Talk:Timeline

Killing Kyubey

Whoever said that is overthinking this. Homura only killed Kyubey twice in the fifth timeline as stated. The March 18th event only happened in the fourth timeline, and we can infer Homura did something else in the fifth timeline, maybe by distracting Kyubey or Mami somehow. Would you mind if I edit this to add in other timelines? -- Universalperson 18:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Have fun editing, I'm going to be busy looking for moon pictures.

Whichever anon is doing the majority of the editing for this, I believe you've got quite some time missing in the middle of timeline 5 there. A full moon is shown at the beginning of episode 7, right after the reveal that the magical girls are actually their soul gems in episode 6. This implies that it occurs on April 16th or 17th, not as late as the 24th. I don't think Shaft would mess this up- they're making a point to get it accurate. The day after that (around April 18th), Kyousuke returns to school, and Hitomi gives her ultimatum. That night is the Elsa Maria fight. Later the same night, Sayaka runs away in the rain, and Homura talks to Kyouko about Walpurgis Night. I think a time skip follows that, based on the moon.AzureThunder 23:17, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I've been trying to figure out what's going on with that. After Homura and Kyouko have the talk in homu home, we see Hitomi hit on Kyousuke. Then Madoka goes to Sayaka's home and learns she didn't come back last night, and runs off to look for her. That's the day after the full moon. Next is the Sayaka vs Homura confrontation, which has a crescent moon. So if there's a time skip, it happens around 9:40 ep 8. Then we see Madoka in the park running around searching for Sayaka, so the skip went by with Madoka still running around, no indication of Sayaka contacting her or her parents, or any police search, and the transition looks as if she went off fighting the same night as a reaction to seeing the couple.

This page needs some major edits now that the last two episodes have revealed that our timeline isn't timeline 5. Looks like the subtle differences between episode 1 and the end of 10 weren't just for show. It's still hard to tell a lot of things though.

E11

The funeral narration states that Sayaka went missing on the 12th, but Sayaka was seen by several people after this, and when Madoka visited her parents the apparent last-seen date was the 20th. Either the 12th is a mistranslation, it refers to when she started cutting school rather than when she was last seen, or the timeline is wrong. The moon on the 12th was a half moon, but there was a full moon when Sayaka returned to her house after the bridge scene.

The audio clearly says 12日 (juu-ni nichi), so it is not a translation error. --KFYatek 08:29, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Because it's been officially stated that Sayaka went missing on the 12th, all the events that took place before she went missing from home and school (the night she killed Elsa Maria) have to be redated to before the 12th. I know quite a bit of effort was put into indentifying the dates from the moon phases, but the spoken statement ought to take precedence.--60.53.91.70 08:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC) anon

Yeah, this is a problem. And pushing it back makes Homura's comment to Kyouko about Walpurgis coming in two weeks fall about three weeks before it. I'll have to get the BD versions and see if they fixed anything, although the chances of that are low. KM 17:09, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

A band-aid reason for calling timeline 5 timeline 5 has been added to avoid the confusion of making timeline nomenclature different than what has been used in all the speculah and analysis so far.

Clocks

E12: When Madoka meets Mami and Kyouko after making her wish, the clock reads exactly midnight.

Numbering Additional Timelines

Proposed standard for numbering timelines other than the ones listed: ISO PWI ????:2011 Numbering Additional Timelines

Integers will be used for timelines 1 through 5 as numbered in the chart of timelines, and timeline 6, which is the new universe timeline in which Homura meets Madoka's family.

Other timelines will use decimals, similar to software version numbers. They will be numbered in chronological order when possible. If chronological order does not make sense, they will be numbered in the order in which Homura perceives them. If the order is not known, a letter may be used until enough evidence is available.

Example:

Timeline 4: As seen in ep 10, Homura wakes up, fixes her eyes and hair, kills witches, and attempts to defeat Walpurgis alone.

