Talk:And I'm Home

http://twitter.com/#!/wowaka/status/94363105114595328 喜多村さんも野中さんもとても気さく、かつ丁寧で謙虚な方で歌録りも適度な緊張感のもとスムーズに行えました。すごいいい曲になったんでぜひ聴いてもらえたらと思いますー。

Kitamura-san and Nonaka-san were very good-natured. Thanks to their politeness and kindness, the recording went smoothly despite a bit of tension. And I think it turned out to be a really good song, so you should listen to it.

http://twitter.com/#!/wowaka/status/94363035954712576 そんな訳で魔法少女まどか☆マギカBlu-ray&DVD第5巻に収録・第9話「そんなの、あたしが許さない」のEDは美樹さやか [喜多村英梨]・佐倉杏子 [野中藍] が歌うTV未放送の楽曲となり、完全生産限定版の特典CDには同曲のFull ver.とインストが収録されます。とのこと。

So yes, the ending song for the Blu-ray and DVD Volume 5 version of Episode 9 "That, I Cannot Allow" will be a song never before broadcast, sung by Sayaka Miki (Eri Kitamura-san) and Kyouko Sakura (Ai Nonaka-san). There will also be a limited edition CD being released simultaenously with the full version and the instrumental. So yeah. I composed, wrote lyrics for, and arranged the ninth original ending song "and I'm home" for the Puella Magi Madoka Magica Blu-ray and DVD Volume 5, being released 8/24. Vocals: Sayaka Miki (Eri Kitamura-san) and Kyouko Sakura (Ai Nonaka-san). --randomanon 05:09, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Are you really sure this text you're quoting contains the title "and I'm home"? In fact, have we ever seen an original Japanese title of this song anywhere? Markus Ramikin 21:54, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Not Rando, but the song's title has always been officially written in English. All official albums use the English title. CrystaltheCool 12:04, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

the recording went smoothly despite a bit of tension. My imagination is running wild with KyoSaya --Mutopis 05:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Personally, 何度でも名前を呼ぶよ seems more like "No matter how many times I call your name" than "Whatever you call this by". Also, it fits with the episode. 184.13.145.63 21:07, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

For "手を繋いでいたいんだ" the "たい" part denotes "to want". So, that line should be translated into something like: "I wanted to hold your hand." or "We wanted to hold our hands". Mordred 05:44, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Just going to say this in general: If you know Japanese and feel confident there's a change you can make that will improve the translation, especially now that we have the scan of the original lyrics, go ahead and make it. --randomanon 17:09, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Video with English subs and another one with different sub. --Mutopis 20:55, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Content of lyric translation and the one on the wiki aren't that different. Substance is basically the same, the variation arises from mostly subjective choices on turning a phrase or more literal translation vs. rephrasing for more "natural" flow to native English speakers. That's why it's not a problem if people want to tweak the lyrics on this page here and there as long as they know what they're doing (please don't touch it if you don't). Anyways, I think if the change is controversial, likely someone will change it back anyways. --randomanon 21:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

In Japanese, a question mark often means suprasegmental upstep in pitch, regardless of whether the sentence is really a question or not (presumably because Japanese orthography does not incorporate question marks and thus they are limited to casual usage). Therefore, better translation for "帰る場所はここだよ?" is "Please come back and be with me", as the sentence never questions if 帰る場所 (place to return) is ここ (here) but just trying to make sure the audience also thinks that 帰る場所 is ここ. Additionally, in "離せないもの、思うだけ心が痛いよ", もの doesn't mean "thing (物)" and must be interpreted as a sentence-final particle similar to Korean -ㄴ걸 used when indicating one's stance in somewhat adorable manner or as a conjunction similar to English thus. Both case, "It's hard to say goodbye, it hurts every time I think of you" would be appropriate. Sotei 09:57, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

... How'd you get "two hearts" from "sabitsuita kokoro"? As far as I can gather, there is no "two" implied anywhere, and no literal two.76.91.219.114 19:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Russian translation

Can I add russian translation of this song? Translation is based on english lyrics.

