Talk:Timelines/Magia Record Game/Before Arc 1

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Original History

Where is the evidence that this can be split into "original history" and "altered history"? There is definitely some weak evidence that it shouldn't be, and the only event I can think of that clearly implies the existence of something like an "original history" is Amaryllis's event, but that's not at all what you've done here. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 15:25, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

• The altered history is the things that were changed in tart events and in puella historia due to time travel. For example, Nemu confirms that Shizuka's actions changed history as Ebony was meant to die/become a witch. By their nature, the time travel shenanigans are self-contained as to not change the timeline, so their original versions, while vague and not having much information, should be written with the information known. Plus, Mikoto and Infinite Iroha would both have seen the girls from the future on the separate times they looked at the past if they were always meant to go back in time and do all that stuff. Don't even get me started on the tart events because I need to look at the original manga to see where everything would fit.Sweet Beanie (talk) 18:57, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

I feel like you've missed the point somehow. What does it mean for Nemu to "confirm" that Shizuka's actions changed history? Where is the proof that Puella Historia changed history at all? It seems to me that you see "time travel" and assume that history must have changed, but that's not a logical assumption at all. It's entirely possible to construct a time travel story in a way that doesn't change history in the slightest. So if you want to say that history changed, please show the evidence. (And please keep in mind that things said by Nemu can't be taken as hard facts. Though, it's still valid as soft evidence, but I'd prefer other forms of evidence.) To take your example of Ebony: if you want to say she became a witch in this "original history", then there must be something somewhere that showed that she became a witch. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 21:46, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for the evidence that history was changed by the Tart Magica events and Puella Historia. Certainly history was changed by Amaryllis's time travel, but I'm unaware of any evidence that the actions of Iroha and co have changed history. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 23:30, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

For now, I've deleted the "Original History" section. It can easily be restored if you can point to evidence that history was actually changed, and if not, the old revision is here and the information can be easily copy-pasted into the new "History" section wherever it belongs. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 19:02, 24 October 2025 (UTC)

First Tart event, this fragment is in current day Kamihama, after everything became dark:

いろは: 何か… 変化があったの…？
Iroha: Has...anything changed here?

さな: はい、そうなんです…！
Sana: Y-yes, it has!

さな: 外はまだ暗いんですけど… 少しずつ人が戻ってました…！
Sana: It's still really dark outside...but some people started coming back!

フェリシア: やったなっ！
Felicia: You did it!

いろは: やちよさん！
Iroha: Yachiyo!

いろは: 正しい歴史が戻りかけてきたって ことですよね？
Iroha: Does this mean we managed to restore some of the right timeline?

やちよ: そうね
Yachiyo: I think so.

やちよ: といっても… 本当の歴史には、ほど遠いけどね
Yachiyo: But it seems we still have a ways to go to get history back as it should be.

This one is very ambiguous. They're theorizing about what's happened, but the truth is left vague and muddy, likely on purpose. We can agree that people disappeared and later came back. We can agree that Iroha and Yachiyo theorized that to be because they'd changed history. But we don't know for sure that that was the cause. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 22:56, 24 October 2025 (UTC)

And another fragment, this one is in Tart's dreamscape in medieval France (Iroha and Yachiyo brought a book from the future with them):

いろは: ここで戦った神浜の魔女たちは 私たちの記憶のコピーなの？
Iroha: The Witches from Kamihama we fought here were copied from our memories?

キューブ: うん、そうだね そういう意味では
Qube: That's right. So in some ways...

キューブ: 未来が不安定になった原因は キミたち自身だと言えなくもない
Qube: You two are partially to blame for the instability of the future.

いろは: ええっ！
Iroha: What?!

やちよ: そうか…そうよね
Yachiyo: He's right.

やちよ: これは本来、タルトたちの時代に 終わっていた事件なのよ
Yachiyo: These events originally began and ended during Darc's era.

やちよ: それが何百年も経って コルボーのロウソクが見つかった
Yachiyo: But then hundreds of years passed, and Corbeau's candles were found.

やちよ: …それを私たちが手にして タルトの夢に入ったことで
Yachiyo: They ended up in our hands, and we entered Darc's dream.

やちよ: 過去が変わって 未来が揺らぎ始めたのね
Yachiyo: The past changed, and so the future became unstable.

キューブ: ひとつの可能性にすぎないけどね
Qube: That's just one possibility of course.

キューブ: キミたちが来た時点で 戦況はかなり悪かったわけだし
Qube: The war was already looking bleak by the time you two arrived.

キューブ: …ただ、魔女たちの出現が ダメ押しになったのかもしれない
Qube: However, the Witches that appeared may have pushed things over the edge.

-EPF (talk) 20:06, 24 October 2025 (UTC)

That one I was aware of, but there is other evidence in the same event that contradicts it (the telephone game reference when they talk to Mitama afterwards, questioning the original of the sweet dreams spell), so I don't think it can be taken as fact – rather, it is Kyuubey posing a hypothesis. Indeed, Kyuubey themself states it's "just one possibility". ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 22:54, 24 October 2025 (UTC)

I'm fine with consolidating them both into a fused timeline, as long as we make these clarifications about "how we don't know if history was altered by their actions, but any alterations ultimately fail to change the course of history or cause a paradox" or something of the sort. It helps that Iroha's original records of the timeline aren't super clear on what happened, (for example, even Ebony's survival is unclear as the record originally made the girls think that Cleopatra was the Magical Girl). Unfortunately the entire point of time travel stories in Record is that history can only be altered to the point of it not affecting the end result. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 07:55, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

But personally, I'm a bit confused. Since Mikoto, Iroha and co could see into the past, wouldn't they have seen the different people from the present talking to the girls of the past? They weren't there originally when Iroha went there to record it, nor did Mikoto see them and be like "huh, that's weird." Even the fact of why Kyubey doesn't interact with them is somewhat explained/waved away by Nemu in Pax Romana by basically saying "he can detect we're from the future so he's leaving us alone to not disrupt the timeline," (though I'm confused and call BS on that and even need to check the script out myself, though I guess Kagome's wish said "don't mess with the APS for all eternity so I guess this counts..?") so if history really wasn't altered, and they were always meant to go back to the past, I can't see why this wasn't ever acknowledged. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 07:55, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Personally, I would have placed the things of "the original history" in this article, into that of the original timeline. From my perspective, if we can't use something like Oktavia's timeline 3 witch card (which said that Kyosuke played the guitar this timeline) as canon, then why can't we take things like the production notes and runes of episode 11 and 12 as not necessarily canon? We never get hard evidence that Cleopatra and Himiko ever were Magical girls other than some runes with their names and production notes. Plus The Heiress of Yamatai even says that one of Himiko's ladies/friends was a Magical Girl when she warned Toyo against becoming a Magical Girl (this could be the episode 12 brown haired girl). We don't really have any confirmation that Himiko, Cleopatra, Amaryllis etc. didn't happen in the original timeline, we just know that Iroha and co wouldn't have been there. Additionally, there's official art of Tart as a magical girl with the buzzcut they give her and her transformed with that buzzcut, but that doesn't disprove Tart Magica. I would suggest we move the fact that Himiko and Cleopatra were magical girls into trivia or theory sections of some sort, and have what is listed here as the "original history" into the main universe's timeline and leave the altered history with the historia girls here. There's many alteratives we can take with this. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 08:09, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Okay, you've brought up a bunch of evidence, so that's good. I don't think any of it can be called strong evidence, but let me go through it bit by bit.