Timeline 4.1: As seen at the end of ep 10, Homura shoots Kyubey and encounters Madoka.

Timeline 4.1.1: An example-only timeline that occurs between 4.1 and 4.2, but was only discovered after 4.2 had already been named.

Timeline 4.2: An example-only timeline that occurs after 4.1, but before 5.

Timeline 4.x: The timeline the Oriko manga takes place in, which happens after Homura changes her hair, but before Madoka eliminates witches in timeline 5. (Note: There has been speculation that this timeline is part of a separate story continuity, and may not fit in with the anime timelines.)

Timeline 5: The main timeline most of the anime takes place in.

I'll ask the obvious question...what is the reason we need this kind of detailed numbering system? Has there really been confusion about what occurs in sequence within a given timeline from an anime, or has the confusion centered more around what event is coming from which source? What I think would be helpful is adding new charts. For instance, one for BD/DVD additions like the Drama CD from Vol. 1 that add more detail to the timelines. But it should be a separate chart so someone who has only watched the anime doesn't get confused about all the things they supposedly "missed." You can also expand the original anime timeline chart to include notations of where chronologically additions from the BD/DVD extras occurred to place the timing, but have all the details in its own chart. Needs it anyways, based on the level of detail we're seeing. Same for Oriko, a separate one for its own timeline, with a notation of when approximately we think it occurred in the original timeline chart. --randomanon 14:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

There's been confusion about which events happen in which timelines, whether things like the end of ep 10 are separate timelines, which timelines the "countless repetitions" fall between, and why timeline 5 isn't the 5th timeline Homura experienced. The detail makes sure don't have to keep changing the system if new spinoffs or flashbacks add more timelines. Even if no new canon material comes out, it might help fan fiction make more sense. The chart idea would be great. The current one is pretty old, and more charts like that would make this stuff easier to understand. KM 15:15, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the problem you're describing stems more from speculah about there being more timelines than we see in episode 10 and general confusion about time travel altogether. Part of it is a translation issue. Both gg and Nutbladder referred to Homura traveling "countless" timelines in episode 11, strongly implying more. Yesy provided a more correct translation of "many" which leaves the door more open to either interpretation. Either way you look at it, we don't have any evidence to be able to number the timelines anything other than what we have now, TL1-5 and maybe TL6 if you refer to Madoka's new universe at that, though you could argue it's TL1 in a brand new universe, since she remade everything so TL1-5 never existed. The sub-numbering seems like an onerous task, and I'm not sure how much users are going to adopt it, but I'm not one to stop someone from being more organized. --randomanon 17:02, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Speculated numbers on timelines

We should probably put at least some guesses in. The only two guesses I can make are that the main timeline is timeline 12 (there are 11 pictures in the OP's bit about the lost future) and that it's timeline 15 (there are 14 strings of fate attached to Madoka during Kyubey's lecture to Homura). Of these, I think the latter's likely to be correct, since the OP scene cuts away without revealing whether there could have been more. Anyone got any others? Magic9mushroom 09:40, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

OP pic only shows 5 timelines. Oriko makes 6 if we consider it canon and that's all we know for sure. --randomanon 13:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I was talking about the bit where Madoka and Kyubey are sitting in the foreground while a slideshow of magical girl Madoka is playing in the background. There are 11 slides there. Magic9mushroom 23:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Link the pic? I don't see it on this page or discussion page.

I suspect it's a much larger number and the scene was done that way for artistic reasons, but the strings of fate thing is still a very interesting observation. KM 18:27, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