Yeah, sure. If you know wiki code, add a new section for it on the main page. If not, post it here on talk and I'll format it for you. --randomanon 22:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Done. Is it OK?

I made some fixes. It's OK now, I think. --randomanon 23:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your support. This character's song is very touching and sad, I really like it. Voice actors are amazing, anime is created by my favourite company, all of the OST is simply magnificient. So I've decided to translate "And I'm home" on russian though I'm from Ukraine. Maybe I'll try to translate "Magia" on russian as well.

OK, though we'll have to figure out something with formatting for that page if you do. I'm glad you like that it that much and I think some Russian visitors will appreciate it. --randomanon 23:23, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Hm, formatting? What do you mean by that? Proportions of the textbox?

Yes. We'll have to make a separate table. --randomanon 23:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Alright. Thank you again.

Well, actually... I don't really get it why a Russian translation should be here. I mean, I don't have anything against Russian language or people or anything, but this is an English-language wiki, and I thought we're supposed to stick to English (and original languages for sources). I actually think that the place for non-English translations are on fanpages or wikis in the language in question.

It may seem OK to post a Russian translation of a song here, sure, why not, it's just one more column in the table. But what if I suddenly thought "let's post a Polish translation, too!", then some other anon would post another translation in his/her language - let's say, German - then another in Chinese, Italian, French and whatever else? We'd have 10 columns of lyrics in different languages and suddenly none of them would be easy to read in such a crowded formatting. That's why I actually vote for deletion of the Russian translation. Let's stick to English on an English-language site. Externals link to translations in other languages at the bottom should be fine, though. --kFYatek 14:47, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree it, too. For other languages, it might be better to be placed in separated page. Yorkwoo 15:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

What about having a collapsible table (default closed) underneath for additional translations? Those could also hold alternative English wording if that's ever needed. KM 20:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised by the attitude this is an "English-only" fansite wiki. I have seen this from the start as an "international" wiki, hence why we have a section tracking Madoka licensing in every country, many of which do not have English as the dominate language. What does that mean, well to give you an example, here's a section from the Sailor Moon Russian page as an example of an internationally popular anime. Notice it is in English but also has Russian translations. My experience with international fan sites is that English is used as the default--because it is an accepted universal language--but the attitude is to embrace all countries and therefore other languages. That doesn't mean suddenly we have pages that are only made available in other languages, since there are country/language-specific fan sites that are only in those languages, but rather it is common to accept when people wish to do translations of the same content in other languages. As another example, Fate/Zero has ongoing translations in nine different languages for their LNs (Fate/Stay Night too, for the VN) while the main portal site is in English. You may want to consider the fact I, symbv, and many other of the biggest contributors to this wiki all do not have English as our primary language and that the links to this wiki pages can be found on sites that are primarily in other languages, in ones as diverse as Spanish, Russian, Thai and Chinese. So the idea of having an "English-only" wiki is really baffling to me when we consider the fanbase and what other popular fanbase do as well.

As to whether we should have a translation on the same page, separate page, making it collapsible etc., consider the fact this is a wiki that has crack theories and fan pics on the same page as factual observations, and we only separate them by sections (in fact, I had to push to get it made clear to separate fan from canon pics to avoid confusion, but I digress). So I am really surprised to hear that people think other languages should somehow be separated more than these other examples...you know that's somehow implying that they have less worth to the fanbase then other things we customarily put on the same page, e.g. crack theories and fan pics. My question is, why would we do that? My original intent was to have the Russian be in a separate table on the same page. It kind of surprised me when our translator put it in the same table, but the spacing worked out fine, so I let it go. If someone else wants to translate it another language, then I would put that and the Russian translation in a different section, "Other Translations" on the same page. We're nowhere near even the recommended page length limitations, so I don't see there's any problem in having many languages of the lyrics available, if it came down to it. Plus, making the fact we have other language translations visible is not a bad idea in my opinion, since there are so many international fans who are neither fluent in English nor Japanese. If on the other hand, someone wanted to a translation of something lengthy like the Guidebook (similar to the Fate/Zero LN example), I would definitely make a separate page for it, when considering issues with page length. If it became common to see translations of many pages in another language, then we could consider making other options, like maybe a link to it as a separate section of the wiki. But that is definitely a case of we'll cross the bridge if we ever get to it.--randomanon 20:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I see your point, and, well, of course we are an international community, both the active editors and guests are largely (or even primarily, perhaps) not native English speakers. That's certainly true. But English is our primary language of communication, and that's an important invariant for our editors and guests - we assume that all of us can read and understand English. There is nothing wrong about writing about things which are supposedly of little interest to fans from English-speaking countries, like the Italian dub. That's precisely because we are an international community. But, while we have a page about the Italian dub, it is written in English, and not Italian. And it's because we assume our readers to be English speakers (possibly among other languages), we don't assume anything about they speaking Italian or not.