• Iroha's "original record", which I assume refers to the information rumour-Nemu has to go on about each of the 6 events, never mentioned the time travellers. However, that record was vague anyway. Perhaps Iroha did pick up the presence of the time-travellers, but that information just didn't make it into the record for one reason or another (interference from the Symbol Witch maybe?). Still, we can take this as soft evidence that history may have been changed. We still don't have anything on what the hypothetical "original history" may have been though.
• I don't think the question of why Kyuubey doesn't interact with them can be taken as fact. It sounds more like a wild guess from Nemu to me. That just means we have no idea why he doesn't interact with them. Though, as you mention, the chance of it being due to Kagome's wish is non-zero, if you take "all of eternity" to extend to the past as well. In any case, I don't think this question has any bearing on whether or not history was altered.
• I think the runes with Cleopatra's and Himiko's names are already pretty decent evidence that they may have been magical girls. I suppose you do have a point that it's not hard proof, so we could soften the note in the original universe to say they were likely magical girls. I notice that this fact is also in the "unproven speculation" section on the Episode 12 page, but I don't know if there's a good reason for that. Do we have other evidence that they definitely were, other than production notes or Word of God?
• What's this about an episode 12 brown-haired girl? I took a quick look but I don't see anyone who fits that description and could plausibly be linked to Himiko.
• Was Cleopatra and Himiko not being magical girls the sole point that led to us deciding there were two distinct histories? I sort of thought I remembered at least one other reason. But, that said, taking the time travel as the dividing factor is not the worst thing to do… we do know that Iroha and Ui and Touka and Nemu probably didn't contract in the original universe, and there's possibly even some evidence that the Wings of the Magius actually formed before the time loops started (which doesn't make sense though, as Homura should've seen them every time if that were the case… unless they somehow self-imploded around March/May 16 most of the time?)

~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 14:41, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Sorting things out

It was getting a bit long, so I thought it'd be better to sort things out one by one here. We have two main theories: the stable timeline theory, or the altered timeline theory. I'll start small. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

I'm going to comment on your individual points, then. Otherwise, it'll just get super confusing. I'm guessing that's why you included your signature multiple times anyway. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 19:19, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

The validity of Production Notes

I'd call Production notes, witch cards, (and even informal interviews) as "soft canon," meaning they are canon until something happens in the story to disprove it. We all know the infamous Oktavia guitar witch card, but that is treated as trivia, or a possibility instead of hard canon. We've previously agreed on this, and looking at other things that were changed like Suleika's, Nagisa's and Tart's designs between the notes and final result, I think that's okay to do. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Following that logic:

Himiko

• 
• 
• 

The brown haired girl in episode 12 is in the photo below. Her soul gem is also in the production notes labeled as Himiko. If we go forward with the logic that that can't be taken as definitive proof, then wouldn't that make the Himiko in the original timeline and the one in Magia Record the same person?

I propose that with Puella Historia we at least get some glimpses into their history, at least until the arrival of the Historia girls potentially changed things.

I think the brown haired girl is the shrine maiden Himiko mentioned, which would also tie into the production notes, while Himiko never turned into a magical girl in any timeline. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

It's no wonder I didn't know who you were talking about, because to me, that girl very obviously has black hair, not brown. I'm honestly confused how you could interpret that as brown. (Using an eyedropper in an image editor does not count – the colour of the actual pixels is not necessarily indicate the perceptual colour of the hair itself.) Anyway, that is definitely the girl who was interpreted as Himiko, and there was clearly a good reason to do so – the runes for "HIMIKO" seem to appear in Episode 11 (though it's cut off, so you can only see the first 3 letters), and thus it was inferred that the two scenes depict the same person (though there is no hard proof – the woman performing the ceremony in Episode 11 and the girl in the fire in Episode 12 are similar enough to be the same person, but not similar enough that we can say they're definitely the same person). So, even without referencing production notes, there is weak evidence that she was intended to be Queen Himiko. Still, without the production notes, we have no proof that she is, in fact Himiko - only that she has some association with Himiko, which Toyo obviously satisfies. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 19:46, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Himiko was also namedropped in Runes in Episode 11, and the building was shown burning. The character design is quite similar to Ep12 Himiko. You might say, "it suggests, but doesn't prove anything", but come on. Occam's razor, why would a non-magical girl be shown during a scene where Kyubey explains involvement of magic in history, then the next episode, a strikingly similar girl with references to the same legend appears again? Same with Cleopatra EPF (talk) 19:20, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Below are subs for that fragment of Ep11. EPF (talk) 19:24, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

I'll highlight most important lines:

It's a cycle which many magical girls have repeated. This includes girls who have changed history forever and led your society to new stages.

If none of you ever came to this world... You'd probably still be unclothed living in caves, I suppose.

It would make no sense for these lines to be paired with those visuals if the takeaway was "randos who never even made it into history books that were in vague proximity of important people are what shook history up". That's a huge leap. "Many women who shook history up were Magical Girls" is significantly more sensible. Nobody would have argued "oh, it's not Himiko, it's some rando who was around her" was it not for Puella Historia. EPF (talk) 19:35, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Dialogue: 4,0:04:33.04,0:04:35.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sayaka-chan and Kyouko-chan died.
Dialogue: 4,0:04:37.59,0:04:39.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's not really that surprising.
Dialogue: 4,0:04:39.84,0:04:42.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There have been signs, that everything would turn out this way, for a while now.
Dialogue: 4,0:04:42.88,0:04:44.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you don't care?
Dialogue: 4,0:04:44.80,0:04:47.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But everyone died because of you!
Dialogue: 4,0:04:49.72,0:04:53.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just to put an example out there, do you feel like you're inferior to a group of cattle?
Dialogue: 4,0:04:53.98,0:04:57.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do you even know how the food comes to sit on your table?
Dialogue: 4,0:05:03.49,0:05:04.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Stop it!
Dialogue: 4,0:05:05.56,0:05:07.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Responding that way doesn't make any sense.
Dialogue: 4,0:05:07.66,0:05:12.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you think what I just showed you was cruel,\Nthen you don't understand what's really going on.
Dialogue: 4,0:05:14.58,0:05:17.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,By choosing to become part of a human household,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.29,0:05:21.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they breed free from opposing natural forces and are sheltered from survival of the fittest.
Dialogue: 4,0:05:22.42,0:05:28.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Cows, pigs, and birds, compared to wild animals,\Ngenerally have a reproductive rate far better than the rest.
Dialogue: 4,0:05:29.23,0:05:33.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wouldn't you say you humans have the perfect symbiotic relationship with them?
Dialogue: 4,0:05:33.85,0:05:35.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Are you trying to say you're the same?
Dialogue: 4,0:05:36.19,0:05:42.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Actually, we're treating you humans much fairer than you treat cattle.
Dialogue: 4,0:05:42.40,0:05:47.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,While this may not be the best arrangement, we recognise that you are sentient beings when we negotiate with all of you.
Dialogue: 4,0:05:48.74,0:05:50.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You don't believe me?
Dialogue: 4,0:05:50.80,0:05:52.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How about I show you then?
Dialogue: 4,0:05:53.19,0:05:57.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'll show you the history through which the Incubators and humanity have walked together.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:07.97,0:06:12.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We got involved with your world before your recorded history.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:13.31,0:06:17.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Countless numbers of girls have formed contracts with Incubators,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:17.23,0:06:20.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had their hopes realised, and lost themselves to despair.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:22.27,0:06:25.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It starts with a wish or desire and ends with them being cursed or falling into despair.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:25.69,0:06:29.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a cycle which many magical girls have repeated.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:30.28,0:06:35.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This includes girls who have changed history forever and led your society to new stages.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:36.87,0:06:38.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Stop it already!
Dialogue: 4,0:06:40.17,0:06:43.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Everyone... Everyone trusted you.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:43.56,0:06:46.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They trusted you and you betrayed them!
Dialogue: 4,0:06:46.33,0:06:49.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We were not the ones to betray them.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:49.38,0:06:51.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was their own desire.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:52.51,0:06:56.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No matter the desire, if it's something irrational,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:56.42,0:06:59.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then it will always distort reality in some way if it comes true.
Dialogue: 4,0:06:59.77,0:07:03.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then it's obvious that natural law dictates that only bad could eventually come from that.
Dialogue: 4,0:07:03.48,0:07:06.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you want to call the result of that action "betrayal",
Dialogue: 0,0:07:06.64,0:07:10.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then having the wish in the first place would be the mistake.
Dialogue: 4,0:07:11.28,0:07:14.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I won't call it foolish.
Dialogue: 4,0:07:14.20,0:07:19.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You could also say their sacrifices have\Nfurther advanced the story of human history.
Dialogue: 4,0:07:25.25,0:07:28.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thus all the tears shed until now have led to the foundation...
Dialogue: 0,0:07:28.99,0:07:32.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,...on which your current society is based, your current style of life.
Dialogue: 4,0:07:34.68,0:07:36.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you understand that,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:36.87,0:07:41.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then how can you treat the fate of a few humans, at most, differently than the rest of humanity's?
Dialogue: 4,0:07:42.23,0:07:46.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Have you felt nothing watching all of those girls all this time?
Dialogue: 4,0:07:47.11,0:07:51.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Didn't you try to understand just how much they were going through?
Dialogue: 4,0:07:51.74,0:07:54.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If we were able to understand,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:54.21,0:07:57.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we wouldn't have had to go out of our way to come to this planet in the first place.
Dialogue: 4,0:07:58.29,0:08:04.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In our civilisation, the phenomenon you call emotions is regarded as nothing more than an extremely rare mental disorder.
Dialogue: 4,0:08:04.42,0:08:08.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's why we were surprised when we found you humans.
Dialogue: 4,0:08:08.00,0:08:12.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The existence of a world where every single individual carries their own emotions...
Dialogue: 0,0:08:12.49,0:08:15.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,...and coexists never even crossed our minds.
Dialogue: 4,0:08:15.59,0:08:20.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If none of you ever came to this world...
Dialogue: 4,0:08:20.02,0:08:24.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You'd probably still be unclothed living in caves, I suppose.