You suspect there are more than 16 timelines? Any particular reason? Magic9mushroom 23:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with KM. I would bet on a number closer to what Shroom guessed. I mean... I've seen it around, people who think Homura spend decades, centuries, hell, even millenia trying to save Madoka. 13 timelines, one moth a timeline, equates to a year and a month. I think that, given Homura's experience (plently, but still not enough to predict everything), and her mild changes in personality (she is still the same, after all, beneath the layers of coldness and distance: someone trapped for much longer would have had their true personality marred and slashed), it's a very reasonable number. A much higher number... 100 timelines would be more than eight years, a thousand would be eighty three! Honestly, I think it's way too farfetched, not even Chuck Norris would have been to keep it's sanity, despite all the dovey love for Madoka and all. --BrickBreak 00:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd say it's closer to 1 1/2 months per timeline, assuming Walpurgis Night is actually May 1st. There's also the fact that Madoka's power scales extremely fast with timelines (in timeline 1 she was of similar power to Mami and died fighting Walpurgis Night even with help, while in 4 she one-shotted it), so assuming some form of exponential scaling Madoka would end up at "universe-scale power" in the mid-teens (the maths I used: a witch can normally affect an area maybe 100m in diameter, but timeline 4 Kriemhild Gretchen was capable of affecting the whole Earth (10,000 km), giving a 100,000x boost in power for 3 timelines. Hence, after 15 timelines Madoka would be able to affect an area approximately 10^27 metres across, which compares quite well with the 8.8*10^26 m size of the observable universe). Magic9mushroom 01:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

On speculah: I would caution everyone on speculating too much on little details. Remember Gen Urobuchi on the ending only had it as "Homura fighting outside of Japan," but with all the anime production effects, people speculated elaborate scenarios that just were not what he envisioned when he wrote the ending. I believe this is likely the case with people making up numbers of cycles without any real basis for it except "it's more than shown." This is probably true but determining a number on the evidence I've seen is impossible. It is literally picking a number out of the hat. --randomanon 03:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

With her statistics, being practiced enough at acting to come off as naturally cool and stylish to everyone despite having been THAT awkward in the beginning, the way Homura has all the math memorized perfectly despite homework being the least of her problems, the elaborate setup against Walpurgis (which surely didn't work on the first try, and requires gathering a lot of gear that would be tricky to steal), and the way she's treating Madoka, 16 seems low. I'd guess more like the 40-80 range. But there's nothing concrete and 16 is plausible speculation. If it still isn't added by then, I'll make a speculation section with both when I revise the page after watching the new BD.

As for the scaling, how do we know whether range scales linearly with power level? Also, TL1 Madoka+Mami appeared to reach a double kill (no sign of Walpurgis, Homu and Kyubey were safe running around the battlefield, and it visually looked like the dead Walpurgis scenarios and not like the live Walpurgis ones), but TL3 Madoka+Homu did only slightly better. If Madoka's power had been cubed, she should've performed better than that. So my guess is she's scaling linearly, two timelines equals double Madoka, and in TL4 either used the wish to power up or crossed a threshold. Suppose quadruple Madoka has just enough raw power to simply brute force it, but triple Madoka would have to take risks and wear Walpurgis down the hard way.

If power scales linearly (Madoka's power after X timelines = X * Madoka's power after 1 timeline) then there would have to have been trillions of repetitions to bring her power up to universe-ending levels from planet-ending levels (Earth is tiny compared to the solar system, let alone the universe). I don't think Homura would be capable of surviving billions of years of Groundhog Day with her sanity intact. As for range/power scaling, if one assumes that power scales exponentially with number of timelines then any polynomial scaling of range with power will fall out as a constant term (as (e^x)^n = e^(x*n)).

Of course, the Doylist explanation here is one of most writers not understanding the sheer magnitude of the difference in scale between a planet and the universe, but in terms of Watsonian explanations, I think my logic is pretty sound. Magic9mushroom 09:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

There's two wild cards in play regarding ending the universe. First, Madokami is using her wish to end the universe, rather than her normal magical girl power. We don't know much about how wishes work, and Homura's was able to wreak havoc with entire timelines. Second, she's accumulating all the grief from all the magical girls that ever existed, so if either the soul gem or resulting witch can use that grief as an energy source, that's universe-scale power. So it's possible to end the universe with linear scaling, but only with a one-time-use gimmick. For range of effect, suppose range depends on the witch's body size instead of power level, and the full power Gretchen only appeared to be slightly larger than Earth. Then you get a Galactus situation, with the exception that creating a paradox (like Madoka destroying her own witch) causes the universe to collapse on its own (only the first domino has to be in range). KM 11:04, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

