Talk:Guidelines
~~~~) at the end of your comment.Discussion of Fansubs
The policy of not providing links to fansubs (or otherwise giving instructions for how to acquire copies of the show illegally) makes sense, and I don't think it should be changed. However, since the first introduction of English-speakers to the show came through unauthorized fan-translations, aspects of those translations can be relevant to understanding some discussions about the show. There's even an example of this on the current version of the Guidelines page: "However, due to gg using "Puella Magi" in their subs, that latin translation has been widely used, even on this wiki."
I think it would make sense to have a page on the choices made by different translations. Since it's a potentially sensitive issue, though, I'm raising the idea for discussion first.
-- above comment by NS 17:46, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see anything gained from this which will no doubt be subjective opinions about subs. What one person prefers, another dislikes. In addition, there's been sub groups who have released Madoka translations after the four that did it during the airing. So how many subs are you going to discuss since so many are available now. Not to mention, the official English dub (and of course accompanying sub) is in progress to be released by Aniplex USA. It's going to generally be perceived by the fanbase as superceding any fan dub. Let's say if it chooses "magical girl" like it did for the subs they made for the US premiere at the Otakon, then why would the fanbase care if one fansub group used "Puella Magi." "Magical girl" will be the standard. --randomanon 18:17, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't mean a discussion about which subtitles are best. What I think would be interesting to note are differences which demonstrate different interpretations of certain scenes and characters. Comparing them to the official translation (after it is completed) would show how fans' current understanding of the show has changed from when it was first airing.
- As far as "Who cares?", I think a page like this would have value for the same reason as the pages of old fan-speculation. -- preceding comment by NS 01:17, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- A lot depends on how the official subs turn out, since they may decide to take a highly localized approach, or they could do a good enough job that everybody takes it as canonical. I was thinking about starting a similar page a while ago, along the lines of translation notes, to cover lines that were topics of debate (energy) or rely on culture (the teacher's fried egg styles, or Manchu Han imperial feasts). Never did it partly due to lack of Japanese skills and partly because one fansub group emerged as reliable enough. As for the original question, my guess would be to treat it like the magazine translations. English lines just fell out of the sky, except when a neutral, newspaper-style "so and so did x" attribution is necessary. Avoid endorsing/advertizing/promoting or using screenshots of fansubs. The more it looks like academic criticism, the better. If all else fails, track down Homerun-chan. KM 03:00, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- Even if they're lousy, the official subs are the ones that are going to be on all the DVD (and BDs if they have them) being sold, broadcast etc. That's what the majority of the English-speaking fanbase will see and consider official. I would as well, even if I personally didn't think it was the best translation. Simply put, it's the commercially legal one vs. all fansubs which aren't. I also think you're underestimating how much a page like this will invite arguments and controversy over interpretations. Go to 4chan any time there's a discussion on Madoka sub groups and you'll see what I mean. Some subbers and their supporters are very active online. --randomanon 03:35, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- If the official English and the original Japanese contradict each other, or something is lost in translation, fans deserve to know the difference. As for fansubbers, I'm assuming we're talking about a page aimed at finding the best interpretations of lines and not "ha ha group x failed." If someone would try to force false information onto the community out of ego, that's all the more reason to correct them instead of censoring it. I'd be OK with doing something like translation 1 and translation 2 instead of names if that might help keep it objective. KM 07:03, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree on the first if the contradictions makes a difference. Most likely by then, I imagine we'll have either sections specific to (like on the episode pages) or even new pages on the American release, like one specific to its dubs. It makes sense those kind of differences can be pointed out there and more likely to be read as well. Re: the rest, as I stated, I doubt it'll be "false information" so much as debates on subjectivity. Japanese to English offers a wide range of interpretation that can sound very different but be equally valid depending on your criteria, same with sub styles. And to be frank, I'm not sure how many people on the wiki have the linguistic skill in both languages to evaluate accuracy. I don't think there's an issue of censorship here by choosing not to create a page. I don't