Though, calling Toyo "some rando who was around her" is kind of crazy! That description does fit Ebony in relation to Cleopatra, but Toyo was literally Himiko's daughter, not "some rando". ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 20:17, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

True, I was thinking more Himiko-Shrine Maiden and Cleopatra-Ebony than Himiko-Toyo. Toyo has a non-negligible historical relevance, though iirc she's less documented than Himiko anyway EPF (talk) 20:36, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

I'll just continue here for convenience. Idk the hair always seemed brown to me, and it also appears different to this other mural Kyubey showed of Himiko, whose hair color (at least to me) matches with her hair color in Magia Record. Though looking at Tart's appearance in those, we can see that these murals aren't supposed to be 100% factual to what happened anyway. Regardless, I just don't particularly see the runes in Episode 11 as smoking gun type of evidence that Himiko was a Magical Girl. I believe they intended that when making episode 11 and 12 but chose to confirm a different direction with Historia. It borders on a retcon, but since they never confirmed it, I don't see it as such. Plus with the Occam's razor rule, it seems way more of a stretch to me to say that "Himiko was a Magical Girl in one universe but not the other for some reason," than saying "The shrine maiden seen with Himiko in Episode 11/12 (because ignoring production notes and the already-inconsistent Kyubey murals, we can only confirm that she is a Shrine Maiden Magical Girl in a burning building) was the same Shrine Maiden she mentioned to Toyo in Puella Historia." If both Ebony and this shrine maiden wished for the success of their queens, I don't see how they would be randos. In general, I'm just not a fan of "something is different in this universe and not the other." ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 09:16, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

• 
• 

Ok. What's your explanation on Kirika's gravestone vs bald parrot discovery. Why is the year 2011 in one timeline but 2019 +- 5ish years in others. I'm waiting. While we're at it, why is Madoka's first time visiting Kamihama simultaneously with Mami way before A1A5, and with Homura in Madoka's MSS. EPF (talk) 11:43, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Time in Madoka Magica has always been treated as a vague "near future." Director Shinbo directly described the setting as 'in the near future, or a distant future' in an interview. Oriko has other differences too, such as Mami's soul gem shape, that were rectified in the retelling Sadness Prayer. The original Oriko Magica uses the year 2011 because it was published in 2011 and sadness prayer intentionally lacks this detail. The timeline, especially in spin-offs, is "floating," being updated to feel contemporary with its release date rather than being anchored to 2011. It's like how the Sailor Moon manga had them using flip-phones while Sailor Moon Crystal has updated it to smartphones. Phones also change between releases of events and latest Madoka media to be consistent with the latest real-world details. As for the other details with Magia Record, I also fail to see how this is important to the discussion. The real-world answer is that the story was going through rewrites and some things slipped through the cracks, but all these things are much smaller details than the identity of a main character in an event that required the authors to do a lot of research on real-world history. There's a reason these characters were picked and it was because they looked similar to the girls in episode 12 (the egyptian, the ancient japanese, the volcano/pompeii girl, the viking, the tibetan girl), and the same burning building girl was also seen in Ultimate Madoka's magia attack too. Not making Himiko and Cleopatra Magical Girls was deliberate. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 12:19, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

It might be true that that was the reason they picked them, but if that was their goal, they really shouldn't have totally redesigned the characters to the point that they absolutely can't be the same girls. Himiko and Cleopatra aside, the viking girl in Episode 12 can't possibly be Olga (and even less likely to be Gunhild); the volcano girl probably can't be Amaryllis; and the Tibetan girl… okay, that one we never see in magical girl form in Episode 12, so I guess she almost could be Heruka, but the context we see her in still doesn't seem to match what we know of how she died. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 15:54, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

I didn't mean those same girls, just parallels to them to make more parallels between Infinite Iroha and Ultimate Madoka. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 19:19, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Also, I said rando and I mean rando. "Historical figure that even children at school are expected to learn about" is quite different from "someone who happened to be next to the figure, that impacted their actions, but not even this time travel story gives them a proper name, and that nobody remembers centuries later". This hypothetical shrine maiden is a rando, even if she let Himiko become queen. EPF (talk) 11:43, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

I see were you're coming from but again, this really isn't strong evidence to say that that girl was Himiko. I don't think it was a coincidence that they had Himiko mention someone she knew who made a contract, nor can we take soft canon to rule out hard canon that already exists. It's much more of a stretch to assume that Himiko was a Magical Girl in one timeline and not the other, than it is to say that that wasn't really proven to be Himiko to begin with and there are no contradictions in the hard canon. Plus the appearance of both Himikos is different if we're to assume the burning girl is Himiko (hell, even the Himiko mural has her look different from the burning girl to me). To sum it all up: the rune murals Kyubey showed Madoka just said the name Himiko, and if we look deeper into it, they were already inconsistent with what Tart shows us anyway. Plus production notes were already noted as inconsistent for many things. Looking at it at face value only shows us that there's a girl in a burning building who was associated with Himiko. Looking at Puella Historia, it doesn't even disprove that that girl existed either. (Also just in case if Cleopatra is brought up, let's continue the discussion about her here too) ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 12:19, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Okay, first of all, I don't see why it's such a stretch for Himiko to be a magical girl in one universe but not in another. We already know that Iroha is a magical girl in one universe and not in another. Why is it so strange that she's not the only one?