Of course, we have some text in other languages - mostly Japanese, but there are also German quotations from Faust, informations about international licensing in their respective languages, and so on. And that's OK, because they are all quotations from outside sources in their respective original languages. That adds value for English speakers who also happen to know the source language - they can confront the original as such. That's also how that Sailor Moon in Russia wiki page is - it is a description of the Russian dub of Sailor Moon, in English, quoting Russian originals where appropriate and showing respective translations into English.

The Fate/Zero translations is a little diferent case, because baka-tsuki just hosts non-English subprojects for groups of foreign fans. We can essentially do the same - if we happen to have an active and interested enough group of eg. Russian-speaking editors, it is perfectly fine to create a sub-wiki, eg. under a Russian/ or Русский/ namespace, and have Russian-language articles there, sharing ideas and uploads, similar to how different versions of Wikipedia work. But having mixed-language pages doesn't seem right. Of course, if it's just translations of songs, it may not be too much of a burden (even so, I'm strongly for a separate section and not just a column), but it may also be encouraging to put more foreign languages in random places, which can essentially make the site chaotic and incomprehensible.

And why is separation of languages more important than proper organization of topics? Because, while data mixed up (like official pictures with fanart) adds noise for those who are looking for specific information, the whole thing can still be read from beginning to the end, conveying all the information contained. A section in a foreign language is just noise for anyone who doesn't happen to be speaker of that particular language, and we don't assume anyone to be such. Of course it is different from explaining things about a foreign language, which is the case with quoting. Consider this paragraph:

"Gżegżółka" is a folk name for the cuckoo in Polish. It is a famous word for Polish speakers, being an extreme exception to the rules of Polish orthography, which say that the ż sound should be always written as rz when after g. It also appears in tongue-twisters, such as "Dżdżystym rankiem gżegżółki i piegże, zamiast wziąć się za dżdżownice, nażarły się na czczo miąższu rzeżuchy i rzędem rzygały do rozżarzonej brytfanny." (On a rainy morning cuckoos and whitethroats, instead of taking earthworms, filled up their empty stomachs with the pulp of cress, and vomited in line to an incandescent baking pan).

Even though a significant part of it is in a language you probably don't understand, and possibly don't even have a clue how to pronounce it, it still conveys some new information for you. Moreover, omitting all the Polish in here would make a loss, because you wouldn't know what we are talking about. On the other hand, try to read this:

The Lesser Whitethroat is a common and widespread typical warbler which breeds in temperate Europe. Unlike many typical warblers, the sexes are almost identical. Piegża zwyczajna to mały ptak z rodziny pokrzewkowatych. Zamieszkuje Europę bez jej części zachodnich i południowych oraz poza północną częścią Półwyspu Skandynawskiego.

If you don't speak Polish, you may guess that those two pairs of sentences are about the same bird, but you may wonder, do they mean the same, or not, what's the difference, and why a Polish sentence is even here. Actually, a Polish speaker without understanding of English would feel the same. In fact, the Polish version conveys a different part of knowledge about that bird than the English one (which is inevitable on bilingual wikis, there's no way a complete synchronization can be achieved). And that's how it would look if we allow bilingual articles. Even when a foreign version would be neatly organized into a section, the first reaction for seeing a section named "Русский" for most people would be "why the hell those funny letters are here without any explanation?!". Like I said, it's a little less extreme if it's just one song translation, like at the moment, but just let's be realistic and predict what can happen if we just say "embrace foreign-language edits".