think there's anything to be gained by having a page dedicated to fan subs when there's going to be a release on an official, legal English subs that will be the standard. In any case, "correct" interpretations of key moments and important scenes should already be incorporated in the episode pages. If there's a different "correct" interpretation based on different subs, then that can be pointed out on that page. You will then provide the same service to the fans, more likely be read (as those are popular pages) and avoid potential controversy, be it giving too much attention to what are afterall, illegal subs or drawing the attention of sub groups and their supporters. Once Aniplex USA's official English subs come out, that can be updated appropriately. --randomanon 16:59, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- Dividing it up on pages for the episodes and official releases once they come out sounds good. I don't think discussions on the subjective lines leading to lists of alternatives would get overly nasty or prone to vandalism, since the flamewars on 4chan (that aren't just trolling) usually arise from cases where there's a misunderstanding or error, and "group x is garbage"/"our way is funnier" starts up. KM 22:07, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree on the first if the contradictions makes a difference. Most likely by then, I imagine we'll have either sections specific to (like on the episode pages) or even new pages on the American release, like one specific to its dubs. It makes sense those kind of differences can be pointed out there and more likely to be read as well. Re: the rest, as I stated, I doubt it'll be "false information" so much as debates on subjectivity. Japanese to English offers a wide range of interpretation that can sound very different but be equally valid depending on your criteria, same with sub styles. And to be frank, I'm not sure how many people on the wiki have the linguistic skill in both languages to evaluate accuracy. I don't think there's an issue of censorship here by choosing not to create a page. I don't think there's anything to be gained by having a page dedicated to fan subs when there's going to be a release on an official, legal English subs that will be the standard. In any case, "correct" interpretations of key moments and important scenes should already be incorporated in the episode pages. If there's a different "correct" interpretation based on different subs, then that can be pointed out on that page. You will then provide the same service to the fans, more likely be read (as those are popular pages) and avoid potential controversy, be it giving too much attention to what are afterall, illegal subs or drawing the attention of sub groups and their supporters. Once Aniplex USA's official English subs come out, that can be updated appropriately. --randomanon 16:59, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- If the official English and the original Japanese contradict each other, or something is lost in translation, fans deserve to know the difference. As for fansubbers, I'm assuming we're talking about a page aimed at finding the best interpretations of lines and not "ha ha group x failed." If someone would try to force false information onto the community out of ego, that's all the more reason to correct them instead of censoring it. I'd be OK with doing something like translation 1 and translation 2 instead of names if that might help keep it objective. KM 07:03, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- Even if they're lousy, the official subs are the ones that are going to be on all the DVD (and BDs if they have them) being sold, broadcast etc. That's what the majority of the English-speaking fanbase will see and consider official. I would as well, even if I personally didn't think it was the best translation. Simply put, it's the commercially legal one vs. all fansubs which aren't. I also think you're underestimating how much a page like this will invite arguments and controversy over interpretations. Go to 4chan any time there's a discussion on Madoka sub groups and you'll see what I mean. Some subbers and their supporters are very active online. --randomanon 03:35, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- A lot depends on how the official subs turn out, since they may decide to take a highly localized approach, or they could do a good enough job that everybody takes it as canonical. I was thinking about starting a similar page a while ago, along the lines of translation notes, to cover lines that were topics of debate (energy) or rely on culture (the teacher's fried egg styles, or Manchu Han imperial feasts). Never did it partly due to lack of Japanese skills and partly because one fansub group emerged as reliable enough. As for the original question, my guess would be to treat it like the magazine translations. English lines just fell out of the sky, except when a neutral, newspaper-style "so and so did x" attribution is necessary. Avoid endorsing/advertizing/promoting or using screenshots of fansubs. The more it looks like academic criticism, the better. If all else fails, track down Homerun-chan. KM 03:00, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Image galleries
I see a flaw in that organization: where do we put image macros, such as that apples-no-apple-apples-again macro? In the "screenshot" section?