Next, I note you posted the Fate Weave shard showing the image suspected to be Himiko. That both confirms beyond shadow of a doubt that her hair is indeed black (and not brown) and also gives fairly strong evidence that she is the same girl seen in the Kyuubey mural. When we see her in Episode 12, she's only holding her soul gem in a burning building, but in that shard, she's holding the same ritual fan you see in the mural. It's true the two of them look different, but the mural is highly stylized, so I think most of the differences can be put up to simply a matter of art style.

You can't really use inconsistency with Tart Magica as an argument, as Tart Magica (just like Puella Historia) was made later. That said, I'm not sure what inconsistencies you're even seeing. If it's something like the colour of her hair in the praying pose, I think that can be put up to a matter of art style. If it's the length of her hair, that's honestly pretty minor, and it can likely be explained away by "it grew out during her campaign and then she cut it" or "this scene happened before Caroline died". These minor discrepancies could also be explained by Kyuubey not reporting events from its personal perspective but rather from the perspective of the history books.

Anyway, you do have a point that they may have intended Himiko's mention of a shrine maiden as referring to the girl in Episode 12. However, that's still a very weak argument, as magical girls are simply a fact of this universe so it's not strange for them to come up; and I'd say it's a little weaker than the runes in Episode 11. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 15:54, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

I agree with the murals part. The murals were highly stylized and made before Tart Magica and co were created, which is why the mural in Magia Record anime 23 actually depicts Tart as she was in the manga. The point I was trying to make is that the murals shouldn't be taken as hard proof and I was using Tart's very different appearance, armor and long hair to point to that.

The reason why Iroha was a Magical Girl in one universe and not the other is because she died in the other one before she had the chance to. Magia Record isn't different just because Iroha became a Magical Girl, but rather the fact that she survived to begin with. Himiko is alive in both but never saw Kyubey in one of them, even when he was in the same room and talking to Toyo. Even Scene 0 clarifies that the reason Sayaka didn't become a Magical Girl the first timeline was because she was killed by a Familiar before she was able to meet Kyubey. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 16:49, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

I think you may be jumping to conclusions in a couple of ways here.

1. Scene 0 did clarify that Sayaka died in some timelines, so she wasn't able to become a magical girl in those timelines, but I don't think that implies that her death is the sole thing that could get in the way of her being a magical girl. Admittedly, I'm not aware of any timelines that depict her as alive but not getting offered a contract, but still.
2. Himiko could've received the offer to become a magical girl in both histories, but in the Puella Historia case, she rejected the offer. That could mean she can't see Kyuubey in Puella Historia because she no longer qualifies to be a magical girl (she's now too old). Though, I will admit that this theory has some issues – if I recall correctly, her reaction in that scene didn't let on any hint that she knew what Kyuubey is.
3. We still don't know how girls obtain the potential to become a magical girl. Maybe there was one big decision that went differently in the Puella Historia case, and because of that, Kyuubey decided she doesn't qualify.
4. There is ample evidence to suggest that Kyuubey is far from omniscient – just because a girl has potential, that doesn't mean it would notice. Maybe Kyuubey failed to notice her potential in the Puella Historia timeline. This one seems difficult to defend though, as she's the queen of a country – if she were some nobody, it would make more sense.

But to sum up, there's too much we don't know to be able to conclude that the only way for someone to become a magical girl in one timeline and not another is for her to die in the other timeline.

In fact, Yuma and Koito are both examples of people who were magical girls in one timeline and not another. We do have evidence that Yuma died in at least one timeline, but we also have evidence of her moving in with her grandparents and apparently not becoming a magical girl. We know nothing of what happened to Koito in timelines other than Oriko Magica, but there's no reason to think she would've died in those timelines. We also see no sign that she became a magical girl in any other timeline. So, with Iroha, that makes three known cases already. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 18:21, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, Sayaka doesn't contract in the scene 0 Nagisa timeline because she got hurt and realized it's too dangerous, plus a few timelines where Mabayu cuts out her memory of Kyosuke's breakdown so she doesn't. But she's still offered a contract. For point 2, I think we're now jumping through too many loops, especially since that's not really how it works. In Film MT, Kyubey becomes aware of Mabayu only when he realizes she can see him, but he may have been lying about that just to get her and Mami to meet "naturally" (but her potential was already weak so why would he). Regardless, Himiko hadn't seen Kyubey in Historia (she was pretty important and he apparently saw her associate but we move) and we know from Shi's mother that adults' potential goes down drastically and they may eventually even lose it entirely and not see Kyubey at all for all we know. In the end, I don't think the Historia Himiko ever got the chance to be a Magical Girl and I don't think that the shrine burning girl is a Himiko either, but anyway I have an idea on how this can be settled.

To conclude this, I have a proposal in mind: If an event is unimportant for that timeline, it doesn't get mentioned in its history (after all we can't confirm nothing). For example, even if Heruka's story happened in every universe, if it doesn't matter in any of the ones other than Record, it won't get mentioned there. However, I don't think we can say without a shadow of a doubt that Himiko and Cleopatra were Magical Girls in the original timeline and I think that should be moved to trivia just like Oktavia's third timeline witch card. Do I have approval for this? ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 19:19, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

I did say point 2 was a stretch for the specific case of Himiko. Point 3 is probably the only one that could fit for this specific case. I do think that it's reasonable not to mention the new Puella Historia girls at all in the main history. We have no reason to think they didn't exist in that timeline, but we're also not told anywhere that they did exist.

But this doesn't apply to Himiko and Cleopatra, as we have Episodes 11 and 12 clearly showing them, and this, along with the runes showing part of their names, seems like much stronger evidence than a tiny reference squirrelled away on a witch card. So, I think they should definitely be mentioned in the timeline, and I think it should definitely at least say that they might have been magical girls. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 19:28, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

I agree, I think it's fair to say that they might have been Magical Girls, I never intended on wiping them completely. I'll get started on the article in the morning. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 21:45, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Cleopatra

Cleopatra is much easier to dismiss, as she was never shown to be a magical girl. We never even get a soul gem design for her either. Puella Historia once more gives a pretty solid story as to why Cleopatra was associated with Magical Girls.

My point for both of these is that we should be allowed to move the historical events in Puella Historia (without the involvement of the historia girls) into the original timeline, where Madoka Magica takes place. What we are left with is vague, but it would solve our problems. Magia Record gets the timeline with the time traveling girls while the original timeline gets Pompeii. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

The argument for Cleopatra is essentially the same as the argument for Himiko: her name appears in runes in the scenes depicting her in Episode 11. Again, it's cut off, so you only see the first 3 letters, but given the associated scenes, I don't think it could be anything else. So there is clearly weak evidence that Cleopatra was a magical girl. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 19:50, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Oh, and if you're suggesting Amaryllis's time travel splits the timeline into the one where Cleopatra and Himiko become a magical girl and the one where Ebony and Toyo become a magical girl, that won't work – first of all, the eruption of Vesuvius that buries Pompeii occurs in 79 AD, over a century after Cleopatra's death in 30 BC. (Himiko, who lived around 200 AD, doesn't have this problem.) But even if you didn't have that problem, it still doesn't work, because the events of Amaryllis's original timeline just in Pompeii do not match real-world history – Pliny's rescue party never came (or came too late), and everyone in Pompeii died. And I think it's too much of a stretch to suppose that this is a truth of the anime timelines. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 19:55, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

No, no. I didn't mean that Amaryllis caused a timeline split. Her timeline stuff wrote over itself so it's good. I just meant that Amaryllis, Heruka, Olga, etc. also existed/happened in the anime timeline. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 20:05, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Well, she did cause a timeline split though. Just not that timeline shift. But I do think it's totally reasonable to assume that Amaryllis, Heruka, Olga, Gunhild, Tsuyu, and Chizuru both existed and contracted in the original timeline. When it comes to Ebony and Toyo though, it's more ambiguous, as the anime clearly implies that Cleopatra and Himiko were magical girls. That doesn't rule out a possibility that Ebony and Toyo were also magical girls, and technically it doesn't outright contradict a possibility that Cleopatra and Himiko weren't magical girls, but... as I said, it's ambiguous. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 20:21, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

I said the important stuff about this in the Himiko section just now.~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 09:16, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Alterations

I think this statement of yours starts getting us into some really big theory talk instead of just taking the text at face value.

