Ophelia lives her life toward the end of the play – going with the flow, doing what her father tells her to do, rather making decisions for herself. Ophelia's "garments" "pull" her down, as if they had a mind of their own.

We also notice that Ophelia is described as being "mermaid-like" with her "clothes spread wide." Even in death, Ophelia is figured as an erotic creature. Gertrude also suggests that Ophelia's drowning was natural when she describes Ophelia as being like a "native" creature in the water. This seems like a pretty dangerous and destructive way to describe a young woman's tragic death, don't you think?

Drowning

I got this from 4chan and thought to post this here so we can add it later to the Ophelia page at a later time. --Mutopis 08:35, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Teclo said:

Well the famous Ophelia in literature is the one from Hamlet, a potential wife of his. She ends up killing herself by drowning, and it's a famous death represented in various paintings, probably most famously (or at least to me, since my friend's mom has a copy in her house) is the Millais one.

Her drowning could link to Sayaka's water theme, that she went where Sayaka was (in her mermaid form, in water) but drowned in the process. Also Ophelia is linked to regret and, I think, unrequited love. As for the tendency for German literature references in Madoka, aren't they all (or almost all) from Goethe's Faust? The reason for that seems to be the obvious one; that they're both about making a deal with a devilish character that doesn't give you the whole story, with the deal heavily stacked in his favour.

Gallery


Her Nature

Can we get some confirmation as to what her nature is? The kanji for her nature translates to 'despair; desperation; abandonment'

Self-abandonement is defined as "the action of completely surrendering oneself to a desire or impulse." Should we make a section to clarify the nature? SPDUDE48 18:23, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, made the change accordingly. --randomanon 23:51, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the reason I went with a general abandonment for (自棄) rather than only abandoning her self is because of how Kyoko becomes a witch. She loses everything important to her, loses her beliefs and the last thing she does is curse the world before turning into a witch. So it feels more like it could be abandoning everything or at least it should be left as abandoning in a general sense, rather than specifically herself. --randomanon 00:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

So what exactly is the Witch abandoning? What are her familiars suppose to represent? SPDUDE48 12:00, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I thought my explanation of the ending tells that...I believe it would to someone who's played the route. If not, then you should probably wait to play the game and see for yourself. Or to clarify, each route has probably as much dialogue as the entire anime series. Exactly how meaningful would an explanation of the anime mean without having seen it? Exactly how accurate is one person's explanation going to be to how you'd interpret it if you saw it? There's so much lost without the context of having watched the whole thing. The same applies with the game. It doesn't help that there's people writing about the game who haven't even played it so we have misinformation, third party rumors and questionable interpretations floating around. Even the ones who have played the game do not have a perfect grasp of Japanese (me) and English (Yorkwoo) so we are losing things in translation. --randomanon 13:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Some words Kyoko says before transforming into Ophelia in the right. "When hope collapsed, and despair becomes unresistable, the only way is to fall, and to become the side to be eaten." "I curse! I curse everything in the world!" --Yorkwoo 13:49, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I recognize the second sentence but I don't remember the first one. Are you paraphrasing there? --randomanon 13:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Yes. But there are still lots of words being left. --Yorkwoo 14:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I thought so. To clarify, the second sentence about cursing Kyoko literally says. The first one she doesn't say that line...it's a paraphrase of Kyoko revising the food chain to be darker (witches eating magical girls), e.g. when magical girls lose hope and can't resist despair, they'll fall and be the ones eaten. --randomanon 14:12, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Since there's interest in the last dialogue of Kyoko becoming Ophelia, here is most of it: Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. Note, I recognize from memory some lines were removed, like all of Madoka's dialogue and a part where Kyoko asks Homura don't you feel anything from losing a classmate, asks Homura how she's so sure it couldn't have worked. Homura doesn't give her a explanation, just says she knows. This part I think is significant because the event that caused it is Homura killing Oktavia before Kyoko and Madoka can see if Sayaka could be brought back. Homura's coldness and lack of explanation (which is something she does constantly in the route to Kyoko) exacerbates the situation. --randomanon 14:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Oktavia dude? You got the wrong witch, her name is Ophelia. --Derp101(2) 14:21, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Fail LOL.SPDUDE48 17:23, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I meant Ophelia. --randomanon 20:51, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
The word(s) means to stop caring and let yourself go out of despair, though... maybe it's referring to how she feels like she might as well die and become a witch, since there's nothing left for her? Ykm 20:35, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Final Words

I think we should add her final words on her page, what she says seems befitting. If someone can translate the original quote into english or once the game is translated we need to add it on the page. Also, we should think about doing the same for the Candeloro page, some quote that reflects Mami's doom before her transformation... --Mutopis 23:38, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I disagree because there's no simple quote that explains their feelings, plus you need an explanation for context as to what it even means (ex: who is this child Mami's talking about?) The synopsis is fine to gain a general idea and people can get more details from reading about the game route or better yet, wait and play it. It's like if you hadn't seen the anime and you only knew Sayaka said "I'm an idiot," as a quote to explain her turning into a witch. You wouldn't understand all the things that led up to that and get the wrong impression about the complexity of feelings Sayaka felt prior to her transformation. --randomanon 00:49, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
To get the whole complexity, that is why we create subpages to explain the meaning behind it, but we do have pages with quotes in it that tries to get to the heart of it, even if it requires more context or information, like Kyubey's quote about growing girls, witches, and magical girls. If it is necessary we can have a small subpage with a synopsis explanation but as long as the quote captures the despair/message I think it gives a flavor of the dramatic --Mutopis 07:20, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
We didn't do that for Oktavia regarding the anime. There is an extensive write-up on the game already in the game pages. People can wait and experience the media. I personally think trying to spell everything out not only spoils things, but does so in a way that ruins personal interpretation. It is simply not done justice without experiencing the whole thing. Even a transcript doesn't get across the voice acting which gives you a feel of extra meaning behind things (what's said sadly, what is said angrily but in tears, etc.) Kyoko's route in particular is problematic because both Kyoko and Homura's dialogue constantly contradicts against what they do or really mean. --randomanon 10:36, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
I have no opinion on whether or not you should add Kyouko and Mami's final words to their pages, but here's my translation if you have any use for it. I'm not sure what order the screencaps above are in, though, so this may not be the section you were looking at! 64.89.144.110 05:49, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
"And to me, there's nothing left!"*
"There's nothing!"
"I'll curse it!"
"I'll...curse this whole world!"*
"IDIOOOT!"
  • The tense of this sentence and the ones following it is vague. Kyouko could be saying that she's cursing the whole world as she speaks.
  • Kyouko uses the word "sekai" (世界) here, which could refer to "society" in general or even the universe.

Bridle

I know I am just nickpicking, but I find it annoying that the horse doesnt seem to have a bridle, it just doesn't look right... --Mutopis 16:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

You remember how Homura could drive a tanker without being behind the wheel? Or how witches can control the actions of their familiars without speaking a word aloud? So why are you surprised that Ophelia can control her horse without a bridle? She doesn't need one because, magic. --randomanon 19:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)