Also, we should add the case when images don't belong in any section ... --Homerun-chan 15:28, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- That's hard to say, since they're neither "screenshots" nor "fanart." I'd either put them into "screenshots" or an additional "miscellaneous" section, which would take care of those images that don't belong in any section. Momoism 16:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think we need an extra category for that kind of non-fanart analysis montages, for stuff such as that and half the Grief Seed page. --BrickBreak 16:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, that "Miscellaneous" section seems to solve both problems at once. Let's just hope it doesn't become as much of a clusterfuck as the galleries we have now... (by that I mean, let's hope people don't get lazy and put everything there) --Homerun-chan 16:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- I edited this page and the gallery template to reflect the addition of the Miscellaneous category, and to provide some examples of what should go in there. Anyone using it as a dumping ground will be summarily keel-hauled. Momoism 17:05, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, that "Miscellaneous" section seems to solve both problems at once. Let's just hope it doesn't become as much of a clusterfuck as the galleries we have now... (by that I mean, let's hope people don't get lazy and put everything there) --Homerun-chan 16:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think we need an extra category for that kind of non-fanart analysis montages, for stuff such as that and half the Grief Seed page. --BrickBreak 16:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
This page is pretty hidden at the moment, I wonder if new editors will be able to see it before their first edits. Would linking it in the main page or the sidebar be apt solutions? --BrickBreak 15:23, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- But it is linked on the main page, right in the second line under the logo... --KFYatek 15:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- /facepalm --BrickBreak 16:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- Actually it's interresting that you didn't see it: it shows how un-noticeable that link is. We could add a link to the guidelines at the bottom of the posting pages, just like the talkpage notice ("please sign your comments blah blah blah"), but we'll have to ask 0x99 to do it because I have no idea how he did it, and right now I don't have the time to look up for it ... --Homerun-chan 16:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- /facepalm --BrickBreak 16:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to mention that I've been seeing feedback from several sites now about confusion I'm seeing related to a mix of fanmade work with facts on the website. You may not be aware, but this site is linked on the Madoka threads on 2ch and referenced on other Japanese sites. Many people who aren't fluent with the English language visit because of the wiki's reputation in the past of accurate predictions and interesting analyses. However, now, they are getting confused by the humor of fanmade items and comments side-by-side on the same page of actual screenshots, facts, etc. I think the separation needs to be made very clear, especially for things like photo-shopped screenshots. For example, the Homura kissing Madoka one in episode 11, I've heard it come up multiple times as to whether it's real, why it's there etc. It should be clear enough that someone with only a basic understanding of English can understand what is canon to Madoka vs. say tongue-in-cheek fan humor etc. This also applies to visitors who haven't seen Madoka yet, so wouldn't be able to separate fact from fiction on their own. -randomanon 22:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- I reorganized and separated the fan art from the rest of the images and added the disclaimer. --Mutopis 00:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Ah that's cool. I didn't expect such a swift response...and wasn't even thinking the disclaimer would be re-used. Just explaining why I wanted to see us separate out the galleries as suggested in the guidelines by official art, sceenshots, fanart etc. From my perspective, having that done now is good, thanks. -randomanon 00:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- I moved the disclaimers to templates. Use
{{fanart}}for a big and certain ("everything") disclaimer, and{{fanartSmall}}for a smaller and less certain ("some") disclaimer. --kFYatek 02:29, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- I moved the disclaimers to templates. Use
- Reposting what I said on the template talkpage: is there really a need for a whole disclaimer? I mean, visitors were probably confused because everything was thrown in the same gallery; now that the galleries are structured (well, not every one yet, but I'm working on it), I think the section title is enough (fanart is explicit enough IMO). Addin a whole box explaining what fanart is, in every section that has fanarts, makes the pages look a little too overloaded to me --Homerun-chan 10:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Ah that's cool. I didn't expect such a swift response...and wasn't even thinking the disclaimer would be re-used. Just explaining why I wanted to see us separate out the galleries as suggested in the guidelines by official art, sceenshots, fanart etc. From my perspective, having that done now is good, thanks. -randomanon 00:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
A suggestion I consider important: to clearly indicate that all screenshots from the anime should be of high quality only and properly cropped. I've seen some members recently (well, not just now: this is a recurrent practice) uploading sceenshots with quality below acceptable, and it needs to be dealt with. A warning in the guidelines would be a good start, IMHO. --BrickBreak 20:08, 5 September 2011 (UTC)