For timelines we know about in the entire franchise, the second drama cd seems to be in a new, unknown timeline, so we've got that, the first 4, the one at the end of ep 10 that looks like episode 1 but had minor differences, the main one, and Oriko, for 8. KM 05:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I should mention there's some doubt among fans as to whether the second drama CD is canon (Madoka wouldn't be the first anime with a mix of canon and non-canon in the same extra materials). This is partly because a Hidamari Sketch writer did the script and partly because of some noted discrepancies. Two that I can think of is Kyubey referring to the girls as "Maho Shojo Tai" which he never does in the anime. The other is Kyubey being treated like a pet, e.g. told to get off the table, whereas in the anime he's treated as a peer, e.g. allowed to stay on the table as long as he wishes. That said, I'm inclined to agree that there are more timelines but trying to identify how many exactly or even ballpark is really just guessing. From what I've seen of Gen Urubochi's style in interviews, I tend to think he doesn't have an exact number in his head (it's exactly 37 times, guys!) but more like he leaves the number option open to allow for the writing of side-stories. He may have a lower and upper limit in his mind, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a wide range between the two. --randomanon 07:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Me neither. I just have a really hard time believing Homura spent more than, say, five years (40 timlines, thanks Shroom for correcting me on the time per timeline) trapped in that cycle. After seeing the comments here, I see that's obviously not the case, but I though that most people who believed in ridiculously high numbers did so because of her statement that she watched people (well, Mami) die "countless" times. --BrickBreak 13:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

There is another thing that points to a relatively small number - the main anime timeline is the first time Kyubey explains to Homura how she's making Madoka more powerful. Kyubey's rather smart, so a large number of timelines before he figures it out would seem to strain belief (despite his lack of retaining memory, there's the whole monkeys-on-typewriters issue). Magic9mushroom 09:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Gen gives an interview here: http://pastebin.com/BHgRHdZu where he offhandedly notes Homura's timeline count to be "approaching 100." Worth note? 169.229.108.128 03:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

The timeline needs revision

In Gen's Final Draft of the Madoka script, he reveals that the Episode 5 Riverbank scene happened on a Saturday.

After school (only half-day on Saturdays),Sayaka lies down a patch of grass by the riverbank, looking up to the blue sky. Madoka sits next to her. 放課後(土曜なので半ドンです)、土手の芝生に寝転がって青空を見上げているさやか。隣に座っているまどか。

It makes sense to, considering the time of the days shown in those scenes. Sayaka and Madoka are lounging around on a day time rather than school, and next day Sayaka visits Kyousuke again in day time (whereas she usually visit during dusk otherwise).

Based on this clue, as well as following the rest of the final draft, this following dates I have confidence in:

• Mar 16 W Homura discharge from hospital (episode 10 calendar)
• Mar 25 F Homura transfer in (episode 10 calendar)
• Mar 31 H Episode 3, Mami dies
• Apr 01 F Sayaka Contracts (dusk)
• Apr 02 Sa Episode 5, Riverbank (afternoon)
• Apr 03 Su Violin rooftop (day), Kyouko and Sayaka' initial first (night)
• Apr 04 M Madoka and mom talk (night)
• Apr 05 T Sayaka realize Kyousuke discharge from hospital (dust), Kyouko Sayaka overpass fight (night)
• Apr 06 W Church talk (dusk)
• Apr 07 H Kyousuke returns to school (morning)
• Apr 08 F Hitomi confesses (dusk, and she said she'll give Sayaka one day), Sayaka turns to a Witch (midnight)

- Prima 02:36, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't the Japanese school year end in March, though? Ritsu Miki 07:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)