TL;DR: I don't have anything against other languages showing up on this wiki, but we have to organize it properly. My opinion is that if you want a Russian-language sub-wiki, you're more than welcome (unless the ones paying for the server have something against it ;) ). But please don't put your language just anywhere, bilingual articles are not good for anyone... --kFYatek 22:38, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see a difference in what is done here on this page and the Sailor Moon example that translates attack and transformation phrases into Russian. Both pages are primarily in English. The content being translated into Russian is also provided in English. It has a clear header in the table to describe what the content is to someone who doesn't know what it means and can bypass it. The reason that its own page is because the Sailor Moon over the years has developed an amount of content where it made sense to have separate pages for coverage in different languages. It makes no sense here when we have only have a translation for a set of lyrics that can easily fit on the only page that cover those lyrics. Subject and content-wise, it belongs on the same page. Here's another example [1]. Notice on the same page it describes the attack in two other languages. That use to be more common before they restructured it.

As for describing other languages as "noise," and somehow being an annoyance, let me remind you this is an international wiki based around a Japanese anime. That by definition means our fanbase is a community that is accustomed to the presence of multiple languages, and quite likely ones they aren't too terribly familiar with. There is no doubt in my mind that many of the people who visit this page would find the Japanese and Romanization columns text baffling or "noise," but we expect they can accept this and skip over it if they don't know it. The same would apply to other languages. And if they do know the language, then it's a plus, because that will give them with a better understanding of the content.

I don't know why it bothers you so much, or think it would bother people so much, to see the presence of text in a different language on the same page, when we do it all the time for Japanese and English content. Sometimes, I even post only Japanese content when we don't have English translation available, and I don't make a separate page for that content...I keep it on the same page because it's related by topic, which in my mind is the sensible thing to do. My belief is the people can skim over languages they don't understand and while it may be a minority who understands a non-English language, that minority benefits greatly from the presence of the language there.

I really do not like this attitude that seems to relegate non-English languages as "noise." Do you know offensive that sounds? To a community of wiki contributors and visitors, as I mentioned previously, who actually primarily speak in a language that isn't English? --randomanon 23:28, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

First, let me clear this case with the word "noise". Well, sorry to anyone who felt offended by it, I didn't mean anything pejorative by using it. I'll use an analogy. I have a radio, and there is a station which plays rock, and a station which plays hip-hop. I usually listen to rock, so when the frequencies of those two stations are too close to each other and I hear 2PAC over my beloved Metallica, it is noise to me. However, when one day I become curious or interested and decide to learn more about hip-hop and tune into the other station, the same "beloved Metallica" would become noise instead. I didn't mean to label any language as noise, I just meant that mixing languages is... just confusing.

About the Sailor Moon wiki. The Russian translations provided there are translations used by the official Russian dub that aired in Russian television. The article in question contains original English terms, Russian translations taken from the official translation (an outside source), and translations of them back to English, describing what the Russian translators changed, which can be interesting trivia for non-Russian-speaking fans. This page contains a fan translation of a song originally in Japanese. Moreover, a translation in English (the primary language of the wiki) generally accepted as good is already here. What value does that Russian translation have for non-Russian-speaking fan?

Like I already posted, the excerpts in foreign languages (mainly Japanese) that already are on this wiki, are quotations from original sources, which are usually posted alongside their translations, or are meant to be translated in future. While technically, to someone who speaks only English, the original foreign text being translated is equally useless as a foreign text which is translation from English, this is something different. Posting of the original text adds verifiability and is an aid to those who know the language and can improve the English translation.