Perhaps Iroha ''did'' pick up the presence of the time-travellers, but that information just didn't make it into the record for one reason or another (interference from the Symbol Witch maybe?). Still, we can take this as soft evidence that history ''may have been changed''. We still don't have anything on what the hypothetical "original history" may have been though.

Part of the original history, at least for some of the girls such as Ebony and Heruka, is known in their personal MSS stories which show what they were doing before the Kamihama girls came along.

Below are some texts which show that, at least to the audience and the characters, the fact that major events in the past can't be changed, should be taken at face value. However, Nemu also says that the universe has a way of fixing small issues, and as long as no major points in history are changed, then things should be fine. This means that in history, Heruka was burned as a Rakshasi, Gunhild became a Witch that Olga had to defeat, Amaryllis saved most of Pompeii, etc.

Heiress of Yamatai:

ねむ: …むしろ、レナが所有者だと@名乗り出て変に探られる方が危険
Nemu: …It would be riskier if Rena came forward as the book’s owner, and got probed with questions.

ねむ: ヒミコならちょっとした言葉で@何かに気づくかもしれない
Nemu: Himiko might catch on to something from the slightest word.

レナ: この時代にない知識を与えるのも@歴史の改変になるから
Rena: It would also be altering history to give them knowledge that wasn't available at this time.

レナ: 避けないといけないってわけね
Rena: So we have to do our best to avoid it.

ねむ: …その様子だと、後先考えず@好き勝手やってるみたいだけど…
Nemu: …From the looks of it, you've been doing whatever you want with no regard for the consequences...

ねむ: …案外何も問題は起きてないから@引きつづきトヨのそばにいて
Nemu: ...And yet surprisingly, nothing has gone wrong, so just keep staying close to Toyo.

Rakshasi of Tibet:

アレクサンドラ: あの…少しでも@助けてあげることは…
Alexandra: Um…if we could help people in some way…

ねむ: 気持ちはわかるけれど@過度な干渉は避けないと駄目だよ
Nemu: I understand your feelings, but we must refrain from over-interference.

ねむ: 大きく歴史を変えることになれば@僕達の未来も変わるからね
Nemu: If we make too great a change in the course of history, the future will be changed as well.

ラビ: それで、あなたの宿る本に従えば@私たちは何をするべき？
Rabi: So what should we do according to that book you reside in?

ラビ: ドルマさんの話が本当なら…
Rabi: If what Dolma said was true…

ラビ: ラクシャーシーは@ヘルカさんだと思う
Rabi: Then I think Rakshasi must be Heruka.

ラビ: そう考えると…私はドルマさんに@協力するべきではない
Rabi: Considering that… I shouldn’t help Dolma with her plan.

ねむ: 歴史が余計に@変わってしまうからね
Nemu: It would be an unnecessary change of history.

ラビ: …………
Rabi: …

ねむ: …ヘルカを魔法少女にさせない@なんて思ってはいけないよ
Nemu: …There’s no way to prevent Heruka from becoming a Magical Girl.

ねむ: それは歴史の改編であり@やってはいけないことだからね
Nemu: It would be rewriting the past, which is something we mustn't do.

ラビ: …わかっている
Rabi: ...I understand.

Valkyrie of Vik:

ひかる: キュゥべえがオルガさんに 近づかないように…
Hikaru: We gotta keep Kyubey away from Olga...

ひかる: 見つけ次第、ことごとく ひかるたちで…！
Hikaru: As soon as we find him, we'll handle everything…!

ねむ: それは僕から止めさせてもらうよ
Nemu: I'm afraid I can't let you do that.

ねむ: 間接的な歴史干渉に なる可能性がある
Nemu: Doing so may indirectly interfere with history.

ひかる: キュゥべえはキュゥべえ じゃないっすか！
Hikaru: Kyubey is Kyubey, ain't he?!

ひかる: 歴史と関係なんか…！
Hikaru: What's he got to do with history?!

ねむ: ないかもしれない
Nemu: Perhaps nothing.

樹里: あ？だったらいいだろ
Juri: Huh? Then why are you stoppin’ us?

ねむ: でも、関係があるかもしれない
Nemu: Because we don't know for certain if stopping him will change history or not.

ねむ: どちらの可能性もある以上 手を出すのは賢明じゃないよ
Nemu: It's unwise to meddle with either possibility.

結菜: 特に魔法少女の因果を背負う者は 歴史に影響するかもしれないわぁ
Yuna: In particular, those who bear the fate of Magical Girls may be deeply entwined with history.

Mirage of Alexandria:

エボニー: …え？さっきからだけど…@もしかして…それから声が…？
Ebony: …What? Just a little while ago… Could it be that…YOU were that voice…?

ちはる: そうなんだけど…@このことも後でね…！
Chiharu: She is, but…look, we'll explain that later!

ねむ: それに、彼女を助けることは@歴史の干渉になりかねない
Nemu: Moreover, helping this girl may disrupt the course of history.

ねむ: それはご法度だよ
Nemu: And that is strictly forbidden.

静香: 欠片は、回収しきれたの？
Shizuka: But have we finished collecting Iroha's concept?

ねむ: それは…まだだね
Nemu: …We have not.

静香: だったら、この後も@エボニーを追う必要がある、と
Shizuka: Then that means we need to keep following Ebony, yes?

ねむ: …その通り
Nemu: …Correct.

静香: ところで、私たちは既に@ここまで関わってしまった
Shizuka: Not to mention, everything we've already done…

静香: それは歴史の干渉にならないの？
Shizuka: Doesn't that already count as interfering with history?

ねむ: お姉さんの監視対象を絞るための@やむを得ない対応だったし…
Nemu: We had no choice but to carry those things out in order to narrow down the scope of Iroha's surveillance.

ねむ: 歴史を改変するクリティカルな@行動はなかったと判断している
Nemu: I have determined that nothing we've done has critically altered history in any way.

ねむ: ただ、今はこうして@事の真相を突き止めた
Nemu: But now that we have verified the truth,

ねむ: もはや無理に干渉すべきではない@距離を置いて追うべきだ
Nemu: we cannot interfere any longer. It's best we observe at a distance.

静香: こんなにも@話し込んでしまった上でも？
Shizuka: Even after we've discussed so much?

ねむ: 上でも、だよ@今が線を引くタイミングだ
Nemu: If anything, now is when we must draw a line.

ねむ: …やれやれ…
Nemu: …Good grief.

静香: 歴史の大きな流れは@変わっていないんでしょ？
Shizuka: As long as we don't alter major historical events, then we're fine, right?

静香: だったら、そこには@触れないようにすれば…！
Shizuka: Then as long as we don't touch them…!

