Talk:Kriemhild Gretchen

Finale

Returning to Gretchen's card, how is this different from Madokami? Prima 07:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I suppose it's like doing something the "wrong way" versus the "right way"? Kriemhild makes a quick-and-easy but illusory utopia that does nothing to treat the root problem, while Madoka makes actual change that is not as complete or perfect as an idyllic dream but is more valid and done through less sinister means.--urutapu 08:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Like Urutapu says, Gretchen's method is "brutally murder everyone and everything that falls in its parameters for misfortune" whereas Madokami/Godoka addresses the problem without anyone needing to die (though we could argue her taking the grief away from mahou shoujos ultimately leaves their soul gems empty, and therefore, their next battle is almost assuredly their last). She didn't fix anything else about the world-- there is still tons and tons of unrelated misfortune. Just no more witches.

I would say that based on what we know from the card and the anime, we don't know if humanity is literally killed as they're absorbed into Gretchen's barrier, or instead absorbed and turned into familiars or sleeping in a dream state of an illusory utopia. Witches have been shown to both kill humans and deceive them, so either is possible. Regardless of which of those three scenarios occurs, there is no future for humanity...it's game over as they say. Whereas as we see at the conclusion of the anime, when magical girls lose themselves to grief and/or use up all their magical energy, Madoka visits them and prevents them from turning into witches by taking on the curse herself (which then becomes part of that huge meteor we see full of both hope and despair) and the magical girls disappear. The world is not cursed by the presence of witches killing people. Based on a recent interview, Shinbo indicated that what happens next is Madoka guides those magical girls to the next "universe" or it sounds like an afterlife of sorts, like we see happen with Sayaka in episode 12 after the violin concert. Unfortunately, because of some law that balances hope with grief, there arises demons in place of witches. But, while their origins are unknown, they are presumably not the product of fallen magical girls--like witches once were in the prior universe--before Madoka remade it. However, at least humanity can continue with an ongoing battle of good vs evil (magical girl vs demons) and not ending completely in superwitch Gretchen's barrier. -randomanon 23:36, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Gretchen VS Margarete in Goethe's Faust

I have a speculation about the name Gretchen/Margarete. Faust refers to the girl he loved as "Margarete" at the beginning. But then, suddenly, this changes to "Gretchen", a diminutive form of Margarete, after they had sexual intercourse. My teacher explained it this way: Margarete, meaning pearl, represents the purity and innocence of the girl. After their intercourse, the name change could represent the pollution of this purity; in the same way, i wonder if the choice of the name Gretchen instead of Margarete for Madoka's witch is due to the fact Madoka is also a pure and innocent girl, and the witch represents the corruption of her soul. Onpu-chan 17:22, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

No need to be shy, go ahead and post it on the real page, not just in the talk page. I see you're quite knowledgeable about Goethe, and that's good for speculating on this series! --KFYatek 18:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! I've just registered so i wasn't sure how far we're free to write our speculations. If i notice more connections between Goethe and Madoka, i'll be glad to post them! P.S. I'm not english mothertongue so my text in the page could contain a few mistakes, hope somebody can correct them for me. Thanks! ;) Onpu-chan 21:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

The assertion that in other timelines her name isn't Kriemhild Gretchen

I don't think this argument holds much weight. Even if her name is only displayed in one timeline, the fact that certain details don't seem to change significantly between timelines (magical girl costumes, witch appearances) makes me feel that it wouldn't be wrong to call her Kriemhild Gretchen across all timelines.--urutapu 07:33, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I actually realized that about both times she appears in ep10 and changed the page accordingly some time ago. However, in ep12 we see a totally different witch, so I'm not so sure in that case... --KFYatek 11:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I've made up my mind on this: it is not Gretchen. The grief that gave birth to it is not Madoka's, it's of the girls she saved: thus, it can be said that the witch is a chimera of all their grief, with Madoka being a mere conduit for it. --BrickBreak 22:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