Let me be clear with this once again: I'm not against the presence of foreign languages here. If it's just a single Russian translation of a single song, then it doesn't do any harm as well. If it would only be foreign translations of all the songs, then it also wouldn't be much of a problem. But saying "we embrace foreign languages, feel free to post" is troublesome. There's a reason why Wikipedia editions in different languages are so clearly separated. There's a reason why multilingual instruction manuals are ordered by languages and then by pages instead of the other way round. We can embrace foreign languages, but we need some proper organization in order to do so - sub-wikis, or at least sub-articles.

Well, just imagine a character article table of contents being like this:

• Official info
• Trivia
• Observation
• Speculation
  • Confirmed
  • Debunked
  • Unconfirmed
• Polski
  • Oficjalne informacje
  • Obserwacje i spekulacje
• Deutsch
  • Offiziell Information
  • Observation und Spekulation
• Русский
  • Официальные информации
• 日本語
• 中文
• Gallery
  • Official art
  • Fanart

Well... isn't that wrong? Wouldn't it be better for the Polish, German, Russian, Japanese and Chinese versions in this example to have separate pages and just be linked to? --kFYatek 01:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

"If it's just a single Russian translation of a single song, then it doesn't do any harm as well." Then we are in agreement that this is perfectly fine. And this is precisely the current situation we have now. I already explained in detail how we can proceed if the situation changes. For this specific page, if someone were to provide another translation in a different language, then we create a separate section, "Other Translations" and list them accordingly by language "Russian translation" and so on. Unlike you, I don't see how it's confusing to a fan of this site, who is already accustomed to seeing things in two different languages (this part being key) not to mention whatever other languages they know, to understand what a separate section in different languages means and to bypass it. Aside from your "I don't like my vegetables touching each other on my plate" kind of subjective opinion, you haven't given any reasonable reason why someone can be fine with seeing Japanese, fine with seeing English, but then any other language must cause confusion and the inability to accept its presence on that page.

As for your TOC example, please recognize that's nothing resembling the situation we have on the wiki right now, nor is it what we would do (despite all the Japanese we have on this site, none of it looks anything like that), nor is it what I proposed in any shape, way or form. I said in my posts, very clearly and even with examples, the following:

1) Like this example, if there's only one page on a topic, e.g. song lyrics and there's no problem with space, then it's perfectly fine to have other translations of the content that is also in English. This is the current situation we have now. You said you're fine with the single Russian translation. That's great, we are in agreement.

2) If the page content of another language is complex, lengthy etc. like with the Guidebook I gave as an example, or the Sailor Moon on all the differences related to Russian dubs, then that is made into a separate page. I don't think you're disagreeing with that.

3) I also said very specifically that if we should get many things in different languages, then we can reassess at that time (if we ever cross that bridge) and decide what to do then. I specifically proposed a "a separate section of the wiki" which is no different than what you're saying. If it were entire pages in a different language like with the Wikipedia, I'd probably say it should be a mirror site in that language. We're not saying anything different in a long term situation.

Basically, in terms of policy, the only point of disagreement we seem to have really have is you don't like seeing a different language on the same page with English and Japanese. You say it's because it's confusing. I look at that table that already has columns in Japanese, Romaji and English, and fail to see how someone can understand and accept those columns and then be confused by a column that's clearly labelled "Russian." Or, if we added a new section "Other Translations" and labelled the table translations in the same exact fashion, that someone could possibly be confused by what's going on.

Until you can give me an example where we have something in another language that is something we aren't already doing in Japanese (since you seem to have no problem with what we've been doing with that), I do not consider there to be an issue. I'm fine with re-opening the topic if translations in different languages becomes a problem on this site but for now, I don't see the problem. --randomanon 02:37, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not talking that I don't want to see other languages than English and Japanese. Russian is perfectly fine when quoting information about a possible Russian release, some interesting research originally done on Russian-language website, and so on. The point is, languages other than English are (in my opinion) justified when they are the source of some information, not a translation of something that already is here in English. If you don't see the difference, then we probably won't come to an agreement on this. --kFYatek 10:49, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

If we find an English-language fandub of And I'm Home we really like, could we maybe share it on the wiki?? 98.239.101.14 07:08, 28 April 2013 (UTC)Anon