ねむ: しかし…
Nemu: But…

静香: それに！環さんだったら決して@エボニーを放っておかない！
Shizuka: And besides! If you were in our position, you would never abandon Ebony!

静香: …私は、そう思うの…
Shizuka: …At least, that's what I think.

ねむ: …………
Nemu: …

ねむ: 可能性の枝葉は無限大に@広がっている…
Nemu: The branches of possibility spread outwards infinitely…

ねむ: だけど、選ぶべきルートは@確率として無難な方のはず…
Nemu: The route we should choose ought to be the one with the least risk…

ねむ: なのに、あえてリスクを@拾う方に進むなんて…
Nemu: And yet all of you deliberately turn headlong into that risk…

ねむ: …でも、お姉さんなら…か…
Nemu: …But if Big Sister were here…she…

ねむ: …………
Nemu: …

静香: …どう？
Shizuka: …What do you think?

ねむ: 時女一族…困った人たちだ…
Nemu: …You Tokime Clan girls are incorrigible.

ねむ: わかったよ…
Nemu: Very well, then…

青葉 ちか: クレオパトラさんは@このままでいいんですか…？
Chika: Will it be alright if we leave Cleopatra like this…?

ねむ: このままでいいよ@それが一番だ
Nemu: That would be for the best.

青葉 ちか: え…!?
Chika: Huh…?!

ねむ: クレオパトラは蛇の毒で@死亡したとされている
Nemu: Cleopatra is said to have died from a snake bite.

ねむ: 経緯はどうあれ@歴史に記された通りの結果…
Nemu: The precise circumstances are irrelevant. What matters is how it is recorded in history.

ねむ: だから、このままでいいんだ
Nemu: It will be sufficient to keep things as they are, then.

静香: …わかったわ
Shizuka: …Alright.

静香: 行くわよ！
Shizuka: Then let's go!

静香: 歴史の大きな流れは@変わっていないんでしょ？
Shizuka: As long as we don't alter major historical events, then we're fine, right?

静香: だったら、そこには@触れないようにすれば…！
Shizuka: Then as long as we don't touch them…!

Battle Shammannesses of Kamihama:

鶴乃: カササギが露と千鶴を結んだのは@本当にあった伝承なんだよね？
Tsuruno: The story of the magpie bringing Tsuyu and Chizuru together is true, right?

ねむ: その通りだよ
Nemu: Yes, that's correct.

鶴乃: このまま放置してたら@おかしくなると思う…？
Tsuruno: Then is it really okay to leave things like this…?

ねむ: 難しい問題だね
Nemu: It's a difficult problem.

ねむ: 現代から過去に来た僕達に@何の変化もない以上は
Nemu: We've entered the past, and in doing so caused no major changes in the future.

ねむ: 細かい歴史に差異が生じても@自動で修復される証拠だと思う
Nemu: I think it proves that even with small discrepancies, history repairs itself.

ねむ: ただ、露と千鶴に関することは@あまりに致命的過ぎる
Nemu: But this issue between Tsuyu and Chizuru is very critical.

ねむ: タイムパラドクスが生じる前提で@動くべきだと思うよ
Nemu: We should work under the premise that this may cause a time paradox.

Basically, when something has been emphasized several times in the text, we should treat it as such. The way I understand it is that the present is the latest point in the timeline, so Mikoto couldn't have seen Infinite Iroha from the future because it hadn't happened yet, Infinite Iroha couldn't have seen her friends going back to save her because it hadn't happened yet, and in the same logic, Madokami couldn't have seen Akumura because she hadn't happened yet. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

I totally understand what you're trying to say here – Nemu emphasizes the need to avoid changing history so often that it's quite reasonable to assume her concerns are warranted. That's what you're trying to say, right? But I actually don't think it's reasonable. Nemu has never been established as an expert in time travel or anything like that. We're not given any reason to trust her reasoning on the matter. And furthermore, we're given plenty of reason to think she might be wrong. Why? Because they do do things that, according to Nemu, are a change to history… yet it all still works out. And also because the spell to create sweet dreams just circled around and around without an origin.

This is now just my opinion, but I personally believe that Occam's Razor should favour the option where history didn't change – especially since The Chiming Bell that Transcends Time clearly establishes that a stable time loop already exists in the Magia Record world. Thus, I think it's simpler to presume that all time travel is a stable time loop in the absence of evidence otherwise. Homura's time travel and Amaryllis's time travel have that evidence in spades, so clearly there's no stable time loop there; but Puella Historia? I've yet to seen hard evidence that history changed. There's admittedly no clear evidence of a stable time loop either (unlike in the Tart event), but still. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 20:09, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

I believe the Tart events are in a stable loop, but Historia seems different since we never get those closed loop confirmations and Nemu says history was changed. Regardless, if the timeline has to auto-correct, as Nemu mentions in Historia, I can't see how it wasn't changed. What would there be to auto-correct if they were always meant to be there, but I guess we never see it auto-correct really. I guess the Pillar of Tomorrow has the girls say "Oh yeah, I remember hearing that legend of Historia... I didn't know it was Yachiyo from the present actually", so I'll relent. I'm not saying that if the events of the past weren't altered significantly, it wouldn't create an altered history, like the Tart villains tried, but the Pillar of Tomorrow Historia legend was enough to convince me that what's happened in Puella Historia was a closed loop. I'm sorry, it's just that these time travel things are confusing.

How about the sections in this article are just listed with their Historia Event names with a paragraph when the event starts saying something like "This account details the events as experienced by the (insert group of time-traveling Kamihama girls). The narrative's text consistently treats the girls' actions as changing history, with characters like Nemu explicitly warning against causing temporal paradoxes and stating that the universe will 'auto-correct' minor discrepancies. However, the ultimate outcomes of these events still align with known historical records. This dichotomy between the characters' perception of altering history and the resilience of the timeline's major events has led to the theory that the time travel actually formed a stable loop, meaning the girls' interventions were always a part of history. Thus, a definitively separate 'original' timeline is not explicitly confirmed in the main continuity." ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 09:50, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

That makes sense. We have some weak evidence that history was changed and some slightly stronger evidence that there was a stable time loop, so your suggestion works well. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 15:57, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Historia Kyubey

Now, the matter of Kyubey and why it can't apply to why the other time goddesses (Mikoto and Infinite Iroha) could have supposedly seen the historia girls and not said anything. In the Sweetheart of Pax Romana, Nemu says:

ひめな: あれっ？@そういえば！
Himena: Huh? That reminds me!

ひめな: こっちに来てから一度も@キュゥべえと会ってなくない？
Himena: Have any of you spotted Kyubey even once since we arrived?

時雨: …たしかにそうかも
Shigure: …Now that you mention it, no.

ねむ: キュゥべえにしてみれば
Nemu: To Kyubey,

ねむ: 未来からきた君達は@正体不明の魔法少女だ
Nemu: we are unidentified Magical Girls from the future.

ねむ: 敵か味方もわからない以上@今は静観しているのかもしれない
Nemu: As he cannot ascertain whether we are friend or foe, he may be observing us from afar.

ひめな: あ、そっか…契約してない子が@いきなり現れたんだもんね
Himena: Ah, makes sense… He’s got these Magical Girls who never contracted with him just appearing outta nowhere.

時雨: その点は@アマリュリスも同じだよね？
Shigure: It’s the same with Amaryllis, right?

アマリュリス: おっしゃる通りです！
Amaryllis: You’re indeed correct!

アマリュリス: 過去に戻ってクビウス様と@最初にお会いしたときは
Amaryllis: When I returned to the past and met Master Cubius again for the first time,

アマリュリス: 事情説明に苦労しましたね
Amaryllis: it was rather difficult for me to explain the situation to him.