She is like Walpurgis Night only in steroids. Imagine taking all those girls despairs of all time and introduce it into an enormous Soul Gem the size of a meteorite. What do we call her then? Super Witch Chimera Madoka Gretchen?... --Mutopis 23:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Episode 12 witch is not Kriemhild Gretchen

The Production Note clearly states episode 12 witch is witch that is nobody and was born from despair of all mahout shoujo in existent. Original wordings: [誰でもない魔女。全ての魔法少女の絶望から生まれた空気人形]. Should we fix the article? --0x99 04:24, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

. It's generally agreed that EP12 Witch isn't necessarily Gretchen but I still think that EP12 witch is Madoka's witch. Similarly to how Madoka became the very embodiment of every Magical Girl's hope, the Witch of Madoka became the embodiment of every Magical Girl's despair; thus manifesting itself as EP12 witch. Also, a Witch and a Magical Girl are only two sides of the same coin and thus one and the same. That's why when Madokami killed EP12 witch, she herself faded from known existence since she technically killed herself. Besides, it never explicitly said that EP12 Witch isn't Madoka. So yeah, we can just make a different section for EP12 witch but it's fine being under the Kriemhild Gretchen Page since it's still technically Madoka's witch. MochaCoffee 05:57, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Where are you looking exactly? I want to make sure it isn't something from the concept or proposal stage that got changed later on. Or even later than that...we know from interviews Inu-Curry was making changes even during the development phase that required the storyboards to get updated. --randomanon 06:41, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Bottom-right scan on this page, I believe. Neuchadjinys 07:24, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, see, we've had examples of designs and storyboards where what was decided in the anime differed. Like Sayaka's weapon, for instance, which they included in the Guidebook. I also noticed the Sakura church design is included as well, which differs from the design in the anime. Another example (not from the Guidebook) QB showing expression, before they decided he'd be expressionless. Inu-Curry in particular with witches made last minute changes which differed from what was in the storyboards. So it's possible we're looking at one of those cases. --randomanon 09:30, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Kyubey describes the comet in that scene with "That's the Soul Gem her wish has yielded." and that comet turns into the witch. So the possibilities seem to be: 1. It's "nobody witch" in the same way regular Gretchen is the "witch of salvation", so it's just describing Gretchen's altered style. 2. It's Madoka's witch, like Gretchen, except not named Gretchen because whatever it is that generates witch names got messed up by her wish. 3. It's a composite witch like Walpurgis, so even though the base is Gretchen, Gretchen ended up as just a part of a larger whole. 4. It's a completely different witch created out of pure grief and isn't the witch form of a magical girl, which wrecks every interpretation of that scene, the entire plot, and the witch mechanics. 5. They changed it, or that was a work in progress nickname instead of a canonical statement. KM 10:35, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I am reminded of Sayaka's witch (Oktavia) which had different familiars in the different timelines, sure her form remained the same, but there is nothing to say that a witch changes her name if it comes from the same person. It has also been pointed out that many changes took place before they had their final draft during production. I think for now we have to assume Madoka's witch will always have the same name no matter the changes in physical appearance, the nature of the witch and despair clearly remains the same... --Mutopis 16:10, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Witch of Salvation PSP

Is good to know we are getting more details from the PSP. Also, the chairs within her barrier may have something to do with this, I think its symbolic. --Mutopis 06:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

It's most likely a homage to Bokurano which features many similar themes - young kids sacrificing themselves for their universe - when a character dies in Bokurano, all that is left behind is a chair that represents them. You can read about other similarities on the Episode 9 page.--Mimihamburger 04:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

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I been wondering, should we add the psp pics to the page within the gallery section or should it be separate? These pics need to be on the page... --Mutopis 10:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

How about add a "Settings" section and use these pics as thumbnail (instead of gallery)? Also include an info we know from production note. --0x99 11:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)