時雨: ――っ!?
Shigure: Hm?!

Now, this raises the question as to why Kyubey acts differently towards Homura and Mabayu, or alternatively, it can be a case of why can't Kyubey tell Homura and Mabayu are from the future? Kagome's wish or Nemu's doing can't even be used as reasons because Amaryllis also says that Kyubey avoided her initially.

Naturally, the real reason is that the writers hadn't considered to apply Kagome's wish to this situation, but what the text has decided to go with is that Kyubey can tell when Magical Girls are from the future, except when it's Homura and Mabayu.

My point with this is that this doesn't work with Iroha and Mikoto, because both of them would have reacted in their own ways to that information. The text never has anyone like Iroha say "I knew this would happen, I saw you girls going back and saving me." The amount of how the universe changed was fixed by the universe itself, as Nemu said it could do over small instances, but the major things affecting a lot of people had to end the same way. Such is the case with Cleopatra dying from snakebite or from poison dart wounds. It is possible that in the original timeline she really did die to snakebite, but the actions of the Tokime girls from the future changed it to where she died of puncture wounds to the neck, but it doesn't matter since the public perceived it as a snakebite due to the location of the puncture wounds. In the end, I sincerely believe that the text wants us to believe that the kamihama girls did alter history and made the lives of the girls in the past just a little better, even if they had to suffer and die in the end. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

When it comes to the reason why Kyuubey didn't ignore Homura and Mabayu… well, in the case of Homura, it was given a good reason not to ignore her. Homura's first action in the last timeline was to kill Kyuubey, right? And on top of that, she was actively trying to ensure that Madoka, with her incredible potential, did not make a contract with Kyuubey. So, Kyuubey had every reason to engage with her even though he didn't remember making a contract with her. As for Mabayu… I actually think her situation isn't even remotely the same? Scene 0 is admittedly quite vague, and I've still only seen the portion of it that was released in Magia Exedra, but my current reading of it is that Mabayu may have contracted in early March/May, before the time loops got started, putting "Film MT" (I think that's the one?) as a prequel to the time loops.

Then there's the question of why Iroha didn't say "I knew this would happen" or whatever. I don't think that's hard to handle, to be honest. After all, the time travellers were broadly trying to interfere as little as possible, for the most part. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suppose that the parts Iroha saw just happened to be those where the time travellers weren't present. I don't know how much we actually know about Infinite Iroha's apparent ability to see into the past, but I'm pretty sure she's not omniscient – she can theoretically see anything, but only actually sees what she goes looking for. Of course, none of this can be taken as proof that history didn't change or anything. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 20:09, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll believe that. It helps that when Puella Historia happens, they'd barely registered things enough to know basic stuff, plus Mikoto never really went to look at those cases specifically, so I believe we're good now. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 09:54, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

Now what?

I have a suggestion on how to move forward.

1. I put the previously known "Altered History" as just the normal history of the Magia Record universe, and add some text acknowledging that the historia girls time traveled there. Additionally, I put the original history, which is very vague from what we can confirm, into the Original Timeline, so that we won't have to repeat the same points many times, like how Tart's events in Magia Record don't need to repeat Catherine's death since it's the same as the original. This would also mean putting the "Himiko and Cleopatra were actually Magical Girls" as simply trivia from the production notes since it was never confirmed.

Alternatively, if I've misinterpreted, or forgotten something, I'd love to know some other suggestions too. ~ Sweet Beanie (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

How about - we don't treat MagiReco proof as PMMM proof? I mean, we've had OriMagi vs MagiReco inconsistencies already, like "does it happen in 2011 or about 20 years after the bald parrot was discovered". Hell, MagiReco itself is inconsistent with itself at times. Look at the very beginning of Madoka's MSS:

まどか: わたし、神浜市って ちゃんと来たの初めてかもっ
Madoka: You know, I think this is my very first time in Kamihama City.

ほむら: うん、私も… 結構、大きい町なんだね
Homura: Me too... The city is, um, rather big, isn't it.

まどか: ね！
Madoka: It really is!

まどか: どこか行く？
Madoka: Where should we go?

ほむら: どこ、か…
Homura: That's...a good question...

And this section from Another Story Chapter 5:

ほむら: 魔法少女を救う秘密が 神浜市にあるのなら…
Homura: If the secret to saving Magical Girls is really in Kamihama City...

ほむら: 鹿目さんを救うための何かだって 見つかるかもしれない…
Homura: Then maybe I can find something to help me save Madoka.

FILENAME: text_Another Story Part  (38).txt

まどか: え？ 神浜市？
Madoka: Huh? Kamihama City?

ほむら: うん 鹿目さんは行ったことある？
Homura: Yeah. Have you been there, Madoka?

まどか: 何回かあるよ！ マミさんとも行ったことあるし…
Madoka: A few times! Mami's taken me.

ほむら: どんな町だった？ 私、まだ行ったことなくて…
Homura: What kind of place is it? I've never been there before...

まどか: どんな… なんていうか、普通の町かな？
Madoka: It's, umm...just an average city, I guess.

まどか: でも、最近はお店も増えて すごくオシャレになってきてたよ
Madoka: Though it's gotten a lot of new shops and cool places to visit lately.

Or this section of Main Story Chapter 6, where Momoko mentions she formed KaMoRe after Yachiyo disbanded Mikazuki Beta:

レナ: 解散の理由が分からないって… ももこは聞かなかったの？
Rena: So you dunno why she split the team up... Did you ever ask her about it?

ももこ: 聞いたさ、そりゃもう 食らいついて離さないぐらいにね
Momoko: I did. There was no way I could let it go.

ももこ: だけど、あの人は 何も答えちゃくれなかった
Momoko: But she wouldn't tell me anythin'.

ももこ: 『答える必要はないわ』って それで終わりだ
Momoko: She just said, "There's no need for me to answer that." and that was that.

ももこ: あとは、そうこうしてる間に キュゥべえが町からいなくなって
Momoko: After that, Kyubey vanished from the city.

ももこ: 魔女が神浜に増え始めて 問い詰める暇もなくなっちまった
Momoko: Witches began poppin' up everywhere. I had no time to go chasin' her for answers.

ももこ: かえでと…
Momoko: Then there was Kaede...

かえで: んゆ…
Kaede: *Sob*

ももこ: レナを守るっていう 大事な仕事ができたからね
Momoko: And you too, Rena. I had an important job to do, protectin' you two.

And this one, from Yachiyo's MSS, where Yachiyo and KaMoRe are all buddy-buddy, all while first meeting Tsuruno:

ももこ: レナは随分ゴネましたけどね
Momoko: No problem. Rena grumbled about it a bunch.

レナ: だって！ レナが相手しても…
Rena: I just said I could take her!

かえで: レナちゃん やちよさんにお願いしようよ！
Kaede: Come on, Rena, we really  should ask Yachiyo for help!

かえで: だってあの子 なんかすごそうだよ…
Kaede: I mean, look at this girl... She looks tough.

？？？: もー！ いつまで待たすんだよー！
???: Cut the chit-chat! [freeze:0.5]How long are you gonna stall?

かえで: うひぃ！
Kaede: Eep!

やちよ: …あなた、お名前は？
Yachiyo: ...What's your name?

？？？: よーやく聞いてくれたね！ 遅いよもう！
???: Ugh, finally someone asked! TOOK YOU LONG ENOUGH!

？？？: では…コホン…
???: *Ahem* Allow me to introduce myself...

鶴乃: わたしの名前は由比鶴乃！ 由比家の栄光を取り戻す女！
Tsuruno: The name's Tsuruno Yui! I'm here to restore my family's name!

鶴乃: 大いなるわたしの野望のために あんたらを倒させてもらうから！
Tsuruno: No one will stand in my way... I will defeat you here and NOW!

ももこ: 野望？
Momoko: Family name?

レナ: なにそれ 意味わかんないから教えてよ
Rena: What on Earth? Seriously, explain yourself.

鶴乃: やだ！
Tsuruno: Don't wanna!

There is no justification for Magical-NonMagical Himiko and Cleopatra more sensible than "it's just a writing inconsistency". Especially given the team's past record. EPF (talk) 20:34, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure where I got this idea from, but I thought Momoko was actually working with Kaede and Rena in parallel to being a member of Yachiyo's team – so after the breakup of Yachiyo's team, the only difference was that the trio formally became a team, instead of just working together from time to time. And I think Crescent Memoria also weakly supports this theory too, as it notes Momoko's propensity for helping out random magical girls. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 20:41, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

Hm. I checked it again. "after that" refers to Mikazuki Beta disbanding.

レナ: ねぇ、ももこ…
Rena: Hey, Momoko...

ももこ: ん？どうした？
Momoko: Huh? What is it?

レナ: それからみんなはどうしたの？
Rena: What happened to the others after that?

レナ: ももこが レナたちの手伝いじゃなくて
Rena: That was around when you stopped just helping us out...

レナ: 正式にチームを組んだのって それぐらいの時期よね…？
Rena: And we officially became a team, right?

レナ: 急にやちよさんとも仲悪くなるし 何かあったの…？
Rena: What happened to make things between  you and Yachiyo go so bad?

And here's more of the MSS:

やちよ: あ、座って待っててね
Yachiyo: Have a seat. I'll be right back.

かえで: お邪魔しまーす…
Kaede: Thanks for having us...

レナ: しまーす…
Rena: Yeah, same here...

かえで: おっきいお家だね～ ももこちゃん
Kaede: Wow. This is a really big  house, huh, Momoko?

ももこ: やちよさんの家って 下宿やってたみたいだからね
Momoko: Apparently, Yachiyo's grandmother  used to run a boarding house here.

レナ: ふーん
Rena: Interesting...

ももこ: …どしたの？ ひょっとして緊張してる？
Momoko: What's up with you...? Don't tell me you're nervous.

レナ: はあ？緊張なんてしてないわよ！
Rena: Me? Nervous? No way!

かえで: 私はちょっとしてる…
Kaede: I'm a little nervous...

レナ: かえではビビりだから いっつも緊張してんだろー
Rena: Yeah, but you're always nervous.

かえで: だって！年上のお姉さんだし、 魔法少女でも大先輩でしょ？
Kaede: Of course I am! She's older than us, and  has been a Magical Girl way longer than us.

かえで: そりゃ緊張するよ～… えーしないの？レナちゃん
Kaede: So of course I'm nervous... Aren't you, Rena?

レナ: え？ んー、まあ１ミリくらいは…
Rena: Hm?  Yeah maybe a tiny bit.

かえで: ほらー
Kaede: See?

レナ: 人の家に行くの、 あんまりないからってだけ！
Rena: But only because I don't go to other peoples' houses often!

ももこ: まあ、ふたりはあんまり 面識ないからね
Momoko: I guess you guys haven't really talked to her before, huh?

かえで: うん… ２回くらいだよね
Kaede: Yeah... I think I've met her twice.

レナ: あー…最初は 新西の廃ビルで魔女と戦った時か
Rena: True... The first time was that abandoned building in Shinsei, where we fought a Witch.

ももこ: あの時はたまたまだったね バッタリっていうか
Momoko: Yeah, that was pretty surprising. She just came crashin' in.

かえで: でも、ももこちゃんは 前から知り合いだったんでしょ？
Kaede: But you knew her before that, right, Momoko?

ももこ: そうだね、２年くらい前かな アタシが魔法少女になりたての頃
Momoko: Yeah, it's been two years now. I met her when I was a rookie Magical Girl.

ももこ: 今でも、キミたちの手伝いが ないときは
Momoko: Even now, when you two aren't around...

ももこ: 同じチームで 魔女を狩らせてもらってるよ
Momoko: She and I still hunt Witches together.

かえで: 『魔法少女のベテラン』って ちょっと変な響き…
Kaede: It's strange to think of any of us as a  "veteran" when we're all just girls, but...

かえで: でも、６年もやってるって すごいよね～
Kaede: ...she's been doing it for six years  already... It's really incredible.

I guess that's somewhat supported indeed? That Madoka segment is still inconsistent, though EPF (talk) 21:05, 25 October 2025 (UTC)

WIP

This is migrated from the comment at the top of the page, as I believe it would be more useful if it is visible without clicking Edit. ~ Celtic Minstrel (talk) 21:59, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

Reference Keys

• tom - Pillar of Tomorrow - <ref name='tom'>Shown in [[Magia Record Story Puella Historia Pillar of Tomorrow|Pillar of Tomorrow]]</ref>
• ale - Mirage of Alexandria - <ref name='ale'>Shown in [[Magia Record Story Puella Historia The Mirage of Alexandria Arc|The Mirage of Alexandria]]</ref>
• pax - Pax Romana - <ref name='pax'>Shown in [[Magia Record Story Puella Historia The Lovers in the Pax Romana Arc|The Lovers in the Pax Romana]]</ref>
• yam - Heiress of Yamatai - <ref name='yam'>Shown in [[Magia Record Story Puella Historia The Heiress of Yamatai Arc|The Heiress of Yamatai]]</ref>
• rak - Rakshasi of Tibet - <ref name='rak'>Shown in [[Magia Record Story Puella Historia The Rakshasi of Tibet|The Rakshasi of Tibet]]</ref>
• iku - Battle Shamaness of Kamihama - <ref name='iku'>Shown in [[Magia Record Story Puella Historia The Ikusamiko of Kamihama Arc|The Battle Shamanesses of Kamihama]]</ref>
• vik - Valkyrie of Vik - <ref name='vik'>Shown in [[Magia Record Story Puella Historia Valkyrie of Vik Arc|The Valkyrie of Vik]]</ref>

Steps

1. Add all information that should be in the original timeline to it. Any points not specified in the altered timeline can be assumed to have happened the same way
2. Add references where they're needed
3. Explain on top of each section of the altered history why the alteration happened
4. Add descriptors where they're needed on top of the list.
5. Put the information about Mitsune recovering the ability to walk thanks to Rumors in some other part of the timeline. (Thanks to the power of the Rumors, Mitsune has now recovered her ability to walk.)
6. Shorten the Tart stuff and put dates on it, cross-referencing the original Tart on Timelines
7. Shorten and split the paragraphs for the Valkyries of Vik, Rakshasi of Tibet, Battle Shammannesses of Kamihama, Heiress of Yamatai, Tart.
8. Maybe rename this to /Pre-Arc 1 to not have the titles be inconsistent or too long.
9. Add Himiko's servant/whatever who became a Magical Girl into the story.

Ashita's

How do we know Jun found the map 2 years ago? My estimates are slightly more broad, at 2-3 years. Both Jun (HS 1st year in DB, and in Magia Archive) and Mikura (HS 2nd year in Magia Archive) were in middle school during the events of Jun's MSS, so that places her at Middle 1st or 2nd, and Mikura 2nd or 3rd. GitH happened when Jun was in Middle 2nd, two years before DB. Is there anything that would prove GitH and Jun's MSS happened the same year? EPF (talk) 14:58, 24 October 2025 (UTC)